Grandpa's 1945 1911A1

[TheCrimeDog]

Hey all. I'm sure there are a ton of "what's my gun worth" posts around here, although interestingly I didn't locate too many when I searched. Did you ban all those posters? Well, I'm not looking to sell so hopefully you can help me out and this isn't breaking the rules or anything. My dad has his father's 1911A1 with, as far as I can tell, mismatched parts with a Remington Rand frame and a Colt slide. The assumption is that it holds no real 'collectable' status/value and we should just enjoy shooting it and remembering the old man. I just wanted to confirm that before subjecting it to any more beatings just to find out it should have been a show piece. Photos attached...Thanks.

[stuckinthe60s]

mismatched is common considering field armorors repaired damaged guns during combat. only collectors (try) to piece guns back together, but honestly, mismatched is more authentic.
that gun screams...grandpa the hero of ww2.

[priell3]

It's valuable as a family heirloom and a piece of history.

Enjoy it any way you want.

[Drm50]

I’m a great grandpa and had same piece of junk 55 years ago in RVn. It could be screaming from Korea or other lesser known engagements since WW2. The most pristine examples of GI 1911s are those boosted out of supply chain before they left the states. Once they were issued all bets are off on replacement parts, ect. Actually a lot of WW2 souvenir 1911s were original. A large portion of them weren’t fired that much.

[Aguila Blanca]

The Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) has been selling surplus M1911A1s in similar condition for $1,000 and up.

The grips do not appear to be original, or even USGI. To me they look black -- are the colors in the third photo accurate?

Most 1911 aficionados would advise that you not shoot it. The slides were only heat treated for about the first inch at the muzzle, and around the slide stop notch. USGI slides have a history of breaking where the heat treat ends -- that's why there are so many mix-master M1911A1s with replacement slides. The problem is, you might be able to put 20,000 rounds through it with no problem ... or the very next shot could shatter the slide. There is NO way to predict if or when it will break.

[Lurch37]

With that serial number the frame dates to a 1945 manufacture by Remington Rand. Colt moved the "rampant colt" from the rear of the slide to in between the patent dates and their address in late 1918 on the M1911 so your slide could possibly be from a late M1911, a 1911A Transition Model, (1924 mfg), or more likely, from a 1911A1 made after 1937 when Colt started production up.

The grip panels look correct to me for that frame as they have the large reinforcement rings and were put into use around the 795,000 mark in serial numbers.

Starting in 1940 all Colt slides, (and others), were hardened. Up to 1942 this discoloration was a reason for rejection or refinishing and then after 42 it was acceptable. Unless you have an early Colt slide, yours is hardened.

Finally, I'm not positive but under the serial number and in front of the right grip panel, it looks like a faint "M" and "R" stamp, which according to my book, indicates a Mt. Rainer Ord. Depot rework.

[44 AMP]

The grips are period correct, and are brown, in two pics, they look darker in one pic, I'm sure a trick of the light.

Any mixture of parts from different makers is also period correct, for guns "in service". So is pure straight, virtually unused "collector" grade. I saw 3 different M1911s (NOT A1s) in unit arms rooms in the late 70s. One had "been to the wars" one had some use wear and the other looked NIB.

Some batches of guns were overhauled and refinished, during or after wars, some never were. If it didn't break and passed serviceability standards, it usually didn't get "fixed".

I had a gun very much like that, got it in the 80s when it was a $300 gun. By the mid 90s it was a $500 gun. After Saving Pvt Ryan, it was an $800 gun. No idea what the market value today is, I'd guess $1,000-1300 range.

Shoot GI ball or equivalent. No +p. Don't expect it to feed JHP or SWC slugs. It might, but don't expect it to, it wasn't made to do that.

Don't expect target grade accuracy. As a WWII GI gun it has collector value, but not premium collector value.

I would recommend you put together as much as you can find out about Grandpa's service record. Where and when he served, any decorations, any and all information you can get. Write it up, (perhaps laminate it) keep it with the gun, along with any significant papers or medals of his that still exist.

