This happened near my parents house.

[Dragon55]

Only choice in that scenario would be to make mental notes for cops.

Scary scenario.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, it was Garland. It was probably a nice suburb 40 years ago. Even Richardson is succumbing to the blight now.

Actually, the Waffle House is just off of I635. I would not call the immediate area blighted. The Bobo China is in Lake Highlands and the other two eateries are in fairly nice areas. So I am not sure that being in Garland is a key factor to the MO of the robbers, or that it was a Waffle House.

[CARGUY2244]

Keenly observe all details, using eyes and ears. Unless I believe they're about to open fire, my gun remains holstered. Its almost impossible imagine siezing a tactical against 6 bogies in a full Waffle House.
I prefer a drive through White Castle. Cheaper, safer, same stomach ache the next morning.

[JohnKSa]

Well, it was Garland. It was probably a nice suburb 40 years ago.

Garland is big--about a quarter of a million people. Like any suburb that size some parts are nice and other parts are not.

I would agree with DNS' assessment of that particular area and would add that simply driving down the major streets won't give you a good idea of how nice some of the neighborhoods in that area are. You have to turn off a major street and start poking around a bit to find them.

[Mr. Davis]

A scenario like this, although highly uncommon, makes a compelling argument against Open Carry.

Can you imagine the reaction if the amped-up robbers had seen a civilian sitting in a booth with a 1911 or Glock on their hip?

At the least, they'd have lost the gun. At worst, they'd be mistaken for a cop or a "wannabe hero" and lose their life.

[Lawyer Daggit]

A few years ago here there were some robberies at a very good quality chinese restaurant - they cleaned out the till and robbed the patrons- all because the owners were not paying the mob its protection money.

[GojuBrian]

I'd rather rob a waffle house than eat there.

Seriously, I'd just cooperate and try to get good descriptions.

[mrnkc130]

So you can still go to the NASCAR races, air shows, shoot at my place, but not go to Cheaper than Dirt or Cabelas?

I make a few exceptions...cheaper than dirt isnt one of them, i still consider that being robbed

[LightningJoe]

Garland is big--about a quarter of a million people. Like any suburb that size some parts are nice and other parts are not.

I would agree with DNS' assessment of that particular area and would add that simply driving down the major streets won't give you a good idea of how nice some of the neighborhoods in that area are. You have to turn off a major street and start poking around a bit to find them.

That's how it works. Young people build houses there when it's a nice suburb. They want to get away from the blight in the city (in this case Dallas). Things go well for a while. Then the same blight that drove them from Dallas creeps out into their suburb. 40 years later, you've got those same people, now old, retired in the houses they built when things were good. Those are the nice parts. The blight surrounds them. That generation passes on, their heirs sell the old houses, and the blight settles in for the long term.


When I moved to McKinney, the influx was astonishing. Now, it's in midstride. Forty years from now, I'll be an old man in my old house, surrounded by blight. The young families will build houses in Anna or elsewhere.


Unless gasoline is $20 a gallon. In which case we'll have moved on to a new paradigm. McKinney may be a ghost town with a few elderly holdouts while Dallas will be an industrial slum surrounded by a residential shantytown, five or ten million people crammed together like a Brazilian city.

[thawntex]

Let's put the gigantic paintbrush down for a minute, shall we?

I live in Dallas, and if I threw a handful of rocks hard enough I could hit all of the aforementioned crime scenes.

I could also hit the exceptional Montessori preschool that my child attended, as well as the arts magnet school she currently attends.

I could hit the public train station that takes us to the vibrant and growing downtown arts district. Along the way we might check out the Dallas World Aquarium or the zoo, all accessible without driving an inch.

I could hit many well-maintained and spacious parks, and a bike trail that takes me straight to White Rock Lake and the Dallas Arboretum.

I could hit the hundreds of restaurants that people safely frequent every day, as well as any type of retailer you can imagine.


Not every young family chooses the suburbs. We settled into a nice, modest home in an established Dallas neighborhood. Our house is 48 years old, and I'm having trouble seeing the "blight" that apparently surrounds us. We know our neighbors, and a strong sense of community exists along our street.

The problems lie in areas of high population density. The five corners neighborhood and Forest/Audelia comprise the worst part of our vicinity. I am not, however, moving 40 miles away due to the existence of a few low-rent districts. In fact, I continue to drive through these areas daily with no issues.

For every square mile of ugly apartments there are several beautiful, well-maintained neighborhoods occupied by great people. Dallas is full of character, for better or for worse, and I am staying!

-T

[Double Naught Spy]

When I moved to McKinney, the influx was astonishing. Now, it's in midstride.

That means that when you moved to McKinney, it had already undergone a significant revitalization movement, something your paradigm doesn't seem to include for any other place.

[LightningJoe]

That means that when you moved to McKinney, it had already undergone a significant revitalization movement, something your paradigm doesn't seem to include for any other place.

McKinney hasn't been revitalized. It's been utterly transformed by the arrival of 100,000+ people in just a few years. Other similar places are Allen and Frisco. But that's just a snapshot in time.


Are there parts of Dallas that are nice? You bet, like Highland Park. These are called enclaves. They exist, but they're not for the middle class. To escape urban blight, the middle class has moved radially outward. As long as commutes are manageable in terms of time and expense, this works and will probably continue as the urban blight creeps radially outward also.


But the economy is changing and driving 60+ miles round trip every day may become too expensive. If that happens, buses and trains may substitute. We'll have to see what happens. And we will.

