Do I realy want to use Hollow points?

[Thomme]

how is FMJ for 4 legged predators?

[tomwalshco]

If I hear a BG coming through a window, I'm reaching for my JC Higgins Model 200 12ga with buckshot in it...

[Webleymkv]

Here's my take for general self-defense against humans

In 9mm/.38 Spl +P and up, use a premium JHP from a reputable manufacturer

.380/Standard Pressure .38 Spl are iffy. Many older loadings, particularly when fired from short barrels, won't both penetrate and expand satisfactoraly. However, newer loadings like Hornady's Critical Defense and those from Double Tap and Buffalo Bore improve the situation dramatically. In these calibers, use hollow points only after researching your particular loading's expansion and penetration characteristics carefully, especially if your gun has a shorter barrel.

.32 ACP and under, use a non-expanding bullet like FMJ, Semi-Wadcutters, Full Wadcutters, or Lead Round Nose to ensure adequate penetration. Hollow Points in these calibers usually don't penetrate deeply enough to be dependable.

Exceptions to these rules inclued oddball calibers like 9x18 Makarov and 7.62x25 Tokarev. These rounds are often capable of good perfomance when loaded with premium JHP's, but too often they're loaded with substandard JHP's, under-loaded with premium JHP's, or simply not available with JHP's. Treat these the same as you would .380 and Standard Pressure .38 Spl: use JHP only after careful research.

Of course for purposes such as hunting or wildlife defense, different types non-expanding or controlled expansion bullets may be more preferable, but that didn't seem to be what the OP was asking about.

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by sks

BillCA: Perhaps but unless you were there that is purely speculation on your or anyone else's part. I am not advocating that the .45Colt solid was a one shot stopping powerhouse round. Simply stating that no handgun round is.

I see we are in violent agreement here.
No handgun round is anywhere near 100% reliable. I was just trying to point out that as good as the old .45 Colt round nose was, there were still plenty of folks who survived being hit with it. How long the survived afterwards is a completely different topic.

Originally Posted by sks

I would agree with you that there were probably some Indians shot 3 or 4 times who lived to fight another day. Probably some troopers shot a few times who lived as well. However, that doesn't mean that if they would have had JHP then the Battle of the Little Big Horn would have turned out differently.

While I'm an old phart, I'm not that old. Little Big Horn would have turned out differently with a more competent commander who didn't leave a pair of Gatling guns behind.

Originally Posted by Thomme

how is FMJ for 4 legged predators?

More properly, JHP are for 2 legged varmints and either solids or JSP's are for 4-legged critters. The reason for solids against wild critters is that their bone & muscle mass is usually much denser than ours and it is correspondingly harder to reach the vital organs.

Webleymkv
For the .380, out of most 3-inch pocket pistols, I believe the FMJ is more effective since it will penetrate up to an average of 13". No sense in spending extra money to inflict a shallow wound. Same for .22 through .32 ACP/.32 Long too. For the .32 H&R and .327 Mag, we have insufficient data.

For .38 Standard velocity, a 158gr LSWC still seems to be the best. You won't get much more than 200 ft/lbs from factory ammo however.

If I can't use hollow-point ammo, my next choice would be semi-wadcutter ammo. It'll do more damage than the RNL or other FMJ types.

[sks]

BillCA: Glad you are not that old. Yeah, we are in agreement just saying it differently. True, people have survived all sorts of gunshots and other injuries that they should not have survived. Too many variables in each circumstance to call anything 100% reliable. I just like the biggest I can carry.

[curmudgeon1]

Thomme quote: "How is FMJ for 4-legged predators ?"

Better penetration thru tougher skin, gristle, muscle & bones.

[NYDeputy]

From Edward:
The hollowpoints probably wont shoot to the same poi as the lead practice rounds..

My practice rounds hit poi as do my issue hp rounds- which is why I use them as practice rounds.


From Edward:
Nobody can prove that JHP's are any better than lead SWC's in stopping BG's.

More than a few studies have been conducted on shootings for more than a decade now. Results from hospital and coroner were listed, as were the type of firearm, type of round, and distances involved. Two of these studies have been turned into "must have readings" and state that for certain caliber/firearm platforms, hp rounds are more effective. As for over penetration, I know of one where a man shot an intruder, had a pass through, and killed his son.

[armsmaster270]

I will stick to JHP and shooting to stop.
This is after going through a sweater and hooded sweatshirt








At the time I fired subject was attempting to put a knife in me. I was backing down as he was charging with the knife. I deflected it once with my flashlight and the second time I fired with the triggerguard of my 38 against my hip. One round stopped him it is immaterial that he died.

[Steam Boat]

Not to get off the JHP vs FMJ subject but, any thoughts or comments on using Glaser slugs in the caliber of your choice ? Their price is outrageous for only 6 rounds, not even a full mag for a 1911 !

[armsmaster270]

Can't remember where but an officer was shot in the face with one, he lost his jaw but survived. I wouldnt trust my life to them

[BillCA]

Armsmaster - short memory? See footnote 2 in my Post #37 in this thread.

Almost every test I've seen of ammo like Glaser, Magsafe and other "frangible" rounds indicates less than adequate penetration and poor stopping ability. In addition, the Box o' Truth found that Glasers would rip right through several layers of sheetrock, intact. This makes their safety questionable.

If over-penetration is your worry with the 1911, remember it's low velocity greately reduces the chances. If you're still worried, use a good 185gr Match load if your 1911 will feed & eject it reliabily.

