|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 30, 2019, 09:19 AM | #26 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2001
Location: Deep South Texas
Posts: 1,688
|
One point not discussed is simply to know what YOU are capable of. Yes, practice distance shooting BUT learn from that experience. If you cannot be confident of making a shot at 25 yards then don't try a shot at 25 yards. Understand your limitations and be honest about just what those limitation really are.
__________________
To be vintage it's gotta be older than me! |
December 30, 2019, 06:25 PM | #27 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,075
|
Quote:
Firstly.. this was not a "distance shot". Judging from the number of pews it looks to be about 36-46 feet. So we are talking somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-16 yards. Lets just use a distance beyond 25 yards just for this limited discussion. There is no need to throw conventional wisdom out the window simply because a small number of encounters fall outside 25yards. There are plenty of good reasons that 25 yards has been a reasonable standard for defensive shooting for a very long time. None of which are overcome by the occasional "distance" shot taken by a lawful defender. Secondly.. a person with reasonable skill to 25yards can easily shoot beyond that threshold so long as his/her eye site is normal. Competence at 25 yards does not mean you cannot make a similar shot at 35 yards. You are talking about very marginal differences in POI between 25 yards and 35-40 yards. To day that "distance" shooting [IS] a necessary skill to sharpen is probably incorrect. Historical evidence seems to stand in the face of that proclamation. I don't count on all criminals to adhere to statistical norms and neither do the people who helped develop common combat shooting standards. The truth is that "distance" shooting may be a skill that you need and it "could possibly" be a crucial skill in "some" circumstances. The bottom line is that the time and effort afforded toward training defenders, police, soldiers and other protectors- is not boundless. If we accept that it is far from boundless, then we should probably accept that someone much curtail the training into a reasonable module. That reasonable module ( no matter where you see it) will likely adhere to the 25-33 yard limit. Honestly, I see no practical reason to train with a pistol beyond 25 yards. There is certainly isn't much of an appreciable difference between 25 yards and 33 yard shooting. The skill that would probably make the most difference is detecting the developing danger much earlier. I tip my hat to the fellow who ultimately took down the bad-guy but I find it odd that alarm bells were not ringing much earlier. Security is one thing and to a large degree it is often re-active to bad deeds already happening. Protection is something else and protection is largely proactive toward detecting dangerous elements early, confronting them early and as far away from the "protected" as possible. That is what would have likely made a substantial difference here. Protective methodology is much different that your basic "security" methodology. I think Church security teams should operate with more of a protection mindset and not simply a security mindset. I do not mean to be overly critical of these good men but based on his dress, manner and odd behavior.. this guy should have been ALL OVER their radar. Perhaps he was on their radar but based on the extended video from youtube, it doesn't appear to be the case.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... Last edited by FireForged; January 3, 2020 at 05:12 PM. |
|
December 30, 2019, 07:09 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
|
Monday morning quarterbacking? Ok, I have nothing but praise and respect for how well these men handled the threat. SIX seconds... over.
|
December 30, 2019, 07:11 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2011
Posts: 12,240
|
|
December 30, 2019, 07:18 PM | #30 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,075
|
Quote:
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... |
|
December 30, 2019, 07:22 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,681
|
A 15 yard HEAD shot is harder then a 25yard thoracic cavity shot.
This dude had the skill needed at the critical moment. That only happens with practice. |
December 30, 2019, 07:25 PM | #32 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
The man who stopped the attack is a firearms owner who owned a local shooting range from 1995-2016, so he may have had a bit of practice.
|
December 30, 2019, 07:57 PM | #33 |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,527
|
One Youtube expert criticized the armed good guy for taking so long to get off his shot. I just watched an interview with him. He was VERY aware of what was going on, he didn't get into tunnel vision. He said that, after the first shot, people between him and the gunman jumped up so he had to wait for clear shot in order to be sure he wasn't going to hit one of the parishioners.
