Do I realy want to use Hollow points?

[Giangrecojason]

If the ideal target area is between the nipples and the throat(Triangle) wont the chest plate and bones effect proper expantion and penetration of hollow point ammunition? Would you be better off using ball ammnition?
-Thank You-

[Alleykat]

No. No.

[Playboypenguin]

What he said...

[hoytinak]

No. Use a good hollow point.

[Playboypenguin]

Just to add...your goal in any encounter where you have to shoot is to "stop" your assailant. When you take all things into consideration at close range hollow points are the way to go.

[CorpITGuy]

In 9MM, absolutely not. Use HP ammo. In .380? I've thought about FMJ, but came back to SJHP.

[Bart Noir]

I'm still looking for that ammunition that is guaranteed - in writing, money-back if not satisfied - to hit in that Magic Triangle.

Until then, I'll use hollowpoints for self defense. Since I have some thought that fear, adrenalin, and dim light (all at the same time) will make me shoot a little less than perfect.

Bart Noir

[fyimo]

Hollow points are the only good defensive ammo out there and I'm sorry guys if you are confronted in a bad situation your goal is to eliminate the threat. I was taught that by the US Army and it was repeated to me when I took my concealed carry permit class. Anything else presents a losing situation for you.

[Teuthis]

Modern hollow points open up and create a jagged, 360 degree edge that cuts a lot more than FMJ rounds. You get more bleeding, faster; and a better chance that the subject will collapse sooner from a catastrophic drop in blood pressure. There can also be an increased pain element with a sharp, expanded bullet; and pain can paralyze someone instantly at times. So there are some practical advantages to hollow points.

There is some surmise that hollow points also allow you to shoot the subject fewer times, hence possibly avoiding a fatality. But in reality, people will often shoot out entire, high-capacity magazines in the moment of fear. So that idea is probably rhetorical as an advantage.

Hollow points outside the K zone are perhaps not much better than FMJ rounds for instant effect. As I am sure you have heard, proper bullet placement is everything in stopping a subject quickly. But if you hit the K zone, the FMJ rounds are effective too; perhaps just not as fast.

Remember, most people have not actually killed anyone with hollow points; or FMJ rounds. They are just repeating what they have read, as well as the advertising of ammunition makers. I think the advantage is there with hollow points; just not overwhelmlingly in every case. Even in the K zone, if you do not strike an artery, the subject may not collapse quickly; even with hollow points. And if someone has a high pain tolerance for any reason, that negates potential paralysis.

[Glenn Dee]

Yes... you do want to use hollow points

[WVleo]

Hollowpoints for My CCW weapon. Also don't forget to rub the tips in Garlic !.........WVleo

[Edward429451]

Do you see how good the marketing hype is?! (Someone had to take the other side!) It is unanimous to use hollowpoints! I say it is preference. Nothing wrong with a good hollowpoint, except the cost. Yea but what's your life worth? (<marketing hype). Most people fall down pretty easy, others do not. There have been some dramatic stops with hollowpoints. There have been some dramatic stops with solids, even lead. There have been some dismal failures with solids. There have been some dismal failures with hollowpoints.

But you hear about more dramatic stops with hollowpoints than you do solids...again. marketing hype. These ammo companies will spend millions to be able to prove their product is best, so you will pay too much, and they will make billions. So you hear more about the hollowpoints.

The hollowpoints take such cool expanded pictures! Now that proves a lot. Does it prove that they'll feed in your gun? Better test 200 rounds in it to be sure, Ayoob said so! (shill) (no offense) ...

If Mr. BadGuy comes at you and you start pumping FMJ's into his triangle before he can stick his knife into your throat, will he stop? Probably not because you didn't have Gold Dots!!!

Oh My God.

FMJ's, solids, lead bullets...you don't hear hype about them because they are made for us poor folk who will buy them and go on our way anyway, because of the cost. It's those anal, higher income bracket dweebs that they want to convince that oh if you don't carry 30 dollars worth of ammo in your gun, you will not live. (it works! Go reread them again!)

Try talking to the hunter/caster types, plain lead bullets stop BIG TOUGH animals everyday for them! Yes there are failures also but not that much to go buy the high dollar stuff. (I had a Nosler Partition fail on an Elk) So there you are, it all comes down to preference. Us po folk know that cheap bullets work most of the time. Like anything else.

This is not why the military uses FMJ though. They use FMJ due to various international conventions.

would that be the convention(al) wisdom?

[MTT TL]

A couple of notes.

If the ideal target area is between the nipples and the throat(Triangle)

The military has been teaching this for a while now because the expectation is an armored target, and most guys that are going to be trigger pullers get lots of practice before deployment (before the last time I went it was in the 4000 round + range). The triangle shot is above the body armor most of the time. Most people won't practice that much under a variety of austere situations and are much better off shooting center of mass. If you do practice a lot, and are accurate at various ranges than you might be better suited to shoot for the triangle, maybe. Remember this is combat shooting vs. SD/HD shooting so we have different parameters.

wont the chest plate and bones effect proper expansion and penetration of hollow point ammunition?

Yes and no. OF course impact with a hard object like a bone will effect it. But this varies a bit and should not have major negative impacts on the effectiveness of the round from the HD/SD standpoint.

Would you be better off using ball ammunition?

Probably not. Unless your target is armored. If your target has body armor the FMJ will expand less and has a better probability of penetration. This is not why the military uses FMJ though. They use FMJ due to various international conventions.

Try talking to the hunter/caster types, plain lead bullets stop BIG TOUGH animals everyday for them!

That is odd. Nearly every state I have ever lived in FMJ ammo was illegal for large game. That said if FMJ were ineffective, the military would have stopped using it a long time ago.

