Beating the SWAT team, Your suggestions?

[Rob Pincus]

Mike,

I agree with your comment that the defender in THIS scenario would be at a disadvantage, I misinterpreted your original statement... thought you were just taking the position that any defender would be at a disadvantage.

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-Essayons

[Brett Bellmore]

As a matter of public relations, the government can NOT be seen to lose in a standoff situation. If you fort up, and try to hold them at bay, they may sit it out for a while, but they'll eventually start escalating, to the point where a blockbuster bomb will land on your roof if that's what it takes. Look at how they treated the MOVE people!

So I'd say that if you're really planning on having a Swat team show up at your front door, you either surrender, or scoot FAST. Surrender doesn't take a lot of preparation, does it? Just practice your groveling, and hope that they don't stage an "accident"; It's your word against their's, after all, and you don't want to have to dispute their version of events via a medium.

In order to have any options at all, your front door is going to have to be durable enough that they bounce when they hit it; Ditto for your windows. You can buy doors that durable, with bolts which engage on all four sides. For the windows, they sell a plastic film in huricane areas which is suppose to stop wind blown debris, and which has stopped small arms fire on occasion.

Next, you need to know what's going down, without sticking your head out the window, and getting it shot off. Miniture cameras are real cheap these days; Conceal them around your property for complete coverage.

Now you need a way to communicate with the outside world; Can't call 911 if they cut the wires, can you? Or give your side of the story when the news reports that you're a drug gang. Get a cell phone under an assumed name.

Now you've given yourself time to think, and intelligence and communications. You need a way out. A tunnel would be ideal, if you can build it without outsiders knowing; Watch some old German POW movies... Incidentally, the tunnel doesn't have to be a dead loss if you're not attacked; It would make a nifty basement range, wouldn't it?

Next: You want them to think that you're still in the house, while you're getting out of Dodge! That way the manhunt is delayed a bit. Another use for that cell phone, on hands free. You can negotiate with the HRT while negotiating traffic. And some remote controlled pyrotechnics, to convince them that you're there and ARMED.

Finally comes the kicker: Do you want to draw blood, or make them think? I'd go with a simulated bomb, and a note to let them know that they'd be dead if you'd wanted it that way. And while you're at it, conceal a few webcams around the place, to catch them on video when they plant the incriminating evidence.

Have fun, and remember: You better get all the details right the first time; You're NOT going to have a chance to do it over again!

P.S. I suppose it goes without saying that you'd better have a fake identity already established, along with caches of clothing and the like.

P.P.S. Of course, to make it really sweet, arrange for your fake identity to be raided!

[This message has been edited by Brett Bellmore (edited August 20, 1999).]

[George Hill]

Are you writting a book?
Just asking - cause this could all end up in a very interesting bit of fiction.

I am working on a book - but it is going in a different direction here... Maybe I might use some of this at another time.

What? I might USE something from here?
Aw heck yes - a writter draws from EVERY THING... And if I may - we got a lot of Charicters here!



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"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac

[TEX]

There is a way to stop them cold no matter how many of them there are or how well armed they are, but I am sure not discussing it here, but it involves a self contained breathing system, about 12 feet of det cord and one other item. Better plan on leaving the country though.

[Gino]

Sorry to come in late... I know enough LEO in my community, that if there was a problem, they'd come on over, knock on my door, and ask me about it. No SWAT team needed. It pays to live in a small town! And it pays to have a good reputation...

[This message has been edited by Gino (edited August 24, 1999).]

[OBIWAN]

Claymores, and an escape tunnel!

[HankL]

Forget FAIR they won't play that way!
Just be your loyal law abiding, military serving self and you will be fine!
Hank

[TheBluesMan]

There is NO way for a moral person to beat them. Are you going to try to kill these men for doing their jobs. The SWAT team takes orders from their superiors. You think their boss is going to be first through your door? Besides, once your door is broken down, you can't hope to win, you can only hope to survive. Check out this thread on a related note: http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/fo...threadid=32492


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"A right is not what someone gives you; it's what no one can take from you." - Ramsay Clark

"Rights are liable to be perverted to wrongs when we are incapable of rightly exercising them." - Sarah Josepha Hale

[Spectre]

Blues Man,

It almost sounds as though you are giving the "Nuremburg defense" for obeying illegal orders. Following an illegal order makes the follower legally culpable. This would make a very high percentage of all ATF actions illegal, of course, as they involve firearm "infractions" that are infringements on our firearm rights. So, following an illegal order on a SWAT team not only makes the agent, de facto, a criminal, but an armed and motivated one, at that. One potentially in my place of abode.