The man was definitely on top of his game, and I choose to think that he had an angelic hand or three on his shoulder at that moment. In passing, both this good guy and the good guy who took out the Sutherland Springs, Texas, church shooter were firearms instructors. The anti-gun forces prefer to ignore that. I suppose it's probably just a coincidence.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic |
December 30, 2019, 08:17 PM | #34 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,075
|
Quote:
My only criticism relates to proactive efforts to detect and challenge danger early.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance... |
|
December 30, 2019, 09:08 PM | #35 | ||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,058
|
Quote:
T&T requires that participants feel free to make both positive and negative assessments (both as appropriate, of course) of real-world scenarios to fully serve its purpose. Quote:
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
||
December 30, 2019, 09:37 PM | #36 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2018
Posts: 218
|
Quote:
|
||
December 30, 2019, 10:34 PM | #37 | |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Quote:
As the sage once said, “A man’s got to know his limitations” and I strongly encourage people to become aware of those in training. At the same time, every fifth of a second you wait for the shot you are confident in may mean one more family ripped apart - and if you rush your ability you may be the one responsible for it. There isn’t any easy answer here. But we do need to consider that our personal need to eliminate error may cause more suffering. |
|
December 30, 2019, 10:41 PM | #38 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 30, 2009
Location: Cyber-world USA
Posts: 258
|
For hunting I always practise at twice the distance that I think I will encounter prey.
So if my longest shot in the woods is 50 yds I practice out to 100 yds so I'm totally confident taking that 50yd shot. Defensive shooting is about the same thing most shootings are at 20' or less, so if you can confidently shoot out to 40' taking a 20' shot should be no problem. |
December 30, 2019, 11:08 PM | #39 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,058
|
Quote:
He places his hand on his gun when the shooter pulls out his firearm and then he maintains that position for about 3 seconds until the shooter fires the first shot, killing Mr. White. At the shot, he begins to actually draw the gun and fires approximately 2 seconds later killing the shooter. It's hard to know what his perception was at the time of the shooting--and as I mentioned above, the camera's perspective is somewhat different from his. He can only report what he remembers, just as I can only assess what I see in the video.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
December 30, 2019, 11:54 PM | #40 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Going back to an earlier point, I don’t think most people have an appreciation for how hard it is to make the leap from “This is the day I expected to see” to “This is the day that is happening.”
I’ve had the mixed blessing now of reviewing evidence in several mass shootings. The most common theme in all of them is people will see the attacker, see him pull out the weapon, see him start killing people, and then after several people have been killed, they snap to and orient to their new reality. The mind is just the biggest hurdle I think. To give another example, I can remember one of my first force on force experiences. The scenario was you are in a restaurant and two confederates in crime start squabbling over how to divide up the money. One kills the other. This scenario was based on a real life example. I went into this wearing sims gear and knowing I was going to be put in a “situation.” Despite having some difficulty hearing what was going on through the sims helmet, I quickly sussed they were going to kill each other and thought “Well, great! My problem is solved!” It was only after one bad guy killed the other and was pointing the weapon at me that I realized we were the only witnesses to a murder and I hadn’t even tried to access my sims gun because I was in “spectator” mode - and this was a training exercise, not real life! I think that rapidly reorienting to a novel situation that is outside the ken of most people is very difficult. I think this is one area law enforcement has a huge advantage. They have more experience with this and more “stress inoculation” even if they aren’t particularly handy with a pistol. It’s also why I am a huge fan of formal training for self-defense. Here, a 5-6 second response would put the defender well above what I’ve observed and close to supernatural. |
December 31, 2019, 12:04 AM | #41 |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,058
|
I think some people spend their last minutes of life thinking something along the lines of: "This can't be happening."
I know I see a lot of survivors being interviewed who state something like: "I couldn't believe it was happening." A lot of people think the key to being alert is going through life expecting something bad to happen at any moment. I think that it's enough to just NOT expect that nothing bad can happen. If you have to spend time convincing yourself that something is really happening, you're wasting time that you could be using to save your life or someone else's.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
December 31, 2019, 07:29 AM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,475
|
Plus a point on the often criticized NBC news, it’s interview with the Retired FBI guy, paraphrasing here, ‘if you have a concealed carry permit, it’s important to carry every where it’s legal to do so, because this can happen anywhere, at any time’......yup!