[45Gunner]

While I can appreciate that in SWAT situations or combat, the BG may (or may not) be wearing armor plate protection. However, if a BG breaks in to your castle in the dead of night, my guess is he is not wearing armor plate. The same if he/she/BG waves a big knife at you. Center mass is your best bet and it presents a bigger target area.

When we go to the range, it is very controlled in that we take our time to aim and the more aggressive of us practice double or triple taps. In a high stress situation i.e. confronted by a BG, your aim is not going to be as precise. Go for the area you are most likely to hit, especially if it is in a low-light situation.

[rshanneck2002]

I dont reload so i always think about 3 different bullets? Speer golddot, remington sabre, and winchester rangers, basically in that order also,especially in 9mm or below. People have different ideas, but that my 3 basics for self defense and carrying concealed. FMJ? if nothing at all is available at that point in time,OK. I am not bound by the geneva convention.

[katana8869]

My Dad always told me that anything that came out of a gun was bad for you when it started poking extra holes in your hide.

I have seen some shootings with FMJ that put the victim down right there and from hunting with a whole variety of pistol and rifle calibers it's more about what (vitals) you hit than what you hit it with.

I carry JHP ammo in my guns, but I would use FMJ with no refrets if that is all I had on hand. In fact I have a large supply of both FMJ and cast lead reloads stowed away for SHTF duty.

[Croz]

I was always told that the other primary issue for using JHP for SD situations was to minimize overpenetration, and minimize risk to bystanders.

But the other point that hasn't been brought up yet is energy transference. If I shoot FMJ at an un-armored attacker, and the round passes through, much of the energy of the bullet ends up affecting whatever the final resting place of the round is.

But with JHP, when that round stops inside the attacker, all that energy of the round ends up there too.

Again, like most everyone else, just repeating what's been read, but those are the points I've read.

That said, I've carried FMJ before and would rather carry FMJ than not carry.

[Edward429451]

Quote:
Try talking to the hunter/caster types, plain lead bullets stop BIG TOUGH animals everyday for them!

That is odd. Nearly every state I have ever lived in FMJ ammo was illegal for large game. That said if FMJ were ineffective, the military would have stopped using it a long time ago.

I was talking about lead solids (SWC's WC's, RN) and they are not illegal for hunting, cept maybe cali.

As for the FMJ/military using ball ammo...thanks for making my point.

[parisite]

My ideal target area is the "X" ring that's inside of the "10" ring at 25 yards.

I use home rolled cast lead semi wadcutters.

Anytime you want to compete with your super duper high dollar mankiller ammo............let me know.

[CWPinSC]

Also don't forget to rub the tips in Garlic !.

Mine are solid silver.

HP is the way to go. Modern ammo gives you good penetration and reliable expansion. This creates a terrible wound channel, which is liable to stop the perp more quickly. A FMJ is liable to penetrate completely, possibly injuring an innocent bystander.

[Edward429451]

parisite, I hear you! LOL!

CWPinSC, your post begs the question...is there really a valid threat of collateral damage and over penetration? Of course the potential exists, but realistically...what is liable to based on? Something you heard or read? Case history? Fear? What?

Any links to cases of where over penetration killed the little girl etc.? I think over penetration is a contrived myth. I believe that in a defensive situation, penetration is our friend.

Flame on and discuss.

[Edward429451]

We all know that self defense is all about placement-placement-placement...

So why not use lead SWC's wherein we would be able to practice 10 times more than with the expensive hollowpoints, and be more able to place our rounds where they will efficiently stop the threat?

I cast and load 45 acp's for around 2 dollars a box of 50
I cast and load 44 specials for around 4 dollars a box of 50

I can shoot better with my own rounds over factory rounds, is this not the prudent thing to do? Or should I give in to fear mongering and market hype?

[Winchester_73]

That said if FMJ were ineffective, the military would have stopped using it a long time ago.

Not exactly. The reason why the military uses FMJs is not that easy. It has to do with the Hague Convention of 1899 (not the Geneva Convention). In this convention several countries agreed to use FMJ solely for their armies. The round was never picked because it was more effective in terms of stopping power. It was chose because its more durable for field use and more reliable in magazine feeding. These countries also wanted rounds which could penetrate armor and various other obstacles. These factors added together are why FMJ was chosen for use today, it was never because the FMJ was great for stopping power.

[Courageous Lion]

When it comes to hollow points, always realize that the velocity needed at impact to actually make them "mushroom" has to be close to 1000 fps. Taking that into account I'd suspect that a good FMC bullet between the eyes of an assailant will do the same job as the HP. Personally, I prefer the frangible type projectiles for my close up work. Take a look at what a hollow point, FMC or frangable will do to a 1 gallon jug of water at 25 feet after passing through a 1/2" piece of lumber and you will find that you might want to invest in some Glaser Safety slugs for your first line of defense.

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm

[wally626]

Winchester_73
Not exactly. The reason why the military uses FMJs is not that easy. It has to do with the Hague Convention of 1899 (not the Geneva Convention). In this convention several countries agreed to use FMJ solely for their armies. The round was never picked because it was more effective in terms of stopping power. It was chose because its more durable for field use and more reliable in magazine feeding. These countries also wanted rounds which could penetrate armor and various other obstacles. These factors added together are why FMJ was chosen for use today, it was never because the FMJ was great for stopping power.

I know using a TV show reference may be a bit unsafe: That being said the Lock-n-Load series on ammo mentioned that the FMJ was developed to keep the rifle barrels from building up to much lead. The high velocity lead rounds tended to melt and leave residue behind. I think the Hague agreement was to use solid non-frangible ammunition, not so much FMJ.