[JohnKSa]

Deleted Shoot to kill vs. Shoot to Stop posts from this thread.

That topic is currently being discussed in T&T.

[armsmaster270]

BillCA: Completely missed the footnote but what do you expect I'm getting ancient.

[a10t2]

If you own a handgun for self-defense, you already believe in spending some amount of money in order to improve your chances of surviving an improbable event (self-defense shooting). To apply the same logic to ammunition selection, you would have to believe there was no advantage *under any circumstances* to using JHPs, in order not to use them.

Put another way, the probability of a FMJ round passing within its own radius of a vital organ, during a shooting, is probably at least on the same order of magnitude as the probability of having to shoot in the first place. If you carry a gun for the latter case, why would you not carry JHPs for the former?

[Lurch37]

I typically don't get into these types of debates simply because I feel one is usually smart enough to make his own decision. However...I was surprised recently when browsing the Ed Brown website and ran across this in the FAQ section:

What type of ammunition do you recommend for your handguns?

We recommend high quality Federal or Winchester ammunition, and nothing else. In our years of testing and experience, ammunition by these makers has proven to be of consistent high quality. The core of our function testing is done with Federal 230 grain FMJ, which is great self-defense ammuntion. For accuracy, the Federal 185 grain Gold Metal Match ammo tends to produce the best groups.

Far be it from me to question Ed.

[MQP]

Friends,
Here is another way of looking at the issue.

The Full Metal Jacket has one huge advantage for the military: Causing wounds.
A wounded soldier requires much more infrastructure support than a dead body.

In either case, a replacement will be needed, but 100 wounded will have a larger drain on resources than 100 dead.
Q

[Emerson]

I have carried hollow-points and hardball FMJ.

Some guns aren't as reliable with some hollow-points.

If you're shooting a short-barrelled gun you are going to give up some velocity which could minimize the expansion of hollow-points. There is no perfect cut and dried answer in my opinion.

Carry what you have confidence in.

My carry gun is presently loaded with 8 rounds of hardball FMJ.

[DAVE RICHHARDS]

No absolutely not. N.Y.P.D. used hardball in their 9mm's for quite sometime. Multiple cases of rounds going through the bad guy and hitting another LEO or civilian. One incident years ago struck a women with child. It was tragic. They finally switched to 124gr. +P Gold Dots. This not only dropped the bad guy better it virtually eliminated shoot throughs. In fact one of the things I read about the Diallo case was the he was in a confined area and the bullets were going through him a flying back at the officers further convincing them they were being shot at when it was their own bullets flying of a brick wall after going through him.

[markj]

We had a test of fmj and hp a few years back using a dead cow, yes at times we have one go belly on us have to pay them to come get the carcass so we put it to use. All fmj 9mm went thru the rib cage and penetrated deeply, not so well with the hp, some went ricochette, some penetrated. The 1 oz deer sabots in 12 ga went clear thru both sides and this was a full grown cow.


Custer had time against him, them Natives were there almost 3 days, had to move soon for the horses to have food, they were very mobile and could pack up and head out in less than 10 minutes so Custer wanted to keep them all together he attacked. Indians tied brush to the tails of horses creating a huge dust cloud, they used gurrilla tactics not having a lot of ammo as no one would sell it to them at that time. Indians could shoot 3 arrows and duck under cover before the soldiers could react. A top scout was killed next to his commander which threw that leader into a funk he couldnt give orders. One min retreat, next attack. My friends Grandpa was there, a Sioux. He was 14 and counted coup that day. We used to hear him tell the tale of that battle, but no more, been years.

[dgludwig]

Because extreme reliability in terms of pistol function and adequate penetration are priorities for me in an envisioned life or death shoot-out; when carrying a semi-auto pistol for self-defense I opt for hardball. FMJ bullets are the standard when it comes to ammunition reliability and maximum penetration in most pistols and because the last thing I want to happen in an armed confrontation is for my pistol to jam or my bullet to get caught up in some bg's overcoat, I'll stick with a proven commodity (hardball) over the latest in bullet expansion technology.

[orionengnr]

two things. Missing is bad. The hollowpoints probably wont shoot to the same poi as the lead practice rounds...

Even as a modestly experienced reloader, I can easily make my lead SWCs hit the same point of impact as my factory SD ammo. And I can practice once a week

and the statement "the rounds that provide you the greatest possible advantage (and likelihood of survival)" is thrown out there as if it is some sort of documented fact, which it is not.

It is absolutely a fact. I don't believe you can name an LE agency which issues FMJ ammo (a modern, American agency--not Wild Bill Hickock or the Parisian police of the 1940s). There is a reason for that.

Anyone who carries ball ammo does so for one reason--he cannot bring himself to spend the money for FMJ ammo (I will excuse any caliber .38/.380 or smaller, as expansion may be questionable, so the benefits of a JHP may be minimal). If that is your choice, so be it.

[JohnKSa]

Anyone who carries ball ammo does so for one reason--he cannot bring himself to spend the money...

I think there are other reasons. FMJ tends to be very reliable in semi-autos, especially good quality FMJ. Some guns function better with FMJ.

Very sure penetration, especially with the possibility of intervening obstacles or very heavy clothing would be another reason for using FMJ.

I have to agree that JHP is almost always a better choice than FMJ for self-defense but I don't think I would go so far as to say that excessive frugality is the only reason for choosing FMJ.