Does anyone in MI [legally] open carry in pistol-free zones?

[bradofhill]

Greetings,

In Michigan, it is legal for someone with a concealed pistol license to open carry in pistol-free zones other than federal buildings.

Has anyone here actually done that, and what has your experience been in doing so?

(I'll pre-empt questions of legality by linking this MI AG opinion explaining why this is ok.)

[Gun 4 Fun]

I'm afaid they your info is incorrect. You cannot open carry in pistol free zones here in Mich. This is an e-mail that I got from MCRGO. They stay on top of all the current laws, and e-mail them to members. NUmber three includes the PFZ. Casino's are forbidden places to carry, either open or ccw.



MICHIGAN COALITION FOR RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERS
"Promoting safe use and ownership of firearms through
education, litigation, and legislation"
Since 1996
MCRGO Weekly E'News - Answers to FAQ's


Monday, July 20, 2009
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Open Carry of a Pistol
by Daniel Bambery

Open carry of a pistol is best described as what it isn't. It is not concealed. Some courts have described open carry as visible or open to observation. Carrying a pistol in a holster outside clothing uncovered by coat or shirt is clearly open carry. Certain people are forbidden to even own firearms, but that is an issue for another day.


I

There is no blanket prohibition on the carrying of a pistol by a person who can legally own a pistol. Therefore we have to look at what types of carrying of a pistol are forbidden. It is a crime to...

1. carry a concealed pistol except in your own dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by you without a concealed pistol license (CPL).
2. carry a pistol in the passenger compartment of a vehicle, whether or not concealed, without a CPL.
3. carry a pistol in certain places without permission or CPL, unless you are a LEO (a depository financial institution, a church or other house of religious worship, a court, a theatre, a sports arena, a day care center, a hospital, an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act).
4. carry a pistol with unlawful intent.
5. carry a pistol while bow hunting without a CPL.
6. carry a pistol while less than 18 years old unless hunting or at a shooting range.
7. carry a pistol while intoxicated.
8. carry a pistol in any area frequented by wild animals without a hunting license or CPL.
9. carry a firearm while working as a volunteer conservation officer.


II

If a person has a CPL s/he is allowed to carry everywhere in Michigan without violating the criminal law. A person with a CPL does not forfeit their right to 'open carry' where appropriate. However there are certain places a person with a CPL cannot carry without violating the restrictions of the CPL and committing a civil infraction. (A second offense is a misdemeanor.) There are limited exceptions such as law enforcement officers (LEO's) and retired judges. These are the "Pistol Free Zones":

1. A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school.
2. A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
3. A sports arena or stadium.
4. A bar or tavern that gets 50% of its income from the sale liquor by the glass unless an owner or employee of the business.
5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a place of worship, without permission.
6. An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more.
7. A hospital.
8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
9. A casino.


III

Michigan State University, the University of Michigan and Wayne State University were all established by the Michigan Constitution and given some legislative powers. They have all forbidden the possession of firearms on their campuses. MSU allows CPL holders to carry in the open areas of the campus. Violations of these rules are punishable as violations of university rules and can result in heavy sanctions for students and employees and barring from the campus for others.


IV

All courts in Michigan are required by the Michigan Supreme Court to have a "Court Security Plan". Most courts forbid the carrying of weapons by anyone not a LEO. Violations of these prohibitions are neither crimes nor civil violations but are punishable as contempt of court.


V

A private person can set their own rules for people on their property. If a private property owner (not a government of public agency) forbids the possession of weapons on their property, violation of that rule is punished under the trespass statute. A person must be asked (told) to leave before any legal consequences can attach.

Occasionally a state regulated business is required by the state to forbid the possession of firearms. Casinos must not allow anyone, even their own security personnel, other than LEO's and armored car guards to carry a firearm on their premises. A person attempting open carry at a casino would be ejected. It is the interplay between these rules that is often confusing. For example, a person without a CPL cannot open carry in a sports arena; and, commits a crime if he/she does so. While a person with a CPL is also forbidden to carry in a sports arena but only commits a civil infraction if s/he does so.

