Penetration

iMagUdspEllr · November 4, 2009, 12:12 PM

Which type/calibur of handgun ammunition will penetrate the widest variety of objects? Please keep it to handgun calibers/types that I can actually obtain the handgun for.

In my research for a defensive handgun I have concluded that the diameter of the bullet does not matter when it comes to actually killing a target. If I shoot them with a .50 or a 9mm in the chest it doesn't matter unless that round hits a vital organ.

The difference in diameter between a 9mm and .50 is ~1/8 of an inch. So, basically, getting stabbed in the heart with a pencil or a sharpie doesn't really matter...they are still small holes in comparison to the size of the organ...and they will both prevent proper operation of the organ just fine.

I also believe that the only way to obtain a "one-shot stop" is by delivering a bullet to my target's brain or at least their heart if I have the luxury of escaping while they die from blood loss.

But, this isn't the case when it comes down to penetrating things in the way and (god forbid) body armor that the attacker may have.

So, what type/caliber ammunition would you recommend for a defensive handgun that may have to penetrate random obstacles before striking a targets vital areas?

#18indycolts · November 4, 2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

So, what type/caliber ammunition would you recommend for a defensive handgun that may have to penetrate random obstacles before striking a targets vital areas?

It doesn't sound like that you're wanting a self defense round, maybe you should stick to video games.

peetzakilla · November 4, 2009, 01:05 PM

I would recommend learning more about real life self defense situations, specifically the probability of ever needing to shoot through a "hardened" target. Any commercially available round will penetrate the "obstacles" that would be typical of a civilian self defense scenario.

Quote:

In my research for a defensive handgun I have concluded that the diameter of the bullet does not matter when it comes to actually killing a target. If I shoot them with a .50 or a 9mm in the chest it doesn't matter unless that round hits a vital organ.

The difference in diameter between a 9mm and .50 is ~1/8 of an inch. So, basically, getting stabbed in the heart with a pencil or a sharpie doesn't really matter...they are still small holes in comparison to the size of the organ...and they will both prevent proper operation of the organ just fine.

I do agree with that assessment.

iMagUdspEllr · November 4, 2009, 01:11 PM

Nevermind.

#18indycolts · November 4, 2009, 01:16 PM

maybe I came off a little harsh, but in all seriousness, if you're afraid of body armor and drive by's then look into an AK or some other rifle because handguns do very poor against the above situations. But if handgun is what you're after because you can conceal it, then look at a .44 mag or .50 desert eagle, but even those are hard to conceal sometimes.

a10t2 · November 4, 2009, 01:16 PM

Drill, baby, drill. Practice double-taps to the torso, followed by evaluation/careful aim in case a followup head shot is necessary. That's how you defeat body armor with a handgun.

As far as a drive-by, I don't think returning fire would be justified from a tactical perspective. Take cover and and wait for them to, well, drive by.

jontz · November 4, 2009, 02:07 PM

Your question is really kind of a tough one to answer because there are SO many variables.

First and foremost, you need to understand that you have to be able to SEE what you are shooting at. If by obstacles you mean doors or walls, that means you are shooting at something you can't see. If you do that, you are liable to find yourself on the wrong side of the courtroom.

If you are worried about obstacles such as a heavy jacket defeating your hollow points, I would suggest loading 2-3 JHPs at the top of you magazine and then load the rest with FMJ. That's about the closest you can get to a setup that will work in all situations.

Perhaps if you clarify a little bit what you are thinking about, that would help.

Welcome to the forum!

madmag · November 4, 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Which type/caliber of handgun ammunition will penetrate the widest variety of objects? Please keep it to handgun calibers/types that I can actually obtain the handgun for.

I think that deserves a direct answer.

I think the reasonable choice would be .357 Mag. I say reasonable because some larger calibers rounds are more for hunting than general carry. A 158g jacketed .357 with soft lead point is a good choice. You get some expansion, but good penetration.

FMJ is another way to go. It's good on the penetration side, but not good on the expansion side. Hard to find one bullet that does it all.

I always think of penetration as king. If you can't penetrate a target then expansion doesn't' really matter.

