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Old October 28, 2006, 10:54 AM   #1
timothy75
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Hi Power confusion

My local gun shop currently and has before gotten FN HP's NIB in 9mm and .40sw and sells them for 389$. I've double checked and they are not FM's but real FN's at least on the box and gun. So what gives, online Browning and FN's go for around 700$ how can they be so cheap? They are not FEG's either, they say FN on the frame. Did FN ever make an ecomony model or something? Thanks
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Old October 28, 2006, 11:18 AM   #2
shamus005
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do they have "BROWNING" on the frame?

When Browning stopped importing hi-powers for a short period, they were still imported from FN but without the browning label. It's the browning label that makes the guns $600+. FN brownings without the browning label do run for less, or did.

I'm recalling all of this from memory of previous topics. I may be wrong.

research continues...
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Old October 28, 2006, 11:20 AM   #3
dogtown tom
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Buy Three!!!

As you may know, the Hi Power is and always has been made by Fabrique National in Herstal, Belgium. Browning for many years was the sole US importer and marketer of FN produced firearms. Browning has never manufactured firearms, they only market them. So, in short, all Browning Hi Powers are FN's, but not all FN Hi Powers are Browning's. Although they are commonly referred to as a "Browning Hi Power" (even overseas) they are not stamped "Browning" except for those imported into the USA/Canada

Several years ago the parent company of Browning (FN) opened a US subsidiary (FNH USA) to market firearms to the law enforcement/military community (leaving Browning to focus on the sporting market). As part of that strategy they began importing Hi Powers with only the FN rollmark- no Browning rollmark. Apparantly they changed their mind because FNH USA is no longer going to import the Hi Power (Browning will continue).

This led to FNH USA discounting the FN Hi Power and flooding the market with affordable Hi Powers. CDNN (a major distributor of overstock firearms) purchased several hundred and had been selling them in the $400-450 range for the last year or so. Most distributors have sold out of the 9mm and only have the .40cal.

I bought the matte finish 9mm SFS version for $400 NIB at a gunshow in Dallas last spring. I liked it so much I bought another two weeks later. I'm still looking for the polished blue 9mm version.

Internet rumor is that FN is either dropping or dumping the Hi Power. I seriously doubt that. Marketing types pull this stuff all the time. Remember New Coke?

If I had the $$$ I would buy all I could find for $400.
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Old October 28, 2006, 12:16 PM   #4
RevolverLover
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Quote:
Internet rumor is that FN is either dropping or dumping the Hi Power. I seriously doubt that. Marketing types pull this stuff all the time. Remember New Coke?
FN is not going to make anymore under the FN name but will continue to import them under the Browning name.
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Old October 28, 2006, 04:08 PM   #5
saands
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CDNN has FN HP's (only in 40S&W) in their latest catalog for $399 ... I'm pretty sure that they give FFL's a discount, so I think that is likely where these came from. They are likely to be the real deal and will certainly satisfy the need for a GP35 that any rational person would have if they weren't already an owner

$400 is a GREAT deal but not too good to be true. Now ... if they were NIB for $300 or less these days, then I think that I would start to get suspicious and probably demand to know from where they originated.

Saands
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Old October 31, 2006, 11:34 AM   #6
Alerion
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For what it's worth, one of the Indianapolis gun shops had two new Hi-Powers on display with one priced around $400 and the other at around $675. I asked what the difference was and the owner said the first one was an "SFS" and the second one was an "S". Unfortunately I didn't ask what the functional difference was between the two. I was more interested in the gun I was actually purchasing and I'm used to different model guns within the same line having different prices.

Also, as part of this "Hi-Power History Lesson," John Moses Browning (JMB) was an employee of Fabrique National (FN) when he designed the Hi-Power. In fact JMB dropped dead in his office at FN. In his honor FN named the gun after him, the (John Moses) Browning Hi-Power. Also supposedly in his honor, but as more of a marketing device since JMB's name was becoming recognized, FN also created a Browning division to market guns largely in the US. Browning was never a separate company from FN nor did it exist during JMB's lifetime. So all of the FN produced Hi-Powers are properly called Browning Hi-Powers no matter how they are marked (as could accurate copies of the design if FN didn't hold trade-rights to the name.)

As far as the marking on the guns go, FN has been pretty sporadic in recent years. Proving that the Browning name still sells, the most desireable guns (at least in the US) are the guns marked "Browning", second are the guns marked "Fabrique National" in large letters, and finally are the guns without a large rollmark on the slide simply marked "FN" as the manufacturer. However even though the markings have some effect on the value of used guns as collectables don't expect any real difference in the price of a new gun.

FN is about as sporadic in marketing the guns as they are in marking them. They've gone in and out of production several times in recent years. It seems like when Hi-Powers go out of production long enough for demand to grow high that FN does another production run. After that batch begins to sell out FN takes them out of production again. Anyway, that last part is just my opinion.

