How Many Cartridges Have There Been, EVER?

Brian Pfleuger · October 27, 2009, 11:38 AM

Does anyone even have an fact-based guess?

I found a list that included roughly 375 cartridges, rifle only.

Obviously, there have been a couple few wildcats that no one even knows about except the inventor. The inventor may not have known after he pulled the trigger!

Anywho.... anyone got an fact-based guess?

Metallic cartridges, "english" and metric, rifle and handgun, smokeless and BP, etc, etc...

**Bud Helms** · October 27, 2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

.... anyone got a guess?

2719

Brian Pfleuger · October 27, 2009, 11:50 AM

Let me fix that for ya Bud.

**Mike Irwin** · October 27, 2009, 12:12 PM

Well, I have a number of fact based guesses...

In NRA's technical department cartridge collection and the accompanying database there were almost 2,000 distinct cartridges.

My Donnolly book of cartridge conversions lists probably better than 1,000 cartridges that can be made using other cartridges, pipe, etc.

There was also a book in NRA's technical library (I wish I had swiped it) that was simply a list of cartridges and their dimensions. The author had spent decades putting it together.

I seem to recall it was over 3,000 entries, but I may be wrong about that.

The problem is, there's way to put a meaningful number to it.

Every time I think I'm getting a handle on all of the different cartridges that are out there, I come across a dozen more I never knew existed.

ZeroJunk · October 27, 2009, 12:49 PM

http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_specialorder.html

This is by no means all of them , but it will give you some idea of a lot of stuff that dies are available for.

griz · October 27, 2009, 12:55 PM

Hard to pin down a specific number when it's hard to define when an idea becomes a cartridge. Does a 4 bore count? I'll bet all of them ever made wouldn't fill a closet, but I would count them. How about if somebody made a round, say a 300 Weatherby necked down to 14 cal, but never had a rifle made? I don't think I would count that. But I'll bet there are wildcats where there was only ever one or two rifles made for it.

So I'll say 2713 different cartridges. What do I win?

Technosavant · October 27, 2009, 01:19 PM

One dollar!

Wait, wrong guess for this one...

If you're talking about all of them, ever, don't forget to include the old rimfire, pinfire, and similar obsolete designs that won't show up in any kind of reloading manual.

The surprising thing is that given all those different cartridges, how many (or few) of them seem to have stood the test of time. Not that the now defunct ones were bad, but that they may not have been that much better than others to chisel out a significant share of the market.

Brian Pfleuger · October 27, 2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Hard to pin down a specific number when it's hard to define when an idea becomes a cartridge. Does a 4 bore count?

I suppose a more specific definition may be in order.

For the purposes of this thread,

Shoulder-fired or hand held weapon, metallic case, not including grenade-type rounds should pretty well nail it down.... I think....

**Bud Helms** · October 27, 2009, 01:49 PM

Okay then, 2712.

Or maybe 3481, 'not sure.

**Mike Irwin** · October 27, 2009, 01:57 PM

"Shoulder-fired or hand held weapon, metallic case,"

Do you include externally primed cartridges in that?

Like the Morse, Gallagher, Burnsides, Smith, etc?

How about cartridges for the Gardiner or Hotchkiss manual machine guns?

How about the cartridges for the Requa Battery Gun?

Or the French Millatreuse?

How about cartridges that used a metallic head, but a wound paper body? Like some of Hiram Berdan or Col. Edward Boxer's early efforts, which were adopted by various European states?

Or cartridges like the Chassepot or Dreyse needle gun rounds?

Or, for that matter, modern shotshells, which are generally paper or plastic, but at one time were often metallic?

Getting an idea for how difficult this can be?

Brian Pfleuger · October 27, 2009, 02:06 PM

Holy smokes! You guys sure do ask a lot of questions!

Originally, I was thinking of just variations of the essential modern metallic cartridge. However, well, hell, I don't even know what half that crap you mentioned is, Mike! Somehow I don't think including or excluding them is going to effect the, ur, "accuracy" of any number we might come up with anyway. I kind of thought that there might actually be a list somewhere.

What got the question started was that I've known a few guys in my life that own(ed) several hundred guns at one time. So, I got to thinking that it would be pretty cool if you could say that you owned a gun for every cartridge ever made.

Alright, let's make it (a wee bit) easier, I think. How about this one:

"Enclosed", self contained, however you want to define that exactly, basically some version, whether modern or primitive, of the basic more or less modern metallic cartridge but not necessarily actually metallic but sold or available in reasonable quantities, at some point, within the USA whether commercially or as a relatively wide-spread wildcat.

How's that? Probably just opened a whole new can of worms.... right?

Claude Clay · October 27, 2009, 02:24 PM

eleventy-seven

and i will have you know that i left
no ttone unsurned in finding that out

BuckHammer · October 27, 2009, 03:19 PM

87.

There are 87 cartridges.

DWARREN123 · October 27, 2009, 03:24 PM

A whole bunch!

ZeroJunk · October 27, 2009, 03:50 PM

Let me know when you come up with a hard number. I will go in the shop and make another one.

