100fps - Page 2

sako2 · June 14, 2022, 07:24 AM

Yes Stag it does shoot very good. The 10 shots yesterday where in a hole I could cover with a quarter. Very happy with the way it shoots. I have 3000 rounds down the tube. I wish i could find some imr enduron powder to try. The 5 shots of 7828 had a es of 18 and sd of 8. Rl26 gave me a es of 9 and a sd of 3.

stagpanther · June 14, 2022, 07:45 AM

3000 is a lot for a PRC, I'll be happy if mine makes it to a 1200 and still shoots as well as yours does!

IMR 4955 is an enduron powder.

**Unclenick** · June 14, 2022, 09:29 AM

Both QuickLOAD and GRT estimate the volume difference alone will account for about 25-26 fps of velocity loss and that half a grain of powder would make up for it. With a drop of 100 fps, something else about the case is affecting what is happening. It could be, for example, a difference in neck wall thickness or yield point (different manufacturers use different brass alloys), letting pressure open the neck a little faster so you get more gas bypass around the bullet before it arrives at the throat. One way to address this is to seat the bullet out a little further if you have room to do that.

The other thing to be concerned about is an actual drop in velocity with load increment, so I would back the charge down a little just to make sure you haven't landed in one of those drops. Velocity drop can be a high-pressure sign because it can indicate the chamber is stretching or the brass is flowing at the pressure you are reaching.

**44 AMP** · June 14, 2022, 12:38 PM

You changed to a different case that has different properties and you got a different result shooting them. Why is that a surprise?

Someone else doing exactly the same thing even using the next ser# rifle off the production line could have different results.

Usually not much different, but the potential for significant differences always exists.

Sometimes, you can alter the measurable MV simply holding the gun slightly differently.

With all the possible variations of all the huge number of factors involved, the amazing thing to me, is that guns work as consistently as they do...

Always remember that your exact situation could be in the middle OR at either end of the bell curve probability range.

Pathfinder45 · June 14, 2022, 03:11 PM

Since I'm not familiar with the 6.5 PRC, I'm wondering about the difference in case volume between it and 6.5-06 or even 270 Winchester. I'm suspecting you didn't use nearly enough H-4831 or IMR- 7828 in your testing, but again, not being familiar, I can't be certain.
We all know that accuracy is a lot more important than velocity; we just don't believe it in our hearts.

stagpanther · June 14, 2022, 03:21 PM

Sako--just out of immense curiosity I decided to experiment with LRT since Hogdon does list it for some of the bigger 6.5PRC bullets. The closest I could come to a "weight class" bullet was a 135 gr hybrid in the 25PRC. I used 63.7 grs which is well under the suggested max for a larger 6.5 bullet. Even at that lower charge I was getting slightly flattened primers. This was just a "quickie shot in the dark" off the hood of my truck at 107 yds (I'm limited to close range for now due to construction activity) but I have to admit I'm very surprised it shoots as well as it does--it's compared to being close to retumbo but I never got anything close to this with retumbo. Sorry, I didn't set up the labradar.

sako2 · June 14, 2022, 05:11 PM

I did expect some difference. But not 100fps.

stagpanther · June 14, 2022, 05:54 PM

Don't mean to offend, but considering your barrel is about at twice the normal "accuracy life expectancy" I wouldn't think twice about a slight drop in velocity if it still lasers them in.

sako2 · June 14, 2022, 10:00 PM

No offense. But at those speeds I sholud just be shooting the 6.5 man-bun.

Pathfinder45 · June 14, 2022, 11:58 PM

Indeed. After further research, I'm thinking that should be easily outrunning my 270 Winchester, yet the opposite is true. Nevertheless, I expect your rifle is easier to get stellar accuracy with. There are powders that can deliver the velocity for you, but if you can't get them you'll just have to make do. Can you get Norma MRP?

stagpanther · June 15, 2022, 01:29 AM

Quote:

No offense. But at those speeds I sholud just be shooting the 6.5 man-bun.

I thought by definition anything 6.5 was man-bun? Or is that exclusively reserved for creedmoor?

I know on this forum we have the world's foremost expert on the man-bun, maybe he could clarify. I think I get your meaning, if you're going to sacrifice barrel life, should be in the cause of markedly better velocities then something very close that isn't a blast furnace.