|
December 31, 2019, 08:12 AM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Posts: 1,819
|
Just to clarify, when I wrote
"Monday morning quarterbacking?", it was not intended as an insinuation directed at anyone who had previously posted, but rather made as an opening statement of MY assessment of the incident. I meant I had no criticism. It obviously was a poor phrase to open with as some may have interpreted my intention as critical of their opinions. I perhaps should have opened with "My thoughts?". While I have nothing but praise and respect pertaining to the hero('s) actions, obviously others may not share the same view and have constructive criticism or points of contention to share, as is the purpose of this subforum. One sword sharpens another! Sorry for any misunderstanding caused by my choice of words. |
December 31, 2019, 08:25 AM | #44 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2018
Posts: 218
|
Quote:
|
|
December 31, 2019, 08:34 AM | #45 | |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 25,058
|
Quote:
This situation offers a unique opportunity in that there is good solid video evidence from start to finish. It's really amazing to be able to go through it in detail and see how things progressed. I'm impressed with how the situation was handled and I commend the defenders for their willingness to act, for getting the job done and for saving lives. But there are two innocent people dead and it's very difficult not to look at the scenario as it plays out and try to determine if there is anything that might have been done differently to save those two lives. To see if there are any lessons that can be learned that might benefit others. Not to criticize the defenders, but to help others who find themselves in similar situations in the future. For example, Mr. White, the man who found the courage to act without hesitation and draw his pistol even though faced with a shotgun muzzle, was apparently carrying SOB and was wearing two cover garments. He stood to draw, perhaps because he felt his gun was inaccessible while seated, and managed to get his gun clear of both cover garments, but the entire process took around 4 seconds. His gun wasn't yet on target when he was shot by the attacker. I can't fault his decision to act and I commend him for his courage, but I wish his gun had been more readily accessible. I can't help but wonder if he had been able to shave half a second off his draw, if his gun, that was pointing about 45 degrees downward when he was shot, might have been leveled and fired in time to save his life. I don't carry SOB, however I sometimes wear a cover garment long enough that I sit on it partially. Clearly the ability to draw cleanly from a seated position could be an advantage in some situations. I'm going to have to think about taking steps to make sure my cover garments don't unduly complicate my draw while I'm seated and I think others who carry in a similar manner would do well to consider the topic too.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
|
December 31, 2019, 08:44 AM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
The average adult has no idea of a violent confrontation! They have never been in one of those, as an adult. So response when being thrust into the first one in their lives, mostly, is to do nothing, just freeze.
Shooting a pistol at a distance requires some prior experience in doing just that, shooting at a distance? Say 100M. Or yards. And having a pistol, set up to perform that exercise. I can only speak from my own setup. My carry pistol, a Glock 19. 4.5 lb trigger, clean crisp release, not much pre-take up. $100 TruGlo aftermarket night sights, this pistol has been fired a lot, by me in IDPA competitions. Carried concealed, OTB at 4 o-clock, Kydex holster. As a self-employed firearms Instructor for 25 years in Ontario Canada, 500 students a year I am still quite a good shot. At the Palm Bay Police range, a few years ago, I responded to a Federal Officer's challenge! (Boys will be boys) and fired at the steel 100-yard plate, from prone, 3 shots, 3 hits, black Talon 147g 9mm rounds. Trigger control is a prerequisite of accurate fire. I can guarantee the retired FBI church security man, pressed that trigger, no hurried pull. I would also like to know what pistol he carried that fateful day, and how it is set up? Last edited by Brit; December 31, 2019 at 08:50 AM. |
December 31, 2019, 09:59 AM | #47 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,527
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic |
|
December 31, 2019, 10:55 AM | #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2011
Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex
Posts: 2,259
|
Quote:
|
|
December 31, 2019, 11:34 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,429
|
This brought on a good amount of conversation.
He has since done interviews with a few media outlets already. Good to hear him speak on it. He's been running for commissioner and this is going to be great for his campaign. Also, weapon used was a SIG P229 in 357SIG. I wonder if he took the shot in DA or if he cocked the hammer for SA? I coincidentally just made / updated / requested a shut down of a thread regarding that. It was over in 6 seconds as he waited for people to get out of his way for a clear shot. Man is top notch. |
December 31, 2019, 11:53 AM | #50 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,566
|
As for 25 yard shooting. I do practice some at 25 yards but my carry is a 642 revolver, I'm never gonna do a 25 yard head shot with it. I will try it next time I go to the range. Can do 25 on IDPA head with a 586 and a 625 but these aren't my carry guns. A 15 yard head shot would be iffy for me with the 642. As a security guard this man had the right gun and ability to do the job. It is highly unlikely that one would have to do a head shot at 25 yards but anything can happen.
|
|
|