Gun Show Loophole

mayosligo · July 26, 2009, 06:25 PM

I just watched the CBS's 60 minutes piece on the gun problem in the United States. Once again I hear more about the "gun show loophole." I have bought several guns at gun shows and have always had a background check before I could purchase, but on the 60 minutes they descibed a gun show as a place where anyone could by a gun without a background check and insinuated that AK47 are being purchased by gang members, drug cartels and criminals.

What is the gunshow loophole?

alloy · July 26, 2009, 06:31 PM

In a few states like here in Virginia, I could sell another private individual a gun, with no background check required, does not need to go thru an FFL. Advertised in the newspaper, local bargain flyer, bulletin board in a grocery store, yard sale, whatever. Private face to face sales are allowed without informing the government.

Or...I could set up a table at a local gun show as a private individual and do the same.

Re4mer · July 26, 2009, 06:45 PM

Face to face transactions have always been legal between private individuals depending on state. Sounds like the 60 minutes report is just trying to hype the show for ratings and shock value.

Hellbilly5000 · July 26, 2009, 06:53 PM

its librel left wing b/s is what it is
besides I am sure I speak for almost any of us if we are at a gun and think the guy is a gangbanger were just not going to sell it to them or we will make them pay the 25 bucks at a table to have someone do an nics check on them

pendennis · July 26, 2009, 08:53 PM

While local laws may vary, face-to-face gun sales within the same state are legal without using a FFL.

Because some gun shows allow non-FFL sellers, this is referred to as a "loop hole" by the socialists/collectivists (Chuck Schumer, etc.). They would have only FFL sales, and ban private transactions entirely.

This piece on "60 Minutes" is nothing but rerun of the earlier "hit piece".

skeezix · July 26, 2009, 08:59 PM

Noise

lockedcj7 · July 26, 2009, 09:28 PM

If the liberal media keeps pounding away at this non-sense anti-gun crap for another three years they might meet less resistance to some legislation with teeth. That's what they're thinking and that's why they are starting the all-out media assault now. After the national CCW legislation died, I've seen a resurgence in anti-gun reports from the local paper all the way up to the networks. I don't believe in conspiracy theories but I also don't believe in coincidence.

Hugh Damright · July 26, 2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

What is the gunshow loophole?

I think what they call a "loophole" is actually a limit on federal government, not a loophole at all ... if a person sells a gun to another person in the same State, then there is no federal power to intervene, i.e. they cannot stretch the interstate commerce issue to cover private intrastate gun transactions.

GringoGrande · July 27, 2009, 12:28 AM

I live in a state that only allows FFL Holders to run tables at Gun Shows, they changed to that in 1997. Prior to that, anyone could set up a table and sell THEIR private owned firearms. BATF basically laid the law down the state that anyone selling firearms for PROFIT will be considered a DEALER in firearms and will be subject to Federal BATFE rules on licensing. There is a kind of UNWRITEN rule that more than 10 gun sales with-in a certain period (I do not know the time frame) will be considered a dealer as well.

I am not sure what states have the FFL Only rule for gun shows. You can get a list of all State Laws from the BATFE internet or snail mail, they send you a CD.

http://www.atf.gov/

So, prior to 1997 in Ohio, anyone could go into a Gun Show and buy from a NON FFL holder, the smart table dealers to cover their butts would at a minimum take a name, addy and birth date of a gun bought or sold.

There were MANY stings on non licensed dealers in that the Fed LE would sell a documented firearm to a NON dealer and if that same non-dealer then re-sold the firearm for a profit, they would nab that seller for selling w/o a license.

The 5 Gun shows I go to anymore, all tables are FFL holders with only a few BUY only C&R tables.

Just recently there was a new series of stings for C&R firearms at the gun shows. 32 arrests from what I hear, I do not know the outcomes.

The C&R License only allows you to COLLECT and not to sell. It only allows a bypass of a FFL Sellers fee on the incoming firearms aka the transaction fees.

The sting was conducted on people with C&R licenses that were selling firearms at the gun shows w/o a sellers permit. The Gun Shows accepted the C&R as a FFL holder (so they are partly to blame for this.)

So the guy that bought 20 Swiss K-31's for $150 each and then sold them at the table for $300 a piece was nabbed for dealing in firearms w/o a sellers license even though he had a valid C&R license. I do believe there is a disposition (sales) limit on C&R licenses. I am not sure the quantity or time frame.