My 25 PRC barrel is about the hottest burning cartridge I've ever shot. In about 3 shots the barrel is very hot to the touch, even when spacing the shots out 3 or more minutes apart.

sako2 · June 15, 2022, 06:21 AM

I'm beginning to think all the data and stuff you read on forums about the velocities others are getting is B.S. Only load I have that comes close is rl26. I didn't loose anything when I went ADG cases to Hornady. Guess that's what throw me for a loop. For a factory Savage rifle it's very accurate and fun shooting. Hope to shoot it over a 1000 yds some day. I got some lapua brass to try.

stagpanther · June 15, 2022, 07:04 AM

Quote:

I'm beginning to think all the data and stuff you read on forums about the velocities others are getting is B.S. Only load I have that comes close is rl26. I didn't loose anything when I went ADG cases to Hornady. Guess that's what throw me for a loop. For a factory Savage rifle it's very accurate and fun shooting. Hope to shoot it over a 1000 yds some day. I got some lapua brass to try.

Savage makes high value rifles for their price points, but there's a pretty good reason why there's a thriving after-market for savage pre-fit barrels. I've bought lots of savage rifles but never have gotten the kinda of service life you have, particularly for a hot cartridge, especially for a conventional chrome moly barrel. My savage 6.5-284 and 300 win mag had great accuracy while they lasted, which wasn't very long considering the typical bench shooting load testing I do. I don't think I made it to 1,000 shots with either of them before the barrels were shot out.I still marvel that you made it to 3,000 and it still shoots accurately with the kind of shooting you do.

sako2 · June 15, 2022, 08:06 AM

It has surprised me to. I've only cleaned the barrel twice. I've burned 30lb of powder with it. I've heard a dirty savage barrel is a happy barrel.

jetinteriorguy · June 15, 2022, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I thought by definition anything 6.5 was man-bun? Or is that exclusively reserved for creedmoor?

I know on this forum we have the world's foremost expert on the man-bun, maybe he could clarify. I think I get your meaning, if you're going to sacrifice barrel life, should be in the cause of markedly better velocities then something very close that isn't a blast furnace.

My 25 PRC barrel is about the hottest burning cartridge I've ever shot. In about 3 shots the barrel is very hot to the touch, even when spacing the shots out 3 or more minutes apart.

Hey, I don’t mind my 6.5CM being the man-bun, but I will never consider my beautiful old Swedish Mauser a man-bun cartridge.

stagpanther · June 15, 2022, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Hey, I don’t mind my 6.5CM being the man-bun, but I will never consider my beautiful old Swedish Mauser a man-bun cartridge.

Hansel-bun then.

**44 AMP** · June 15, 2022, 12:17 PM

Sorry kids, I'm old and not up on the "in" slang.

"Man-bun"?? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is that??

Published speeds are fine things, chronographs are fine things, but the reality can often be disappointing.

Knew a fellow who loved his .270 Weatherby. It was FAST, the books all said so.

then he got a chronograph....
and learned that his 26" Weatherby was only 30fps faster than his 22" .270 Winchester....

Is that usual? No. But, it was the reality of the individual guns and loads he had.

stagpanther · June 15, 2022, 03:52 PM

Well, I'm not sure you're ready for it, but the "man-bun" is the latest development in high performance shooting. It recognizes that not brute force, but the stylishness of a cartridge is as important as anything in its popularity in long range precision shooting. A perfect example is the 6.5 creedmoor, which is ragingly popular but arguable doesn't do much of anything other cartridges didn't already do. More importantly, it is socially-acceptable and shoots mild-recoiling loads with exceptionally sexy long seated high BC bullets. It's the perfect expression of masculinity, in a girly sort of way, which is right in tune with sexual ambiguity that is so popular these days. The ultimate man-bun statement is to show up with a man-bun cartridge at a shooting match wearing a man-bun yourself--the other competitors will feel vaguely threatened--especially if you give them tips on how to clean their bores, that it will throw their game and give you the advantage. Here is a video that will help you on your way, you can thank me later.

PS: here's another video demonstrating that man buns were also used by warriors to intimidate their opponents.

**44 AMP** · June 15, 2022, 06:15 PM

oooo k... not thanking you for the video.

I do thank you for the explanation, though.

And don't worry, I'm not in the least bit threatened by a man-bun, as in my world its a sign of cowardice. A true warrior who wears their hair long, wears it loose or in braids or a pony tail as a sign of defiance to the risk of an enemy grabbing it in combat. its a pride thing, and someone wearing their hair up in a bun is showing their lack of bravery, in effect showing their fear.....

Note, this does not apply to wearing one's hair up, covered or tightly bound to prevent machinery from grabbing it. There is no honor gained taunting machinery.