EnoughGUN · November 4, 2009, 04:16 PM

FiveSeveN

tackdriver · November 4, 2009, 04:21 PM

What about .357 Sig?

MTT TL · November 4, 2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Which type/calibur of handgun ammunition will penetrate the widest variety of objects? Please keep it to handgun calibers/types that I can actually obtain the handgun for.

If you are looking for strictly for penetration than I suggest a rifle caliber handgun in .308. You would be hard pressed to find anything that penetrates the widest variety of objects better.

Quote:

In my research for a defensive handgun I have concluded that the diameter of the bullet does not matter when it comes to actually killing a target.

I would suggest more research. Being able to kill somebody is not a good indicator for a self defense round anyway. A better indicator is stopping power.

Quote:

If I shoot them with a .50 or a 9mm in the chest it doesn't matter unless that round hits a vital organ.

Actually it does. Larger caliber bullets, depending upon the type, can create huge wound channels that can cause massive bleeding and shock. Hitting a vital organ, while important is not the most important thing for stopping someone. The amount of energy dumped by a larger bullet can also makes a big difference with stopping power.

Quote:

The difference in diameter between a 9mm and .50 is ~1/8 of an inch. So, basically, getting stabbed in the heart with a pencil or a sharpie doesn't really matter...they are still small holes in comparison to the size of the organ...and they will both prevent proper operation of the organ just fine.

Not really. First, a larger bullet has a much better chance of striking something critical. Second, a larger hole in anything will make anything (tire, cup, person) leak more and compromise it's structural integrity.

Quote:

But, this isn't the case when it comes down to penetrating things in the way and (god forbid) body armor that the attacker may have.

well ok.

treg · November 4, 2009, 10:24 PM

Quote:

It doesn't sound like that you're wanting a self defense round, maybe you should stick to video games.

+1

Webleymkv · November 4, 2009, 10:39 PM

It's really a complex question as the answer depends on what you're trying to penetrate. For relatively hard targets with a straight on shot (i.e. car bodies, body armor) a light, fast, small diameter projectile will typically give superior penetration. A good example of a cartridge with these types of characteristics would be 7.62x25 Tokarev or 5.7x28 FN. However, for softer targets like flesh, a heavier bullet with more momentum would be superior. Examples include .45 ACP +P, .45 Colt, and .44 Special. Where things really get interesting is when you start talking about auto glass. While it is a relatively hard target, the sloped contour makes lighter bullets more likely to be deflected. In this case, a relatively heavy bullet at slightly higher velocities are superior. Examples include 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum.

The two cartridges that come to mind for all around penetration are .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto loaded with medium to heavy bullets (158grn+ and 180grn+ respectively).

**JohnKSa** · November 4, 2009, 10:44 PM

Quote:

First, a larger bullet has a much better chance of striking something critical.

Actually if you do some experiments you will find that it has a better chance but definitely not a "much" better chance. I worked this out for the 9mm vs. .45 case and found that (depending on how you design your target for the scenario) the advantage for the larger bullet results in just a few additional hits (perhaps less than 5) out of 1000.

Quote:

Second, a larger hole in anything will make anything (tire, cup, person) leak more and compromise it's structural integrity.

This is true, but again, the practical effect tends to be much less than people expect as long as we're talking about comparing handgun rounds within a general performance class.

Quote:

A better indicator is stopping power.

It would be if anyone could define a way to quantify it so one could assess the stopping power of different types of ammunition. So far--no dice.

Mello2u · November 5, 2009, 01:20 AM

It is too complex for this forum.

Get a 100,000 word treatise on the subject. Better yet get two.

Hank15 · November 5, 2009, 02:34 AM

Special 5.7s and 9mms loaded hot.

I'm not an expert, those are just my guesses.

Check out "the box 'o' truth". <== google it.

jc650 · November 5, 2009, 02:54 AM

Some depleated Uranium rounds like the A-10 Warthogs have that the USAF uses? Maybe they can make some in a handgun caliber, I heard those penetrate fairly well.

