32 H&R Mag +P Loads?

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I don't understand the point of loading +p anything to shoot from a 2" barrel. What exactly do you think you're going to get. ??

More speed to help the HP expand. More speed to help solid bullets penetrate more.

[FrankenMauser]

There are standard .32 H&R loads that will exceed 1,200 fps from a 2" barrel, with an 85 gr XTP.
The 85 gr XTP is only rated for 1,000 fps for maximum expansion.

The 100 gr XTP is rated for 750-1,500 fps, but you still don't need "more speed to help" with anything.

Even if velocity is a factor, that is what the .327 Federal chamber is for.


>Buys .327 Federal revolver.
>Tries to turn .32 H&R into .327 Federal.

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by 74A95

More speed to help the HP expand. More speed to help solid bullets penetrate more.

As a forum lawyer be sure to take my advice for what it is worth - exactly nothing.

If I were you I wouldn't shoot anything with a pipsqueak round like that. If you intend to harm or kill something or someone, you need a bigger / better caliber. Hot Rodding a little bitty thing like that won't do much except make a big fire ball and a little bit more noise. And for sure don't use a handload as a defense round - that's going to cost you a lot if it ever went to trial.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by RoyceP

As a forum lawyer be sure to take my advice for what it is worth - exactly nothing.

If I were you I wouldn't shoot anything with a pipsqueak round like that. If you intend to harm or kill something or someone, you need a bigger / better caliber. Hot Rodding a little bitty thing like that won't do much except make a big fire ball and a little bit more noise. And for sure don't use a handload as a defense round - that's going to cost you a lot if it ever went to trial.

I have no clue why you're directing that at me. I'm simply responding to 44 AMP's question.

You're right about one thing, your opinion is worth nothing to me.

[44 AMP]

yes, more speed, thank you, but you missed my point.
UNLESS the "more speed" does something significant, something that makes a noticeable, and not just a measurable difference, what's the point??

jacking up the pressure does give you more, of everything, but is it going to be enough "more" to justify doing it??

There's no free lunch. Are you going to be able to turn your 2" into 4" performance speeds?? And, even if you can, is that going to matter???

Some of us still consider going to a larger, more powerful round to be a better solution to "power problems" than jacking up the pressure of a smaller round.

Beware of the "energy trap", the on paper figures vs. real world performance. There are a LOT of things involved beyond just velocity and calculated energy.

As an illustrative example, you can load a .22-250 and a .45-70 to EXACTLY IDENTICAL energy. However, the results of what either hits with that same amount of energy, will not be the same.

Its just a wee bit more complicated than that....

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

yes, more speed, thank you, but you missed my point.
UNLESS the "more speed" does something significant, something that makes a noticeable, and not just a measurable difference, what's the point??

jacking up the pressure does give you more, of everything, but is it going to be enough "more" to justify doing it??

No, I didn't miss your point. More expansion, deeper penetration ARE the things that make a noticeable difference, since these are things that cause more damage. You seem to miss that point.

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

There's no free lunch. Are you going to be able to turn your 2" into 4" performance speeds?? And, even if you can, is that going to matter???

According to your reasoning, we don't need longer barrels. We should just stick with our 2" guns. But wait, doesn't more velocity get you more expansion and penetration, the things that do matter?

I guess I should now include a rolls eyes or wink smilie because that somehow makes people think they're clever?

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Beware of the "energy trap", the on paper figures vs. real world performance. There are a LOT of things involved beyond just velocity and calculated energy.

I said nothing about energy. Placement is king, so 'they' say. Expansion and penetration help achieve that. Expansion to cause a wider wound channel - damaging more stuff along the way. Penetration to get to the place that matters.

[44 AMP]

According to your reasoning, we don't need longer barrels.

No, that is about the exact opposite of my reasoning.

When you increase the pressure of a load, you get more than just more velocity. You get more of everything, including blast, recoil, while at the same time decreasing the operating margin of the gun and ammo. NOT the SAFETY margin (unless you continue far enough to reach that point) but the operating margin.