Common Sense Guide to Michigan Gun Laws
by M. Carol and Daniel Bambery

NOW AVAILABLE. Every book is current through the date of the order. Modern digital printing techniques allow constant updates so the reader can be confidant that the book they receive contains all recent revisions in the law. It discusses federal case law including the Heller v District of Columbia decision from the United States Supreme Court. This is an easy to read, informational handbook that answers questions about lawful gun ownership in Michigan. The book is aimed at reaching shooting enthusiasts, sportsmen, firearm owners, hunters, and anyone with a desire to learn more about Michigan's firearm laws and heritage. It is written in a style that provides you with additional reference for more information on gun ownership issues.
This book satisfies the firearms and the law education requirement for renewal of a concealed pistol license. Price $24.20 includes shipping. Send check or money order to:
Bambery Law Press, 1124 South Geneva Drive, DeWitt, MI 48820.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most recent (July 2009) County by County CPL report is now available for download from the Michigan State Police web site. According to the MSP report, as of July 8th, 2009 there were 201,700 concealed pistol license holders in Michigan. Click here to download.

[bradofhill]

That's a nice email, but unfortunately paraphrased. I'll walk us through this real quick but I don't want this to become a legal debate - it isn't really. Here are the relevant references from the Opinion of AG referenced in my original post:

First, we have Section 28.425o, Act 372 of 1927, which lists all of the places you're not allowed to carry concealed:

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.

Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

[typical list of locations: school, hospital, dorm, etc.]
----------

Now we get to the interesting part with Section 750.234d, Act 328 of 1931, which lists all the places you're not allowed to carry:

750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

Sec. 234d.

(1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

(b) A church or other house of religious worship.

(c) A court.

(d) A theatre.

(e) A sports arena.

(f) A day care center.

(g) A hospital.

(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

(2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

(3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
----------

Notice the areas I have emboldened above, indicating the exemption of CPL holders for carrying firearms in the listed areas. The first reference only applies to concealed pistols, whereas the second one only applies to pistols. Therefore, and confirmed by the AG, this indicates that a person with a license to carry a concealed pistole, while not allowed to carry concealed in the pistol-free areas, is indeed allowed to carry in those areas listed in my second reference.

I hope that ends the legal question, and that someone here has a personal experience they are willing to share.

[Gun 4 Fun]

While I posted an e-mail from MCRGO, it was paraphrased only to limit it's length, but was written by a lawyer for the MCRGO. I recently went through a citizens academy here, and according to the prosecuting attorney for our area, and the LE department in which I took this course, MCRGO is spot on in its letter.

Don't take the AG's post off the net at face value, call him. I have. The net isn't up to date. For instance, in section 1, a financial institution is off limits, but that is no longer correct. CPL's can now carry there.

Contact MCRGO direct. They have a team of lawyers on board to help keep Mich. CPL holders from getting into trouble, especially since the writings and opinions on the net are very hard to determine.

[bradofhill]

Some good advice there, Guns. I pulled the opinion from the Michigan state website, and it was written by Jenny when she was the AG. What I see is exactly what was written in opinion #7113, still it can't hurt to run it through current legal experts to verify how current it is. I suspect this is on the arcane side of MI law since most people looking into open carry are doing just that, likewise for concealed carry but rarely looking for intersections.

I guess this gets moved to the legal section...

[Gun 4 Fun]

Call Mike Rodgers office. He is a good guy and is pro gun. His people will usually do what they can to help you stay out of trouble. I didn't mean to make this a legal battle either, but I have been through this with several people lately. This kind of stuff is a big reason why I joined MCRGO. I knew they had legal experts to keep us all up to date. The net is full of opinions from some of our worst enemies unfortunately. I do go there to read sometimes though, even though I know a lot of it is outdated.

Sorry if I seemed combative or anything. Just wanted to try to help others with the facts that I have been given recently.

[bradofhill]

As in this Mike Rogers?

And yeah we're cool here, Guns. I appreciate your calling my understanding into question based on what you know - an act that can only serve to increase overall accurate gun law knowledge and limit ammunition for gun-haters

Still very Interested if anyone else here knows about this...

[Gun 4 Fun]

Yea, that's him. While he's a congressman now, his people are very helpful. My wife just called his office a week or so back, and they were as expected, helpful. I like to call him, because he is on our side, and will give you the straight skinny on gun laws, instead of possibly trying to discourage anyone from exercising their rights.

[bradofhill]

I tried to email through mike's website but was rejected due to being in a different district. I may try calling tomorrow.

I emailed MCRGO to see what they have to say about it. Also found this post (and the Michigan Gun Owners Forum):

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43072

Interesting if nothing else. I'll post back with what MCRGO sends me.