Sport45 · November 5, 2009, 03:37 AM

I'm thinking this was a hit-and-run troll.

MTT TL · November 5, 2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

I'm thinking this was a hit-and-run troll.

Ya think?

Quote:

Actually if you do some experiments you will find that it has a better chance but definitely not a "much" better chance. I worked this out for the 9mm vs. .45

Quote:

Second, a larger hole in anything will make anything (tire, cup, person) leak more and compromise it's structural integrity.

Quote:

This is true, but again, the practical effect tends to be much less than people expect as long as we're talking about comparing handgun rounds within a general performance class.

Probably for those. But he was talking 9mm vs. .50 (AE? BMG?). A .45 is 18% larger, and has similar energy levels. A .50 is 31% larger and I would put it in a different performance class. A .50 AE has about 3 times the energy at the muzzle of the 9mm+P, putting it more in the carbine/rifle class. The expected wound channels are not really comparable between the two rounds.

I guess more experiments are in order. I will have to see if the FIL will let me borrow his DE over the holidays.

357MagFan · November 5, 2009, 07:14 AM

Ok, you want power that isn't to ridiculous to practically handle? Easy

10mm

If that isn't enough, there are bigger more poweful bores staring from .41 magnum up. If you really want something that will shoot through a brick wall and then go through your target and possibly someone unfortunte enough to be standing directly behind them, I suggest a custom made .700 nitro express.

I believe Freedom arms can make you a revolver to chamber than but its gonna cost you around 10k. Maybe more.

But be wary, if you shoot that out of a hand gun, its going to fly back in at you and possibly shatter your facial structure.

November 4, 2009, 01:11 PM	#4
iMagUdspEllr Junior Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Posts: 2	Nevermind. Last edited by iMagUdspEllr; November 4, 2009 at 01:22 PM. Reason: anger management

November 4, 2009, 01:16 PM	#5
#18indycolts Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Location: Indpls Posts: 1,039	maybe I came off a little harsh, but in all seriousness, if you're afraid of body armor and drive by's then look into an AK or some other rifle because handguns do very poor against the above situations. But if handgun is what you're after because you can conceal it, then look at a .44 mag or .50 desert eagle, but even those are hard to conceal sometimes. __________________ The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -Thomas Jefferson-

November 4, 2009, 02:07 PM	#7
jontz Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 45	Your question is really kind of a tough one to answer because there are SO many variables. First and foremost, you need to understand that you have to be able to SEE what you are shooting at. If by obstacles you mean doors or walls, that means you are shooting at something you can't see. If you do that, you are liable to find yourself on the wrong side of the courtroom. If you are worried about obstacles such as a heavy jacket defeating your hollow points, I would suggest loading 2-3 JHPs at the top of you magazine and then load the rest with FMJ. That's about the closest you can get to a setup that will work in all situations. Perhaps if you clarify a little bit what you are thinking about, that would help. Welcome to the forum! __________________ Sig Mosquito Sig P228 Bersa Thunder 380

November 4, 2009, 04:16 PM	#9
EnoughGUN Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 207	FiveSeveN __________________ GLOCK Austrian for Lemming

November 4, 2009, 04:21 PM	#10
tackdriver Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2000 Location: Bedford, Va Posts: 328	What about .357 Sig? __________________ Had: Ruger MkIII, Kel-Tec P32, Ruger LCP, CZ-75B, Kahr MK-40, XD-9, Bersa 380, Glock 26, Taurus 651, Springfield Compact 1911, SIG 239, Bushmaster M4A3 Patrolman's Carbine, Win. M70. Have: S&W 36, Taurus PT1911, Marlin Mod. 60, Stevens .22, Mossberg 500, Fox-Savage Sterlingworth, 1.1 mil Springfield Garand, Inland M1 Carbine.