There is also a specific list of C&R firearms and a way to get a possible C&R added to the list. Here is the list:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

I am sure any TV News show will goto a NON FFL holder state gun show to show how people that should not have guns get them. Total BS set up by them by sending a kid that looks 25, or a person in a suit that is a felon or illegal alien or a nut job ???

The left will stop at NOTHING to curtail our right to own and shoot firearms anytime they can.

If you want a really good read, goto the ATF web site and read all the little innocuos laws and loopholes they can nab you under. It will truly open your eyes to how far some will go.

http://www.atf.gov/

Gringo

maestro pistolero · July 27, 2009, 02:59 AM

It is one more redundant, feel good, do nothing law for criminals to disobey. Purchasing and possession of firearms by felons, domestic abusers, drug addicts and the mentally ill are ALREADY federal offenses, whether privately sold or not.

If this were to become law, any person forbidden from buying a gun will still buy it illegally, just as they do now. And the law abiding people will still buy them legally, as THEY do now. So, this law would change NOTHING whatsoever, except to create more burden on the legal owner, more burden and expense to the regulating bureaucracy. It is completely pointless.

Going forward, the fail test for any new gun law should be:

"Does the proposed law impact, limit, infringe, tax, or place any premium on the law-abiding gun owner's freedom to possess, purchase, trade, sell (to a not-disqualified person), practice, train, repair, improve, maintain, transport, store, and have available for immediate use for self defense or any other lawful purpose, ANY ARM THAT IS NOW, OR MAY IN THE FUTURE BE IN COMMON USE?"

YES? THEN THUMBS DOWN. NEXT BILL, PLEASE.

GringoGrande · July 27, 2009, 05:14 AM

maestro pistolero, what law are you talking about ? I and a cpl others are confused at your post///

Kreyzhorse · July 27, 2009, 06:37 AM

There is no gun show loophole. Private sales are, and have been, legal.

GringoGrande · July 27, 2009, 07:01 AM

Maybe where you live, but in Ohio, at ANY gun show, ONLY FFL holders may sell or buy. There are NO face to face sales in Cleveland as it is illegal, in Sandusky where I live, face to face have to fill out basically the same form that BATF has and the person selling has to have it in their files for 12 years, City Law, sfter 12 years, turned in to City Police. So, yeah, some places a face to face is legal, but also some are NOT legal.

Al Norris · July 27, 2009, 07:41 AM

From the OP:

Quote:

I just watched the CBS's 60 minutes piece on the gun problem in the United States.

One can infer from that that we are discussing a National "problem," not a State "problem." And if anyone bothered to actually watch the 60 Minutes (hit) piece, one would know they are targeting National (aka Federal) laws.

So why the confusion over maestros post, Gringo?

GringoGrande · July 27, 2009, 08:35 AM

simply because the loopholes are within states, not feds, feds are very clear, if you sell firearms for a profit, you are considered a dealer.

Many states do not have that rule. So it is a State issue, not a Federal. The states that allow face to face private sales tables at gun shows are and will be the ones targeted by the left wing News, not in states that require FFL's only to sell and buy at gun shows.

They will target the poor sap that just wants to unload his collection to gain some money and if he makes MORE money than what he paid, then he is a dealer in the feds eyes. There in lies the trap, because both the seller and the so called non legal buyer both get nabbed by State and Fed LE.

My point is, the News targets the easy to make a mistake in states aka Nevada, Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania etc..... not NY, NJ, IL (Cook County), MD, CA. Wash DC. They are targeting the feds via the point of least resistance, which is states that do not have FFL only sales.

Hugh: That is only if the said state declares their 10th Amendment Rights, otherwise, the feds control the state laws as well via leverage and pressure. .

Gringo

Uncle Buck · July 27, 2009, 08:50 AM

Did anyone else bother to write to the producers of that crap show? I only watched it because I was wondering what type of hit job they were going to do.
I wrote to them and asked them when they were going to do a piece on gun laws that were not enforced? What about the criminal who steals a gun from someone who owns it legally? What about the criminals who also steals cars? But most importantly, what about the Attorney Generals who let these criminals off with no, or little, punishment? We have enough laws dealing with firearms, how about enforcing the laws we have and leave the honest folks alone.

Steve1911 · July 27, 2009, 09:05 AM

Quote:

What is the gunshow loophole?

It is a figment of their imagination.