MTT TL · October 27, 2009, 05:08 PM

I can only prove that there are 100 because that is what is in the box I have in front of me.

HammerBite · October 27, 2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

"Enclosed", self contained, however you want to define that exactly, basically some version, whether modern or primitive, of the basic more or less modern metallic cartridge but not necessarily actually metallic but sold or available in reasonable quantities, at some point, within the USA whether commercially or as a relatively wide-spread wildcat.

I highlighted the weasel words. I don't think you narrowed the scope of the question very much.

In any case, the correct answer to any numerical question can always be approximated by "42" when that number is understood to be in an appropriate number base.

Falcon5NZ · October 27, 2009, 07:15 PM

I have the definitive answer:

∞

("Infinite" for those who forgot the useless bits of maths)

HammerBite · October 27, 2009, 07:26 PM

I suppose that someone could count the index entries in Cartridges of the World, delete the redundant alternative names for identical cartridges and come up with a pretty good documented list.

**Mike Irwin** · October 27, 2009, 08:35 PM

My Donnolly book?

Just guestimating from the index in the back...

Probably closer to 1,500 to 1,800 cartridges listed as being possible conversions.

And I know for a fact that there are many that are not listed in there, including all of the developments since the book was first published and my copy printed in the 1987.

"I suppose that someone could count the index entries in Cartridges of the World, delete the redundant alternative names for identical cartridges and come up with a pretty good documented list."

Uhm...

No. Not really.

I've always said that Cartridges of the World, while an incredibly valuable book, especially for beginners and generalists, should be called "The Not Very Complete At All List of Common Cartridges of the World."

**Mike Irwin** · October 27, 2009, 08:37 PM

Know what?

I'm going to take some pictures of some REALLY interesting cartridges for you, Peet.

Some of them ought to blow your mind and totally alter your concept of what a cartridge is...

Mello2u · October 27, 2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Mike Irwin
Know what?

I'm going to take some pictures of some REALLY interesting cartridges for you, Peet.

Some of them ought to blow your mind and totally alter your concept of what a cartridge is...

Mike do that!

Post lots of pictures.

We love pictures. Include something for scale with each cartridge.

Falcon5NZ · October 27, 2009, 09:25 PM

Are we including variations of cartridges like the M-1 Tracer, M-2 Ball, M-22 Frangible (all for .30-06)? If so this list is gonna get real big real fast.

Nick

Brian Pfleuger · October 28, 2009, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Are we including variations of cartridges like the M-1 Tracer, M-2 Ball, M-22 Frangible (all for .30-06)? If so this list is gonna get real big real fast.

No, as a matter of fact, I personally would count based on the standardized outside and inside case dimensions. There may be a few exceptions that might be best counted separate from each other but inside and outside case dimensions should pretty well eliminate questions of variation within a cartridge. So, 30-06 would be one, even though there are god only knows how many versions while 5.56 and 223 would be two. Who knows, maybe that doesn't even work.

If that didn't work, and for the exceptions to the rule, I would appoint Mr. Mike Irwin as the Illustrious Cartridge Differentiator Czar. He could make those decisions for us all, and cut the salaries of any cartridge that refused to comply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

I'm going to take some pictures of some REALLY interesting cartridges for you, Peet.

Some of them ought to blow your mind and totally alter your concept of what a cartridge is...

That would be cool. Please do.

**Mike Irwin** · October 28, 2009, 10:58 AM

Couldn't get it done last night, and tonight if the first game of the World Series, and I want to see my Phillies beat the hell out of the Yankees, so probably not tonight, either.

October 27, 2009, 11:38 AM	#1
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	How Many Cartridges Have There Been, EVER? Does anyone even have an fact-based guess? I found a list that included roughly 375 cartridges, rifle only. Obviously, there have been a couple few wildcats that no one even knows about except the inventor. The inventor may not have known after he pulled the trigger! Anywho.... anyone got an fact-based guess? Metallic cartridges, "english" and metric, rifle and handgun, smokeless and BP, etc, etc... __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; October 27, 2009 at 11:52 AM. Reason: Fixed it for the smart-arse mod ;-)

October 27, 2009, 11:50 AM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Let me fix that for ya Bud. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