November 4, 2009, 12:12 PM	#1
iMagUdspEllr Junior Member Join Date: November 4, 2009 Posts: 2	Penetration Which type/calibur of handgun ammunition will penetrate the widest variety of objects? Please keep it to handgun calibers/types that I can actually obtain the handgun for. In my research for a defensive handgun I have concluded that the diameter of the bullet does not matter when it comes to actually killing a target. If I shoot them with a .50 or a 9mm in the chest it doesn't matter unless that round hits a vital organ. The difference in diameter between a 9mm and .50 is ~1/8 of an inch. So, basically, getting stabbed in the heart with a pencil or a sharpie doesn't really matter...they are still small holes in comparison to the size of the organ...and they will both prevent proper operation of the organ just fine. I also believe that the only way to obtain a "one-shot stop" is by delivering a bullet to my target's brain or at least their heart if I have the luxury of escaping while they die from blood loss. But, this isn't the case when it comes down to penetrating things in the way and (god forbid) body armor that the attacker may have. So, what type/caliber ammunition would you recommend for a defensive handgun that may have to penetrate random obstacles before striking a targets vital areas?

November 4, 2009, 01:16 PM	#6
a10t2 Member Join Date: April 5, 2005 Location: IN Posts: 82	Drill, baby, drill. Practice double-taps to the torso, followed by evaluation/careful aim in case a followup head shot is necessary. That's how you defeat body armor with a handgun. As far as a drive-by, I don't think returning fire would be justified from a tactical perspective. Take cover and and wait for them to, well, drive by.

November 4, 2009, 10:39 PM	#13
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,061	It's really a complex question as the answer depends on what you're trying to penetrate. For relatively hard targets with a straight on shot (i.e. car bodies, body armor) a light, fast, small diameter projectile will typically give superior penetration. A good example of a cartridge with these types of characteristics would be 7.62x25 Tokarev or 5.7x28 FN. However, for softer targets like flesh, a heavier bullet with more momentum would be superior. Examples include .45 ACP +P, .45 Colt, and .44 Special. Where things really get interesting is when you start talking about auto glass. While it is a relatively hard target, the sloped contour makes lighter bullets more likely to be deflected. In this case, a relatively heavy bullet at slightly higher velocities are superior. Examples include 10mm Auto, .41 Magnum, and .44 Magnum. The two cartridges that come to mind for all around penetration are .357 Magnum and 10mm Auto loaded with medium to heavy bullets (158grn+ and 180grn+ respectively). __________________ Smith, and Wesson, and Me. -H. Callahan Well waddaya know, one buwwet weft! -E. Fudd All bad precedents begin as justifiable measures. -J. Caesar

November 5, 2009, 01:20 AM	#15
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 658	It is too complex for this forum. Get a 100,000 word treatise on the subject. Better yet get two. __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Pistol Instructor Keep your options open

November 5, 2009, 02:34 AM	#16
Hank15 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: California Posts: 208	Special 5.7s and 9mms loaded hot. I'm not an expert, those are just my guesses. Check out "the box 'o' truth". <== google it.

November 5, 2009, 02:54 AM	#17
jc650 Member Join Date: December 13, 2008 Location: Western,N.Y. Posts: 32	Some depleated Uranium rounds like the A-10 Warthogs have that the USAF uses? Maybe they can make some in a handgun caliber, I heard those penetrate fairly well. __________________ Every year there's a little less here.

November 5, 2009, 03:37 AM	#18
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Houston Posts: 1,447	I'm thinking this was a hit-and-run troll. __________________ Proud owner of a Ruger Redhawk, S&W 36, S&W 19-5, Sig 226, Colt 1991a1, Springfield 1911a1, SA XD45ACP, Dan Wesson 15-2, Ruger 22/45, Iver Johnson Target Sealed 8, and a few rifles and shotguns.

November 5, 2009, 07:14 AM	#20
357MagFan Junior member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Posts: 205	Ok, you want power that isn't to ridiculous to practically handle? Easy 10mm If that isn't enough, there are bigger more poweful bores staring from .41 magnum up. If you really want something that will shoot through a brick wall and then go through your target and possibly someone unfortunte enough to be standing directly behind them, I suggest a custom made .700 nitro express. I believe Freedom arms can make you a revolver to chamber than but its gonna cost you around 10k. Maybe more. But be wary, if you shoot that out of a hand gun, its going to fly back in at you and possibly shatter your facial structure.