I watched that pathetic excuse for a report too... I was so aggetated by the end, my wife was worried about me...

The long and short of it... It is where they want control ... but is not theirs to have.

The loophole is the reference to the ability of the people that live in a state to sell firearms to others that live in that same state without going through a dealer.

You have to watch closely and see what lies they are trying to sell you ...
All the guns the man bought at the gunshow, came from INSIDE the gunshow. I know he said he bought one before he got in there, but why then did it have the orange zip tie that they put on a gun when you take it into the show? Every one of the guns that go into the show get those, so why would one have one that he bought outside?

If you only buy from private individuals at the show... you don't need a background check... Just like if you lived next to me, I could sell you one that I have with no paperwork. As long as I don't have any reason to believe you are a felon or angry or drunk, etc... which is just common sense.

The other aspect of the show that irritated me was the "classroom" situation. Giving someone a gun (that they have never shot or carried) in an unproven holster in a enormously too long shirt is ignorant... No wonder they all had trouble getting them out... Sorry Mr. BG, let me pull up my dress to get into my hip holster... Really... Then... they all froze ... (Since none of them had any training... And I am not using the few hours of pathetic instruction that I saw on there... That is not anything. None of them had real training.)

And the airsoft guy... Really? I shoot alot of airsoft, so I should be a Navy Seal...? Uh.... that is not how it works...

That show was made to brainwash the public further. If they can control ALL gun sales, even those inside the states... That is a GIANT leap toward confiscation... Because belive it or not... All sales are tracked...I know they say they are not...

So they are not right? I mean has the government ever lied to the public? Surely not...

buzz_knox · July 27, 2009, 10:11 AM

Did they use the same guy from the ABC hit piece? The brother of a VT victim who kept changing his story from interview to interview as to the purchases he made (the numbers he bought, the time, the amount, all changed so it's a question as to whether any of it actually happened)?

Hugh Damright · July 27, 2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

That is only if the said state declares their 10th Amendment Rights, otherwise, the feds control the state laws

I hope you are joking. The feds do not have authority over all matters, and a State does not have to declare their 10th Amendment rights to have them.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 27, 2009, 10:55 AM

The idea of the gun show loophole is that an organized show brings together folks in a convenient location for unsupervised private sales. Thus, it is an atttractive nuisance, so to speak.

The politicians and antigun media like to give the impression that most of the sales at show or all of them are without NICS check.

BTW, at the gun show, the FFL sellers just run NICS checks. You see all variants of folks from scary folks from the Hills to similarly scary folks from the innner city. If they pass, they should be sold to. Profiling is antithetical to the RKBA.

Can't just sell to FOGs.

mayosligo · July 27, 2009, 06:11 PM

So basically they are calling the sale between citizens the gun show loophole. This has nothing to do with the gun show. What a bunch of BS.

maestro pistolero · July 27, 2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

maestro pistolero, what law are you talking about ? I and a cpl others are confused at your post///

Sorry. Any proposed law that would prevent lawful private party sales.

Quote:

Loophole
So basically they are calling the sale between citizens the gun show loophole. This has nothing to do with the gun show. What a bunch of BS.

Precisely. There seems to be an unwritten rule: Gun banners can never call something what it actually is, because nobody would swallow the hook.

July 26, 2009, 06:25 PM	#1
mayosligo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 301	Gun Show Loophole I just watched the CBS's 60 minutes piece on the gun problem in the United States. Once again I hear more about the "gun show loophole." I have bought several guns at gun shows and have always had a background check before I could purchase, but on the 60 minutes they descibed a gun show as a place where anyone could by a gun without a background check and insinuated that AK47 are being purchased by gang members, drug cartels and criminals. What is the gunshow loophole? __________________ I was court-martialed in my absence, and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence. - Brendan Behan

July 26, 2009, 06:53 PM	#4
Hellbilly5000 Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2009 Location: RGV, Tx Posts: 787	its librel left wing b/s is what it is besides I am sure I speak for almost any of us if we are at a gun and think the guy is a gangbanger were just not going to sell it to them or we will make them pay the 25 bucks at a table to have someone do an nics check on them __________________ And death climbs the steps one by one, To give you the rose that's been burnt by her son, Point me to the sky above I can't get there on my own, Walk me through the graveyard Dig up her bones

July 26, 2009, 08:59 PM	#6
skeezix Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Location: Newark, Ohio Posts: 61	Noise Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; July 27, 2009 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Noise - GM