How much, and how this will affect operation varies with the individual guns and loads involved.

There is a point (and again, it varies with the gun) where you get cases that stick and do not extract using normal hand pressure.

SO, you have to thread that needle, between enough increased performance and too much, and too much is well below the actual safety limit of the gun (or should be!!)

So, I'm asking what is it you expect to get, and what does the heavier than standard load actually give you??? And, in this case, give you out of a 2" revolver?

What good is higher velocity if you create a snub gun that is more difficult to shoot well, or even worse, one where cases stick and have to be driven out of the cylinder??

Is a handful of fps increase over standard worth it???

[rclark]

Is a handful of fps increase over standard worth it???

And to expand on that, what is the load intended for that you need hollow points? I know my revolvers that are 3" or less are for across the table, belly type guns which means you don't need 'speed' or 'accuracy' (point and shoot) but penetration with a heavy bullet for this small .32 popgun. If for varmints (not the human kind), a longer barrelled revolver is better for two reasons... Higher velocity possible (as 44Amp talks about) and longer sight radius for better accuracy on that charging skunk or ground squirrel digging holes out in your pasture. Do all this while sticking with standard SAAMI loads too. Need more go up in caliber. Don't make the .32 something it isn't. I conceal carry a .44 Special Bulldog (slow and heavy bullet) for that reason around town, but then switch to my .4X BHs (longer barrel) for the woods.

[Unclenick]

The other extreme is when very high-speed varmint bullets blow up and stay under the skin on some game. That's a case where faster does not equal more penetration. I don't think we'll see that here, but I would call the bullet maker of your choice and check that whatever velocity you end up with is one you are using the right bullet for.

[jski]

Well guys, last week Brownell’s let me know I could purchase 2 lbs of Lil’Gun. So, of course, I did. And whereas there is no Hodgdon reload data for H110 for the 32 H&R, there is for Lil’Gun. This data shows:

85 gr:
Vel. (ft/s) 1,263
Pressure 16,800 CUP

100 gr:
Vel. (ft/s) 1,208
Pressure 19,900 CUP

But these are still mild pressure levels. So I don’t think these quality as +P loads.

[Unclenick]

Note that the highest max pressure in the Hodgdon data for Lil'Gun is for the 100-grain bullet, at 19,900 CUP, while the 85-grain bullet peaks at 16,800 psi. The reason for that difference is they saw a lot more shot-to-shot pressure variation with the light bullet, so they backed down the load to ensure they weren't normally exceeding the SAAMI MAP with it.

You can estimate from that data that the pressure sigma (population standard deviation) for the 100-grain bullet was about 715 CUP or a coefficient of variance (CV) of 3.7%. SAAMI specs as used by the manufacturer assume not exceeding CV (the amount the standard deviation can vary) of 5% in handgun loading (4% for rifle and rimfire; 7.5% for shotgun).

The number for the 85-grain bullet lets us estimate its sigma at about 2730 CUP for aCV of about 16%. This is more than three times what the SAAMI standard would allow in commercial ammunition, so you may be disappointed by the performance with the light bullet.

If you look back at post #23, you'll see 74A95 found some H110/296 loads in Lyman and Speer for the 32 H&R Mag.

The data 74A95 found for H110/296 is this:

Speer

100-grain JHP Speer #3892 seated to 1.345" COL, CCI 500 primer
H110 (or 296) 9.5 grs. Min. 10.5-grs. Max
No pressure data is given to estimate deviations from.

Lyman
90-grain Sierra JHC #8030 seated to 1.315" COL Federal 100 primer.
296 (or H110) 9.9 grains - fixed load with no starting load options: 19,400 CUP
Estimated SD 1,040 CUP, for a CV of 4.95%

[zeke]

Hopefully you use a chrono in load work up. With lil-gun, if you see that adding more powder lessons velocity, you might carefully consider what you're doing.

[44 AMP]

And whereas there is no Hodgdon reload data for H110 for the 32 H&R,

And, you probably won't find data for H110 in that cartridge anywhere else. H110 is simply not well suited to the relatively small case volume of the round.