The guns GIs brought home with them can be the ones they were issued, or one they won in a card or crap game on the ship coming home. Some guns the GIs just took with them, some were actually bought and had papers stating that. Any information about him and the gun should be collected, and kept together, made into a display, if that's what you want.

If you want a daily / frequent shooter, get a different gun. If you want to shoot Grandpa's gun once in a while, I don't think it will hurt it.

Enjoy the gun, and the memories. There are some things money cannot buy.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Lurch37

Starting in 1940 all Colt slides, (and others), were hardened. Up to 1942 this discoloration was a reason for rejection or refinishing and then after 42 it was acceptable. Unless you have an early Colt slide, yours is hardened.

Hardened in specific places -- as I mentioned above.

https://ezine.m1911.org//showthread....vernment-Model

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

The grips do not appear to be original, or even USGI. To me they look black -- are the colors in the third photo accurate?

The grips are all brown on my computer. The last pic is just darker.

[RickB]

Strangely, Mt. Rainier Arsenal is nowhere near Mt. Rainier, it was part of what is now Joint Base Lewis McChord, and the nearest outpost of civilization is Tacoma, WA.
My parents were living in Tacoma when my dad got his M1 Carbine, shipped from Benicia Arsenal in the '50s, I have it now, and it has a MR rebuild stamp on the stock, so it had "come home", in a way.

[TheCrimeDog]

Thanks for the insights everyone, keep em coming. The colors in the photos are off, sorry about that. The grips do look to be "correct" for a mixmaster. They are definitely brown, and inside is the 5 point star with a 'K' in the middle. I removed the firing pin stop and found the slide serial number, 855411, which puts it in 1943 according to the Colt website. So a '43 slide on a '45 frame. The last piece I'm not sure of is the barrel. I couldn't find any markings whatsoever, and it looks too good to be 80 years old. Not unfired for sure, but I don't see any blemishes, pitting, rust or anything. I'll have my dad check if anyone may have replaced it since my grandpa died 30 years ago.

[44 AMP]

I was an Army Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20) 75-78 doing Direct Support and General Support levels maintenance for units of the 9th Infantry and the 2nd Armored Divisions. The 1911A1 was the standard service pistol at the time.

I don't recall any of the barrels we had being marked in any way, other than some might have had an inspector's mark (letter) on the barrel lugs, and one time a mis-order resulted in us getting a barrel marked NM (national match).

People say "mixmaster" and "mismatched" as if it is something undesirable, but I don't consider that to matter. If anything, it ought to be a point of pride in US manufacturing and quality control. A lot of the USGI WWII guns were not made by single manufacturers many were "mismatched" when initially assembled as many parts were made by different contractors. Even guns with all parts made by the same maker frequently got parts "swapped" in the field after the entered service.

Some other nations (particularly Germany) numbered several of the parts to the gun. We didn't do that generally, and not at all with the 1911A1. There is no "wrong" combination of GI parts, there is only "as initially issued" and "as found in service use".

A reworked GI gun with civilian aftermarket parts is a different matter.

[Lurch37]

The 5 point star with a "K" on the inside of your grip panels and the reinforcement rings around the screw holes on the outside would indicate a Type 10 used by Remington Rand, Ithaca, and US&S on all frames except very early production models.

The barrel in your picture looks blued to me, which is correct for an original military barrel. If it's a Colt barrel and of 43 vintage it should have a "P" on the left side down by the link pin, and possibly a letter under or between the barrel leg.

[TheCrimeDog]

Thanks for the pointers @Lurch37. Not only was there a 'P' (which I missed the first time) right where you said it was, but on the right lug there is an even smaller/harder to see 'HS' stamped right up near the top. So from other forums it sounds like a proper High Standard barrel that was common on a Remington Rand pistol. Only the Colt slide seems to not be, as 44 AMP called it, "as initially issued." But that doesn't concern me at all...I now have very little doubt this is the configuration it was in when grandpa brought it home. And it doesn't seem to hold any special differentiating characteristics that would make it valuable monetarily, beyond the normal historical significance. The value is all family nostalgia.