Tom
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Old October 31, 2006, 01:45 PM   #7
Bill DeShivs
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John Browning was not an employee of FN. He was associated with FN, as they produced his designs, and was paid for them.
FN had no relation to Browning Arms. John Browning owned Browning Arms long before his association with FN, Remington, or Colt.
Browning had FN make the Browning guns under contract.
The FN version of the high was known as the GP 35. It was not marked as a "Browning", though it may have had "Browning's patent" markings. The Browning HP was made by FN and marketed in the US by Browning Arms of Morgan, Utah.
Bill
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Old November 1, 2006, 04:20 PM   #8
Alerion
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Browning

Quote:
On November 26, 1926, while working on a self-loading pistol design for FN in Liege, he died of heart failure in the office of his son Val. The 9 mm self-loading pistol he was working on when he died was eventually completed in 1935, by Belgian designer Dieudonne Saive. Released as the Fabrique Nationale GP35, it was more popularly known as the Browning Hi-Power. The Superposed shotgun was completed by his son Val A. Browning

Until his death, Browning designed weapons for Colt, Remington, his own company and Fabrique Nationale of Belgium. In 1977, FN acquired the Browning Arms Company which had been established in 1927, the year after Browning's death.
OK, So I make mistakes...

JMB died in his son Val's office at FN in Liege while working on the Hi-Power.

FN named the gun the GP35 but it became better known as the Browning Hi-Power. My point in my previous message being that it was named after the man, not the company. The "Hi-Power" name apparently came from the GP being called the Grande Puissance (High Power) in France.

FN's GP35 is the original version of the Hi-Power and they've certainly sold plenty marked as "Browning." The final design was completed by Dieudonne Saive, for FN, nine years after JMB died.

JMB owned John Browning Guns. John Browning guns sold primarily gun designs, not so much guns. Interestingly, Winchester bought many of Browning's designs for no purpose other than to keep other companies from aquiring them. Winchester only actually produced around 25% of the Browning designs it owned. Browning Arms was formed in 1927, the year after his death. In 1935, Val left Belgium and returned to Utah (the Brownings were Mormons) to become president of Browning Arms.

Sorry for any mis-information I provided earlier!

Tom
__________________
Well, sometimes we’d travel right down the green river
To the abandoned old prison down by Adrie hill.
Where the air smelled like snakes and we’d shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill. -John Prine, Paradise
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Old November 1, 2006, 04:37 PM   #9
Alerion
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power

A little information on the models I ran across while looking at JMB information. The "still manufactured" may be a little out of date...at least for today. I've edited out some information so you might want to look at the link for the full story. I wonder if the Hi-Power Standard is the "S" model?

Quote:
Genuine Browning Hi-Power P-35s are still manufactured by FN Herstal (imported to North America by Browning) of Belgium and Portugal, and by FM (licensed to Fabricaciones Militares) of Argentina. The successful design remains one of the most influential pistols in the history of small arms. The Hi-Power has inspired a number of clones (including Charles Daly of the Philippines & USA, and FEG of Hungary), copies (including Arcus of Bulgaria), and other firearms that borrow features from it (chiefly the linkless cam system). FEG makes both an exact clone and versions with modifications to the barrel, linkage, and slide stop which are incompatible with genuine Hi-Powers.

The Browning L9A1, a military version of the P-35 Hi-Power, is still utilized by several branches of the UK military forces. The Hi-Power was the pistol of choice for the British Special Air Service (Special Forces), throughout the Cold War era. In Britain, the pistol is often referred to as the Browning 13-shot.

The Mark I, Mark II, Mark III, Hi-Power Standard, Hi-Power Practical, and Capitan are among the best-known models of the P-35 developed over the last 50 years. A wide variety of options and features are available on the P-35 models.

The HP-SFS (Safe-Fast-Shooting) is a current variation on the Hi-Power Mark III with a modified firing mechanism. After loading the weapon, the hammer is pushed forward which automatically activates the safety catch. When the shooter is prepared to fire, the safety is pressed down with the thumb, releasing the hammer to spring backwards into the usual, single-action position. Magazines are interchangeable with the Mark III and others.

The Detective is a short-slide HP produced by FM. The Detective slide group is also available without the frame, and is interchangeable with other FM and FN Hi-Power P-35s.

The DA & DAO Models were first produced in the 1990s by FN. The DA model is double action, and the DAO model is "double action only," both versions differing from the usual single-action operation of the P-35. These designs have been marketed under the name of HP-DA and BDA-9. The DA and DAO models retain many features of the P-35, and both are available in full-sized and compact versions. These models resemble the P-35, but the most distinguishing feature is the extended SIG-Sauer style trigger guard. Many parts are interchangeable with the P-35, but the magazines (although similar) are not. The compact versions also utilize shorter magazines. FN HP DA is the standard sidearm of the Finnish Army as 9.00 PIST 80-91.

The BDM Model was first produced in the late 1990s by FN. The Browning Double Mode pistol incorporates many features of the DA model, but can be switched from double action to single action by the flip of a lever. These models do not strongly resemble the classic design of the P-35, lacking its sleek lines. Magazines are usually interchangeable among the full-sized DA, DAO, and BDM models.

Both the DA / DAO models and the BDM model borrow features from the SIG-Sauer SIG P220 pistols marketed under the name Browning Double Action (BDA) in the 1970s. Beretta 84 has also been marketed by Browning under the name BDA 380.
Tom
__________________
Well, sometimes we’d travel right down the green river
To the abandoned old prison down by Adrie hill.
Where the air smelled like snakes and we’d shoot with our pistols
But empty pop bottles was all we would kill. -John Prine, Paradise
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