The Hornady data I have for the .32 H&R Mag shows heaviest charges in the 5 to 6gr range, (and that's for the slowest powder listed, AA No.7) and I doubt you'll find H110 data for any pistol round smaller than the .30 carbine case, other than the .22 Hornet where a starting charge of 7gr is listed. Its just too slow for small cases, and doesn't play well when underloaded, either.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Note that the highest max pressure in the Hodgdon data for Lil'Gun is for the 100-grain bullet, at 19,900 CUP, while the 85-grain bullet peaks at 16,800 psi. The reason for that difference is they saw a lot more shot-to-shot pressure variation with the light bullet, so they backed down the load to ensure they weren't normally exceeding the SAAMI MAP with it.

Or they couldn't get more in the case.

Or, as zeke noted, velocity started to go down with higher charge weights.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

And, you probably won't find data for H110 in that cartridge anywhere else. H110 is simply not well suited to the relatively small case volume of the round.

Lyman reports that with the 90 gr Sierra JHP in the 32 H&R Mag, 296 gave the highest velocity of all the powders they report - by over 100 fps. Sounds like it worked pretty well.

[gwpercle]

Hornady shows no data for H110 in the 32 H&R Magnum with either the 85 gr. or 100 gr. XTP bullets ... Perhaps that powder is too slow to work properly with these bullets / case capacity .
I don't see H110 being used untill we get to the 32-20 size case capacity .

Blue Dot and Accurate #7 would seem to be better choices in the 32 H&R Magnum.

Powder shortages suck rocks ... I hate not being able to get the right powders .
Gary

[Unclenick]

Again, there is data that 74A95 found. I once asked Sierra how powders get selected for testing and listing in load manuals. They told me they don't always include all the powders they might like to try, as some prove not to be available at the scheduled testing period. They have to buy them off the shelf just like you and I do, which is one reason you get different results listed in different books. We don't know what caused them to drop off the list without asking them.

Originally Posted by 74A95

Or they couldn't get more in the case.

That's a possibility. The density numbers I have suggest a little more would fit, but there is a good bit of lot variation in the bulk density value of most powders, so the powder lot tested may have been bulkier than the database numbers. At the same time, if it behaves as it does in the QuickLOAD and GRT databases, then a small amount raises the pressure significantly, so it could be pressure variation caution, too. Since the OP is getting some, maybe he can tell us what he sees.

[jski]

Wow guys! Thanks for all those are erudite responses.

So what's the consensus here?

• Lil'Gun or H110 for the .32 H&R?
• What if I'm loading for the Ruger LCR?
• How about the 6 1/2" Blackhawk?

BTW, I do load (for my wife) .22 Hornet using H110 (13 grains) with 30 gr Barnes copper bullets. Excellent load because it's extremely accurate at 100 yards.

From Hodgdon's website:

In addition, Lil’ Gun has many magnum pistol applications and is a superb choice for reloading the 22 Hornet.

[rclark]

Since you have Lil Gun now and you have some reload data to go off of ... Try it. I'd be interested in your chronograph results. I know what my results were .

[TX Nimrod]

And, you probably won't find data for H110 in that cartridge anywhere else. H110 is simply not well suited to the relatively small case volume of the round.…

What an odd and inaccurate comment. Both Speer and Lyman listed it, both sources showing that powder to give the highest velocities. In his October 2020 Handloader article, Layne Pearce mentions W296 (identical to H110) as his favorite powder for the little .32. The 2018 Pet Loads lists many loads with H110, again giving very high velocities. I guess some folks have a different definition for “well suited”.




.

[44 AMP]

What an odd and inaccurate comment.

I do that, sometimes....

Always happy to accept correction from someone with newer and better information.

My old books don't show any loads with H110 for the .32 H&R. The only .32 handgun round I'm currently loading is .32ACP, which is, of course a completely different critter....

I've used H110 and W 296 in magnum cartridges, .357 and up. I don't consider it suitable for smaller cases, generally, but not suitable is not exactly the same as not useable.