To further reduce its effect on me, I come from a culture where guns are not sexy, or sexual in any way. Interesting, pleasing, enjoyable, and many other things but never sexual. A personal ethos. I find those who equate firearms with anything sexual to be childish and immature.

as even Freud is reported to have said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

Pathfinder45 · June 15, 2022, 06:43 PM

Enough said about that distraction.
I'm wondering which powders Sako2 has available to work with or can readily obtain....?

sako2 · June 15, 2022, 09:17 PM

Man did we take a left turn here. LOL. I'm going to load 7828 up to max and see what happens. I'll let everyone know.

Pathfinder45 · June 15, 2022, 10:17 PM

That should work. If I understand correctly, your 6.5 PRC is basically a short magnum similar to the WSM series. So with a 24" barrel, I would expect it to come close to the 270 WSM.....

sako2 · June 16, 2022, 04:58 AM

Yes it is basically a 6.5 wsm. Powders I have are imr4831,h4931,rl26,imr7828,ramshot magnum,6.5 staball.

stagpanther · June 16, 2022, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Hope to shoot it over a 1000 yds some day. I got some lapua brass to try.

I bought loaded 6.5 PRC ammo from petersen and necked down the brass, they are very good. I'm interested in your results with the 7828--I tried it but nothing remarkable.

sako2 · June 16, 2022, 06:29 AM

I have lapua brass to try. How is the weight consistency on the peterson brass. I have a good load with rl26 at 2950. Looking at the data most of the accurate loads are around 2900. 57gn of rl26 gave me a es of 9 and sd of 3. Have 24lb of it. 61.9gn of magnum give me a es of30 and sd of 13. Have 20lb of that. Also have 24lb of 6.5 staball. And 16lb of 7828. BTW 7828 works really well in my 270 with a 140gn bullet.

June 14, 2022, 07:45 AM	#27
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,986	3000 is a lot for a PRC, I'll be happy if mine makes it to a 1200 and still shoots as well as yours does! IMR 4955 is an enduron powder. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 14, 2022, 09:29 AM	#28
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,125	Both QuickLOAD and GRT estimate the volume difference alone will account for about 25-26 fps of velocity loss and that half a grain of powder would make up for it. With a drop of 100 fps, something else about the case is affecting what is happening. It could be, for example, a difference in neck wall thickness or yield point (different manufacturers use different brass alloys), letting pressure open the neck a little faster so you get more gas bypass around the bullet before it arrives at the throat. One way to address this is to seat the bullet out a little further if you have room to do that. The other thing to be concerned about is an actual drop in velocity with load increment, so I would back the charge down a little just to make sure you haven't landed in one of those drops. Velocity drop can be a high-pressure sign because it can indicate the chamber is stretching or the brass is flowing at the pressure you are reaching. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 14, 2022, 12:38 PM	#29
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,027	You changed to a different case that has different properties and you got a different result shooting them. Why is that a surprise? Someone else doing exactly the same thing even using the next ser# rifle off the production line could have different results. Usually not much different, but the potential for significant differences always exists. Sometimes, you can alter the measurable MV simply holding the gun slightly differently. With all the possible variations of all the huge number of factors involved, the amazing thing to me, is that guns work as consistently as they do... Always remember that your exact situation could be in the middle OR at either end of the bell curve probability range. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 14, 2022, 05:54 PM	#33
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,986	Don't mean to offend, but considering your barrel is about at twice the normal "accuracy life expectancy" I wouldn't think twice about a slight drop in velocity if it still lasers them in. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

June 15, 2022, 12:17 PM	#42
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,027	Sorry kids, I'm old and not up on the "in" slang. "Man-bun"?? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is that?? Published speeds are fine things, chronographs are fine things, but the reality can often be disappointing. Knew a fellow who loved his .270 Weatherby. It was FAST, the books all said so. then he got a chronograph.... and learned that his 26" Weatherby was only 30fps faster than his 22" .270 Winchester.... Is that usual? No. But, it was the reality of the individual guns and loads he had. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 14, 2022, 07:24 AM	#26
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	Yes Stag it does shoot very good. The 10 shots yesterday where in a hole I could cover with a quarter. Very happy with the way it shoots. I have 3000 rounds down the tube. I wish i could find some imr enduron powder to try. The 5 shots of 7828 had a es of 18 and sd of 8. Rl26 gave me a es of 9 and a sd of 3.

June 14, 2022, 03:11 PM	#30
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Since I'm not familiar with the 6.5 PRC, I'm wondering about the difference in case volume between it and 6.5-06 or even 270 Winchester. I'm suspecting you didn't use nearly enough H-4831 or IMR- 7828 in your testing, but again, not being familiar, I can't be certain. We all know that accuracy is a lot more important than velocity; we just don't believe it in our hearts.