July 26, 2009, 09:28 PM	#7
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	If the liberal media keeps pounding away at this non-sense anti-gun crap for another three years they might meet less resistance to some legislation with teeth. That's what they're thinking and that's why they are starting the all-out media assault now. After the national CCW legislation died, I've seen a resurgence in anti-gun reports from the local paper all the way up to the networks. I don't believe in conspiracy theories but I also don't believe in coincidence. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

July 27, 2009, 12:28 AM	#9
GringoGrande Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2009 Location: Sandusky, Ohio Posts: 131	I live in a state that only allows FFL Holders to run tables at Gun Shows, they changed to that in 1997. Prior to that, anyone could set up a table and sell THEIR private owned firearms. BATF basically laid the law down the state that anyone selling firearms for PROFIT will be considered a DEALER in firearms and will be subject to Federal BATFE rules on licensing. There is a kind of UNWRITEN rule that more than 10 gun sales with-in a certain period (I do not know the time frame) will be considered a dealer as well. I am not sure what states have the FFL Only rule for gun shows. You can get a list of all State Laws from the BATFE internet or snail mail, they send you a CD. http://www.atf.gov/ So, prior to 1997 in Ohio, anyone could go into a Gun Show and buy from a NON FFL holder, the smart table dealers to cover their butts would at a minimum take a name, addy and birth date of a gun bought or sold. There were MANY stings on non licensed dealers in that the Fed LE would sell a documented firearm to a NON dealer and if that same non-dealer then re-sold the firearm for a profit, they would nab that seller for selling w/o a license. The 5 Gun shows I go to anymore, all tables are FFL holders with only a few BUY only C&R tables. Just recently there was a new series of stings for C&R firearms at the gun shows. 32 arrests from what I hear, I do not know the outcomes. The C&R License only allows you to COLLECT and not to sell. It only allows a bypass of a FFL Sellers fee on the incoming firearms aka the transaction fees. The sting was conducted on people with C&R licenses that were selling firearms at the gun shows w/o a sellers permit. The Gun Shows accepted the C&R as a FFL holder (so they are partly to blame for this.) So the guy that bought 20 Swiss K-31's for $150 each and then sold them at the table for $300 a piece was nabbed for dealing in firearms w/o a sellers license even though he had a valid C&R license. I do believe there is a disposition (sales) limit on C&R licenses. I am not sure the quantity or time frame. There is also a specific list of C&R firearms and a way to get a possible C&R added to the list. Here is the list: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm I am sure any TV News show will goto a NON FFL holder state gun show to show how people that should not have guns get them. Total BS set up by them by sending a kid that looks 25, or a person in a suit that is a felon or illegal alien or a nut job ??? The left will stop at NOTHING to curtail our right to own and shoot firearms anytime they can. If you want a really good read, goto the ATF web site and read all the little innocuos laws and loopholes they can nab you under. It will truly open your eyes to how far some will go. http://www.atf.gov/ Gringo __________________ If you don't stand behind our troops, then how about you standing in front of them. Next time you see a vet or active duty USA Military person, just say thank you, they will know what it is for.

July 26, 2009, 06:45 PM	#3
Re4mer Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2008 Posts: 240	Face to face transactions have always been legal between private individuals depending on state. Sounds like the 60 minutes report is just trying to hype the show for ratings and shock value.

July 26, 2009, 08:53 PM	#5
pendennis Junior member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 572	While local laws may vary, face-to-face gun sales within the same state are legal without using a FFL. Because some gun shows allow non-FFL sellers, this is referred to as a "loop hole" by the socialists/collectivists (Chuck Schumer, etc.). They would have only FFL sales, and ban private transactions entirely. This piece on "60 Minutes" is nothing but rerun of the earlier "hit piece".

July 27, 2009, 02:59 AM	#10
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	It is one more redundant, feel good, do nothing law for criminals to disobey. Purchasing and possession of firearms by felons, domestic abusers, drug addicts and the mentally ill are ALREADY federal offenses, whether privately sold or not. If this were to become law, any person forbidden from buying a gun will still buy it illegally, just as they do now. And the law abiding people will still buy them legally, as THEY do now. So, this law would change NOTHING whatsoever, except to create more burden on the legal owner, more burden and expense to the regulating bureaucracy. It is completely pointless. Going forward, the fail test for any new gun law should be: "Does the proposed law impact, limit, infringe, tax, or place any premium on the law-abiding gun owner's freedom to possess, purchase, trade, sell (to a not-disqualified person), practice, train, repair, improve, maintain, transport, store, and have available for immediate use for self defense or any other lawful purpose, ANY ARM THAT IS NOW, OR MAY IN THE FUTURE BE IN COMMON USE?" YES? THEN THUMBS DOWN. NEXT BILL, PLEASE.