[porkskin]

As a 2 year resident of Irving/Las Colinas only 1 year removed...I thought most of Garland was pretty yucky and not anywhere I would have lived. I had 4 employees that lived in Grand Prairie and I wouldn't have lived there either. The funniest part about Dallas is the Bishop Arts District. The "artsy" crowd moves in to a 2 block area of Oak Cliff, the worst part of Dallas, and then think it is a good idea to open shishi restaurants and have people drive throught the ninth circle of hell for overpriced food and drinks in the name of culture. But don't ask me, if we had stayed my a$$ would have moved to Ft Worth for sure. Sorry Big D

[JohnKSa]

Sorry guys, I encouraged this one to go off-topic. We need to get back on topic and restrict the discussion of neighborhood quality in the Dallas suburbs except as it directly relates to tactics/training/self-defense/etc.

[Dallas Jack]

As for tactics in an armed robbery with 5 or 6 perps you must remember that there were others that may be armed. You may not be the only one to decide to fight back or not. I think I would lay low but be prepared to back any action started by someone else. I have no desire to start a shootout but I think it would be the right thing to do to help out once it becomes a no choice situation. Can't think of a better way to help than evening the odds a bit.
Dallas Jack

[blenderhead]

Ok...I've read the thread up to this point. The sense is that it would be insane to start shooting when confronted by 5 or 6 bad guys. I get that. Perhaps. In watching tons of video of multiple (usually just 2 or 3) attackers at pawn shops, gun stores, 7-Elevens, etc. it seem that as soon as someone behind the counter starts shooting, the bad guys head for the door just as fast as they can. Most of the time it seems that they are totally taken by surprise that someone is really shooting at them (especially funny if the BGs are hitting a gun store?). So, if someone jumps up and shoots one or two, I would bet the other 4 or 5 would fall over each other running for the door. Crazy, perhaps, but I bet (from the safety of my keyboard) that's the way it would go down.

[wally626]

Ok...I've read the thread up to this point. The sense is that it would be insane to start shooting when confronted by 5 or 6 bad guys. I get that. Perhaps. In watching tons of video of multiple (usually just 2 or 3) attackers at pawn shops, gun stores, 7-Elevens, etc. it seem that as soon as someone behind the counter starts shooting, the bad guys head for the door just as fast as they can. Most of the time it seems that they are totally taken by surprise that someone is really shooting at them (especially funny if the BGs are hitting a gun store?). So, if someone jumps up and shoots one or two, I would bet the other 4 or 5 would fall over each other running for the door. Crazy, perhaps, but I bet (from the safety of my keyboard) that's the way it would go down.

I think you are right that the BG would run after a few shots were fired but a restaurant is a lot different than a convenience store or a gun shop. A lot more people who can't get out of the way quickly and are likely to be caught in the crossfire.

[bamafan4life]

if i was the owner id have some one there locked and loaded at all times. if i seen someone walking in with guns drawn id shoot first and ask questions later.

[Hook686]

Personally I do not think this is like a 'Shoot-em-up' video game where the winner is determined by the side that scores the most hits. I suspect that getting the scenario over without anyone getting hurt, or killed would be the win. As someone noted, money and things can be replaced, but lives cannot.

I doubt that having armed guards in restaurants would increase business.

[Double Naught Spy]

Ok...I've read the thread up to this point. The sense is that it would be insane to start shooting when confronted by 5 or 6 bad guys. I get that. Perhaps. In watching tons of video of multiple (usually just 2 or 3) attackers at pawn shops, gun stores, 7-Elevens, etc. it seem that as soon as someone behind the counter starts shooting, the bad guys head for the door just as fast as they can. Most of the time it seems that they are totally taken by surprise that someone is really shooting at them (especially funny if the BGs are hitting a gun store?). So, if someone jumps up and shoots one or two, I would bet the other 4 or 5 would fall over each other running for the door. Crazy, perhaps, but I bet (from the safety of my keyboard) that's the way it would go down.

The gunmen might run out. You are correct. Or in the case of the Good Guys Electronics Store hostage situation, they might just start killing everyone they see.
http://books.google.com/books?id=eXU...stages&f=false

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgXnDrdov9w

I would have to believe that the most effective time to shoot would be before all the robbers are in the door. You need to stop them at the door before they ever become an established presence in control of the establishment. That would, of course, require being very observant and very quick to react. By quick to react, I am not referring to the time of one's draw. We are all fairly amazingly fast when we have a timer put to us and we are waiting for the buzzer to make our draw. At that point, we already know what we are going to do and we have a nice easy and stationary defenseless target. What I am talking about is all the time lost in seeing the situation unfold and going through all the mental scenarios before coming to the critical understanding that there is no justification for what is occurring except that it is nefarious and is a danger. So 1- 5 seconds are lost and by that time, all the bad guys have made it through the door.

I have seen a couple of videos where multiple (2 or more) robbers have been stopped by shooting (at) them as they came through the door, but this is an exception to what normally happens. In those cases, it was convenience store clerks.

[Stevie-Ray]

So far they've not harmed anyone. I've thought about this scenario some and unless I happened to be eating waffles with several armed friends who I knew I could count on when the robbers stormed the place the best strategy appears to be to remain calm, smile, grit your teeth and fork over your wallet & jewelry.

I'd have to completely agree. Not until I knew one of them was about to kill somebody, or worse, firing started, would I pull my weapon.

[longspurr]

Not a Waffle house but

A member of my gun club is a retired Detroit cop. He related that one night while eating at a restaurant after work, two guys come in to rob the place. One with the shotgun stays by the door. The one with a revolver went for the cash register.

Afraid he was going to be made as a cop, he shot the shotgun wielder. The revolver guy was next, and he hit him once before he ducked behind the counter. His next shot got him in the head as he was crouched-running-shooting from behind the counter.

It can have a good outcome if the good guy is a seasoned shooter.

[Double Naught Spy]

Two bandits is much less than 4-6, however.

[markj]

I would hesitate in a crowded resturant before attempting to shoot a BG. Sure would hate to hit the wrong person.