[Gun 4 Fun]

It is mind numbing sometimes. No two authorities seem to agree with one another. I wonder if they do it sometimes just to keep us in the dark, and cover their own butts if they make an arrest in one of those places, on one of us.

I am going to stick with what I have been told by Rodger's office, when he was AG, our local PA, and LEA.

MCRGO is actively pursuing the rights of people to open carry, and has put on several open carry walks, town hall meetings etc. I believe they are on top of all legal aspects with their team of attorneys.

The site you posted is interesting, but I noticed that a lot of them are going by the same info from the state web that you did. It is outdated and should be kept current, plus a lot of that stuff is an opinion. If you are arrested for a gun violation, they will tell you that it's your responsibilty to know all of the laws. Kinda hard to do, when they don't all seem to agree.

I know from past experience that the MSP isn't alays correct, even thouh they are the ones whe set most of the CPL laws here. That's easy to prove. Call them on several different days and see how many of their answers match.

It seems to me, that with most states having shall issue laws, that they would make very simple and straight forward laws that are easy for a layman to understand, instead of having a bunch of guys interpreting it on the net, at a club, or over a beer. Too many people rely on internet advice, then wind up in trouble. Those giving advice won't be there with you in court either, so I will trust MCRGO or others in a position to know like Mike Rodgers, and I'll feel pretty safe in the advice they give.

[ninjatoth]

what the freak?You can't carry a gun where wild animals frequent?I have a pistol range on private land in the woods in Michigan where alot of wild animals frequent.So it's illegal to even go to my pistol range with a pistol?

[ninjatoth]

I have some questions and quirks about my great state of michigan.I own handguns legally,but under question 16 of the cpl permit(I have A mental illness techically)I cannot achieve a cpl,so any open carry I would have to be careful about.Also,1 quick question in the gray area:I know you have to open carry in the woods without a cpl,and I know it says you can conceal carry without a cpl on land or business owned by you.But,what about other people's private property?I often go to my parents 20-30 acres to shoot,do I have to respect the open carry laws as if I were on state land?

[ethernetweb]

How often is the Michigan Compiled Laws database updated?
http://legislature.mi.gov/(S(1owjxgb...aq#MCLUpdating

The Michigan Compiled Law online is updated irregularly, but you can always see how recent it is by examining the right side of any page's header.

Legislation on the site is updated daily. During periods of heavy legislative activity, some documents may not be available for up to a week after they are presented in chambers.

[theghostrider]

The law is very clear. The MCRGO email is incorrect.

MCL 750.234d makes an exception for people who have CPL's. If you have a CPL, then you may legally carry in those zones. You may not carry concealed as per MCL 28.425o, so you must therefore carry openly. Yes, people have done it. However, understand that it doesn't mean you won't have problems with LEO who do not know the law, or prosecutors with an agenda.

It's legal, and if you disagree, fine. Just show me where the law says it's illegal.

ETA:

This was from the MCRGO email/newsletter/ "Answers to FAQs" dated Oct. 20, 2008

Frequently Asked Question

Q: Are there places in Michigan where open carry is prohibited?

A: MCL 750.234d states: "...a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
(b) A church or other house of religious worship.
(c) A court.
(d) A theatre.
(e) A sports arena.
(f) A day care center.
(g) A hospital.
(h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act..."

The statute does have exceptions. Specifically exempted are:

"(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described (above) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity."

So, owners of the places listed can give permission to individuals to possess firearms on the premises. The statute does not require that the permission be in writing. However, one can easily imagine circumstances under which it might be prudent to obtain written permission. Note that the list of exempt persons includes CPL holders. This means that a CPL holder may carry openly in the places listed, since most of them are on the "Pistol Free Zones" (commonly referred to as "Mass-Murderer Empowerment Zones"). Also, the Separation of Powers Doctrine dictates that the Michigan Supreme Court sets policy for the courts and has delegated the decision regarding firearms to the Chief Judge of each Circuit Court. And, of course, the owner or lessee of real property may always decide who, and under what conditions, enters the property. So, if you have reasonable notice that your firearm is not welcome on some piece of private property, you will be considered to be trespassing if you enter the property with your gun.

Steve Dulan (www.StevenWDulan.com) is a member of the Board of Directors of the MCRGO and the MCRGO Foundation, and a member of the Board of Trustees of the MCRGO Foundation. He is an attorney in private practice in East Lansing and Adjunct Professor of firearms law at The Thomas M. Cooley Law School. as well as an NRA Life Member.