July 27, 2009, 05:14 AM	#11
GringoGrande Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2009 Location: Sandusky, Ohio Posts: 131	maestro pistolero, what law are you talking about ? I and a cpl others are confused at your post/// __________________ If you don't stand behind our troops, then how about you standing in front of them. Next time you see a vet or active duty USA Military person, just say thank you, they will know what it is for.

July 27, 2009, 06:37 AM	#12
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	There is no gun show loophole. Private sales are, and have been, legal. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

July 27, 2009, 07:01 AM	#13
GringoGrande Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2009 Location: Sandusky, Ohio Posts: 131	Maybe where you live, but in Ohio, at ANY gun show, ONLY FFL holders may sell or buy. There are NO face to face sales in Cleveland as it is illegal, in Sandusky where I live, face to face have to fill out basically the same form that BATF has and the person selling has to have it in their files for 12 years, City Law, sfter 12 years, turned in to City Police. So, yeah, some places a face to face is legal, but also some are NOT legal. __________________ If you don't stand behind our troops, then how about you standing in front of them. Next time you see a vet or active duty USA Military person, just say thank you, they will know what it is for.

July 27, 2009, 08:35 AM	#15
GringoGrande Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2009 Location: Sandusky, Ohio Posts: 131	simply because the loopholes are within states, not feds, feds are very clear, if you sell firearms for a profit, you are considered a dealer. Many states do not have that rule. So it is a State issue, not a Federal. The states that allow face to face private sales tables at gun shows are and will be the ones targeted by the left wing News, not in states that require FFL's only to sell and buy at gun shows. They will target the poor sap that just wants to unload his collection to gain some money and if he makes MORE money than what he paid, then he is a dealer in the feds eyes. There in lies the trap, because both the seller and the so called non legal buyer both get nabbed by State and Fed LE. My point is, the News targets the easy to make a mistake in states aka Nevada, Florida, Texas, Pennsylvania etc..... not NY, NJ, IL (Cook County), MD, CA. Wash DC. They are targeting the feds via the point of least resistance, which is states that do not have FFL only sales. Hugh: That is only if the said state declares their 10th Amendment Rights, otherwise, the feds control the state laws as well via leverage and pressure. . Gringo __________________ If you don't stand behind our troops, then how about you standing in front of them. Next time you see a vet or active duty USA Military person, just say thank you, they will know what it is for.

July 27, 2009, 08:50 AM	#16
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Did anyone else bother to write to the producers of that crap show? I only watched it because I was wondering what type of hit job they were going to do. I wrote to them and asked them when they were going to do a piece on gun laws that were not enforced? What about the criminal who steals a gun from someone who owns it legally? What about the criminals who also steals cars? But most importantly, what about the Attorney Generals who let these criminals off with no, or little, punishment? We have enough laws dealing with firearms, how about enforcing the laws we have and leave the honest folks alone.

July 27, 2009, 10:11 AM	#18
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	Did they use the same guy from the ABC hit piece? The brother of a VT victim who kept changing his story from interview to interview as to the purchases he made (the numbers he bought, the time, the amount, all changed so it's a question as to whether any of it actually happened)?

July 27, 2009, 10:55 AM	#20
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The idea of the gun show loophole is that an organized show brings together folks in a convenient location for unsupervised private sales. Thus, it is an atttractive nuisance, so to speak. The politicians and antigun media like to give the impression that most of the sales at show or all of them are without NICS check. BTW, at the gun show, the FFL sellers just run NICS checks. You see all variants of folks from scary folks from the Hills to similarly scary folks from the innner city. If they pass, they should be sold to. Profiling is antithetical to the RKBA. Can't just sell to FOGs. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 27, 2009, 06:11 PM	#21
mayosligo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 301	Loophole So basically they are calling the sale between citizens the gun show loophole. This has nothing to do with the gun show. What a bunch of BS. __________________ I was court-martialed in my absence, and sentenced to death in my absence, so I said they could shoot me in my absence. - Brendan Behan