Going back to something said at the beginning of the thread, and touched upon slighly since, are the problems associated with using a pistol-calibered round against SBA. That's why God made rifles and slugs. If you have to go to a gunfight, a longarm should be what you reach for. If it's going to be that size, you might as well have a real caliber, as well. 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm would be ideal for most, I think, with 7.62x51mm excelling in experienced hands.

One philosophy that should be considered in any conflict is this idea: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Don't fight their fight.[/quote] If your potential opponents like short-range Class Three squirt guns, use longer-range platforms. If you face those who like the dark, stay in the light. If your enemies like secrecy, stay public...you get the idea. There is an ultimate conclusion to all this, but I leave the reader to deduce it.

[Dennis]

Spectre,

The government disregards our Constitution, makes laws by edict, and decrees what is
legal or illegal. We, as subjects, can not change that.

The key is to re-define what is “legal”. Return to Constitutional Law and become citizens
again! Vote the Bushes, Clintons, Freehs, Gores, Renos, etc. out of office and replace
them with officials who will abide by the Constitution.

You know what the answer is. And it’s NOT trying to kill a superior armed force of up to
a hundred armed and trained militarized police officers who take you by surprise at 3AM.
That only gets good Americans killed one by one and justifies further government
terrorism in the legislatures, courts, and our para-military police force.

Don’t get killed. Vote the blighters out!

If you change the leaders, you change the policy.
If you change the policy, you change the procedures.
If you change the procedures, the SWAT problem goes away.

Vote - for a change!


[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited August 28, 1999).]

[Rob62]

While totally off topic, I thought I would add my 2 cents worth. Someone quoted; "Remember, the defender is always, always at a disadvantage." This is not a true statement (if the author wants we can discuss this off line). The defender (in a classic defense/offense scenario) has all the advantages over the attacker except for 2. Those being the attacker can choose the exact time and place of attack. In the case of a home or residence the place of attack would be the point of penetration, such as the front door, front main window, read bedroom window, etc. By "hardening" his home a defender can hold off quite a few bad people. That is why an attacker will normally attack with a ratio of 3 or 5:1.

Now having said the above I will go on record with many of the others here and say that I would NOT recomend going head to head with any SWAT team. In the long run you WILL loose.

Obey the law, be low key, don't display guns and or other shooting paraphanalia that can be seen by someone looking in your windows, and you *should* be OK.

Rob

RKBA!


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It's amazing what a large group of stupid people can accomplish.
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[Prichard]

Spectre,

The "Nuremburg defense" is used quite often on this forum by LE in regards to the multitude of unConstitutional things that a tyranical state allows them to do.

[TABING]

In my experience,(Afghanistan against Soviet regulars, sympathisers, and Spetsnaz) an attacking force can be overcome by overwhelming firepower, preplaced HE spiked with broken glass,nails and feces for the long lasting disease effects. Disguised trenches filled with combustable materials to be ignited at the appropriate time, along with sharpened,feces-treated spikes accompanies the scenario.

This kind of resistance quickly saps the morale of the attacking force. (After all the ATF assault in Waco foundered after losing only four agents)

A safehouse (usually caves to preclude both aircraft and tank attack) has to be prepared with a combination of the above in addition to preplanned diversionary actions, (bringing half a mountain side down on top of the attackers) and a secure escape plan, preferably backed up by outside support forces.
Good intlligence also goes a long way.
The Afghans are a poor, but extremely resouceful people, especially when it comes to defending their God and homeland.
Of course they never had to worry about "going to jail", the options were prevail or die. This serves as great motivation.

On the other extreme, the ultimate resistant place would be a missle silo, so that only a direct nuclear hit would take it out.

[Byron Quick]

I am a law abiding citizen. I have malice toward none. However, I can read and comprehend the English language. I have read the Bill of Rights and do not need it interpreted by the Supreme Court (please point me to the place in the Constitution that empowers the Supreme Court to do this).
If I am served a search warrant I will comply with it peacefully at once. If I am surrounded in my house and told to surrender I will do so at once. We can let the attorneys hash it out. If my house is entered forcefully there will be two ways to go: kill me or die. Mistake? You realize it and apologize at once? Sorry, too late. Same two ways to go.

You can follow the Fourth and Fifth Amendments as they read or suffer the consequences. The consequences? Death or life as a jack booted thug. I'd prefer death myself.

My personal situation is such that I do not have the weight some give to wife and children.

"Is peace so sweet or life so dear as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery...?"

They are oft overlooked but at least a couple of hundred thousand Germans died in during the Nazi era for refusing to be good Gestapo police and SS troops. They were not executed cleanly-not one. I'm with them. **** orders, **** the career, and **** the retirement. If my career leads me on such a path it is time to dig ditches if that is all the honest work I can find.

[Dennis]

Wow! Spartacus, nicely put.

All,
This thread is long, slow to load, presumably yearns to be active.
Time for Part 2!