October 27, 2009, 12:12 PM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Well, I have a number of fact based guesses... In NRA's technical department cartridge collection and the accompanying database there were almost 2,000 distinct cartridges. My Donnolly book of cartridge conversions lists probably better than 1,000 cartridges that can be made using other cartridges, pipe, etc. There was also a book in NRA's technical library (I wish I had swiped it) that was simply a list of cartridges and their dimensions. The author had spent decades putting it together. I seem to recall it was over 3,000 entries, but I may be wrong about that. The problem is, there's way to put a meaningful number to it. Every time I think I'm getting a handle on all of the different cartridges that are out there, I come across a dozen more I never knew existed. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 27, 2009, 01:57 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"Shoulder-fired or hand held weapon, metallic case," Do you include externally primed cartridges in that? Like the Morse, Gallagher, Burnsides, Smith, etc? How about cartridges for the Gardiner or Hotchkiss manual machine guns? How about the cartridges for the Requa Battery Gun? Or the French Millatreuse? How about cartridges that used a metallic head, but a wound paper body? Like some of Hiram Berdan or Col. Edward Boxer's early efforts, which were adopted by various European states? Or cartridges like the Chassepot or Dreyse needle gun rounds? Or, for that matter, modern shotshells, which are generally paper or plastic, but at one time were often metallic? Getting an idea for how difficult this can be? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 27, 2009, 02:06 PM	#11
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Holy smokes! You guys sure do ask a lot of questions! Originally, I was thinking of just variations of the essential modern metallic cartridge. However, well, hell, I don't even know what half that crap you mentioned is, Mike! Somehow I don't think including or excluding them is going to effect the, ur, "accuracy" of any number we might come up with anyway. I kind of thought that there might actually be a list somewhere. What got the question started was that I've known a few guys in my life that own(ed) several hundred guns at one time. So, I got to thinking that it would be pretty cool if you could say that you owned a gun for every cartridge ever made. Alright, let's make it (a wee bit) easier, I think. How about this one: "Enclosed", self contained, however you want to define that exactly, basically some version, whether modern or primitive, of the basic more or less modern metallic cartridge but not necessarily actually metallic but sold or available in reasonable quantities, at some point, within the USA whether commercially or as a relatively wide-spread wildcat. How's that? Probably just opened a whole new can of worms.... right? __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

October 27, 2009, 12:49 PM	#5
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	http://www.huntingtons.com/dies_specialorder.html This is by no means all of them , but it will give you some idea of a lot of stuff that dies are available for.

October 27, 2009, 12:55 PM	#6
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	Hard to pin down a specific number when it's hard to define when an idea becomes a cartridge. Does a 4 bore count? I'll bet all of them ever made wouldn't fill a closet, but I would count them. How about if somebody made a round, say a 300 Weatherby necked down to 14 cal, but never had a rifle made? I don't think I would count that. But I'll bet there are wildcats where there was only ever one or two rifles made for it. So I'll say 2713 different cartridges. What do I win?

October 27, 2009, 01:19 PM	#7
Technosavant Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2007 Location: St. Louis, MO area Posts: 4,040	One dollar! Wait, wrong guess for this one... If you're talking about all of them, ever, don't forget to include the old rimfire, pinfire, and similar obsolete designs that won't show up in any kind of reloading manual. The surprising thing is that given all those different cartridges, how many (or few) of them seem to have stood the test of time. Not that the now defunct ones were bad, but that they may not have been that much better than others to chisel out a significant share of the market.

October 27, 2009, 01:49 PM	#9
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Okay then, 2712. Or maybe 3481, 'not sure.

October 27, 2009, 02:24 PM	#12
Claude Clay Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2007 Location: CT Posts: 325	eleventy-seven and i will have you know that i left no ttone unsurned in finding that out

October 27, 2009, 03:19 PM	#13
BuckHammer Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 286	87. There are 87 cartridges. __________________ Luck runs out. Boiler Up!

October 27, 2009, 03:24 PM	#14
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	A whole bunch! __________________ Have a nice day!

October 27, 2009, 03:50 PM	#15
ZeroJunk Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Browns Summit NC Posts: 2,589	Let me know when you come up with a hard number. I will go in the shop and make another one.

October 27, 2009, 05:08 PM	#16
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	I can only prove that there are 100 because that is what is in the box I have in front of me.

October 27, 2009, 07:15 PM	#18
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	I have the definitive answer: ∞ ("Infinite" for those who forgot the useless bits of maths) __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!! Last edited by Falcon5NZ; October 27, 2009 at 09:31 PM. Reason: added clarification

October 27, 2009, 07:26 PM	#19
HammerBite Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 429	I suppose that someone could count the index entries in Cartridges of the World, delete the redundant alternative names for identical cartridges and come up with a pretty good documented list.

October 27, 2009, 08:35 PM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	My Donnolly book? Just guestimating from the index in the back... Probably closer to 1,500 to 1,800 cartridges listed as being possible conversions. And I know for a fact that there are many that are not listed in there, including all of the developments since the book was first published and my copy printed in the 1987. "I suppose that someone could count the index entries in Cartridges of the World, delete the redundant alternative names for identical cartridges and come up with a pretty good documented list." Uhm... No. Not really. I've always said that Cartridges of the World, while an incredibly valuable book, especially for beginners and generalists, should be called "The Not Very Complete At All List of Common Cartridges of the World." __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 27, 2009, 08:37 PM	#21
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Know what? I'm going to take some pictures of some REALLY interesting cartridges for you, Peet. Some of them ought to blow your mind and totally alter your concept of what a cartridge is... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 27, 2009, 09:25 PM	#23
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	Are we including variations of cartridges like the M-1 Tracer, M-2 Ball, M-22 Frangible (all for .30-06)? If so this list is gonna get real big real fast. Nick __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!!

October 28, 2009, 10:58 AM	#25
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Couldn't get it done last night, and tonight if the first game of the World Series, and I want to see my Phillies beat the hell out of the Yankees, so probably not tonight, either. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.