June 14, 2022, 05:11 PM	#32
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	I did expect some difference. But not 100fps.

June 14, 2022, 10:00 PM	#34
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	No offense. But at those speeds I sholud just be shooting the 6.5 man-bun.

June 14, 2022, 11:58 PM	#35
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Indeed. After further research, I'm thinking that should be easily outrunning my 270 Winchester, yet the opposite is true. Nevertheless, I expect your rifle is easier to get stellar accuracy with. There are powders that can deliver the velocity for you, but if you can't get them you'll just have to make do. Can you get Norma MRP?

June 15, 2022, 06:21 AM	#37
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	I'm beginning to think all the data and stuff you read on forums about the velocities others are getting is B.S. Only load I have that comes close is rl26. I didn't loose anything when I went ADG cases to Hornady. Guess that's what throw me for a loop. For a factory Savage rifle it's very accurate and fun shooting. Hope to shoot it over a 1000 yds some day. I got some lapua brass to try.

June 15, 2022, 08:06 AM	#39
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	It has surprised me to. I've only cleaned the barrel twice. I've burned 30lb of powder with it. I've heard a dirty savage barrel is a happy barrel.

June 15, 2022, 03:52 PM	#43
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 11,986	Well, I'm not sure you're ready for it, but the "man-bun" is the latest development in high performance shooting. It recognizes that not brute force, but the stylishness of a cartridge is as important as anything in its popularity in long range precision shooting. A perfect example is the 6.5 creedmoor, which is ragingly popular but arguable doesn't do much of anything other cartridges didn't already do. More importantly, it is socially-acceptable and shoots mild-recoiling loads with exceptionally sexy long seated high BC bullets. It's the perfect expression of masculinity, in a girly sort of way, which is right in tune with sexual ambiguity that is so popular these days. The ultimate man-bun statement is to show up with a man-bun cartridge at a shooting match wearing a man-bun yourself--the other competitors will feel vaguely threatened--especially if you give them tips on how to clean their bores, that it will throw their game and give you the advantage. Here is a video that will help you on your way, you can thank me later. PS: here's another video demonstrating that man buns were also used by warriors to intimidate their opponents. __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!* Last edited by stagpanther; June 15, 2022 at 04:52 PM.

June 15, 2022, 06:15 PM	#44
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,027	oooo k... not thanking you for the video. I do thank you for the explanation, though. And don't worry, I'm not in the least bit threatened by a man-bun, as in my world its a sign of cowardice. A true warrior who wears their hair long, wears it loose or in braids or a pony tail as a sign of defiance to the risk of an enemy grabbing it in combat. its a pride thing, and someone wearing their hair up in a bun is showing their lack of bravery, in effect showing their fear..... Note, this does not apply to wearing one's hair up, covered or tightly bound to prevent machinery from grabbing it. There is no honor gained taunting machinery. To further reduce its effect on me, I come from a culture where guns are not sexy, or sexual in any way. Interesting, pleasing, enjoyable, and many other things but never sexual. A personal ethos. I find those who equate firearms with anything sexual to be childish and immature. as even Freud is reported to have said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 15, 2022, 06:43 PM	#45
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Enough said about that distraction. I'm wondering which powders Sako2 has available to work with or can readily obtain....?

June 15, 2022, 09:17 PM	#46
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	Man did we take a left turn here. LOL. I'm going to load 7828 up to max and see what happens. I'll let everyone know.

June 15, 2022, 10:17 PM	#47
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	That should work. If I understand correctly, your 6.5 PRC is basically a short magnum similar to the WSM series. So with a 24" barrel, I would expect it to come close to the 270 WSM..... Last edited by Pathfinder45; June 16, 2022 at 12:16 AM. Reason: spelling

June 16, 2022, 04:58 AM	#48
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	Yes it is basically a 6.5 wsm. Powders I have are imr4831,h4931,rl26,imr7828,ramshot magnum,6.5 staball.

June 16, 2022, 06:29 AM	#50
sako2 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2009 Posts: 744	I have lapua brass to try. How is the weight consistency on the peterson brass. I have a good load with rl26 at 2950. Looking at the data most of the accurate loads are around 2900. 57gn of rl26 gave me a es of 9 and sd of 3. Have 24lb of it. 61.9gn of magnum give me a es of30 and sd of 13. Have 20lb of that. Also have 24lb of 6.5 staball. And 16lb of 7828. BTW 7828 works really well in my 270 with a 140gn bullet.