Now my only issue is Aguila Blanca's recommendation to not shoot it lest it should crack the slide.

[44 AMP]

Now my only issue is Aguila Blanca's recommendation to not shoot it lest it should crack the slide.

Other than being aware it is a slight possibility, I wouldn't worry overmuch about it. Which is not saying its a fine idea to hammer out 1,000 rnds a month, every month, until something fails.

The last major govt purchase of 1911A1s was in 1945. Unfilled purchase orders were cancelled. The war was ending, and we had enough pistols. Those guns, the newest of which were made in 1945 served through Korea, and Vietnam, and remained in front line service until officially withdrawn in the mid 1980s.

If there had been a significant problem with the slides cracking, I imagine it would have been fairly big news, and we would have heard about it in the 50s, 60s,70s, and 80s. We didn't.

Sure, it has happened to a few guns. That's verified. Stuff does break, even the best stuff has a failure rate. Very small, but it does exist, just remember that there is a big difference between "it could happen" and "it will happen".

The "poor heat treating" of low serial# 1903 Springfields while famous in the gun community these days, and considered a good reason not to shoot those rifles today, wasn't enough of an issue to cause the Govt to pull the guns from service. Nor was slide cracking of 1911A1s.

While I have nothing to support it, I suspect that at least some of the slide cracking of WWII vintage 1911A1a was due to some modern owners trying to make "race guns" out of them. More than a few people did that, because at the time, the guns were relative cheap and common, and the general passion for GI issue condition military firearms was much less than it is today.

I don't think a moderate amount of shooting, once in a while will harm your gun. However, I cannot state categorically that it will not. Your gun, your choice.

[Jim Watson]

I have seen one cracked GI slide in person, lots of internet pictures but who knows how many of those are copies of a few examples.

The Army was procuring replacement slides up into the 1980s, they had to see a need.

[TheCrimeDog]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Sure, it has happened to a few guns. That's verified. Stuff does break, even the best stuff has a failure rate. Very small, but it does exist, just remember that there is a big difference between "it could happen" and "it will happen".

That's fair...I know enough probability and statistics to know that a non-zero chance is hardly the same as "likely." Plus I'm not a .45 guy anyway, and dad even less so. When I say "shoot it" we're most likely talking a couple of magazines once a year, tops. I have plenty of other pistols that hardly ever get used either, I tend to practice most with my EDC.

[JustJake]

Looks like the average 1911 that CMP is currently selling. Still nice though.

[44 AMP]

The Army was procuring replacement slides up into the 1980s, they had to see a need.

Sure, the same need as all the rest of the pistol's parts, other than the frames. It was still the primary service pistol until the mid 80s.

There were half a dozen slides in a drawer in my shop and on my contact team shop van. We never needed to use any, but we had them in stock, in case we did.

One of the jobs I wound up doing was being the guy who got sent to inspect customer unit's arms rooms, and fix or document as "awaiting repair" of every thing they had prior to the official "MAIT Team" inspections, I handled, and inspected several thousand weapons during my service. The Browning designed guns (1911 and M2) were head and shoulders above everything else when it came to not having things wrong with them.

I'd venture to say that somewhere around 98% of the time, repairs to those guns were required only when some GI damaged them, not because of any mechanical faults or flaws.

Specific to the 1911A1, the only things I ever saw any of them come into my shop for were damaged rear sights (becuse they got dropped on concrete or armor plate, one front sight that actually came off, and a few with loose grip screw bushings, because some GI thought they were supposed to come out and removed them.

(Grip replacement was the company armorer's job)

[Lurch37]

Thanks for the pointers @Lurch37.

You are most welcome.

And you are correct about the HS on the right leg making it a High Standard manufactured barrel.

When I say "shoot it" we're most likely talking a couple of magazines once a year, tops.

As long as your shooting a GI Ball type load, I personally wouldn't worry about one or two mags a year, but it's your gun not mine and there's always that chance.

[trophyrider]

The 1911 I got form the CMP had a replacement slide on a Remington-Rand frame. I saw a few post on the CMP forums saying they had replacements also.