New 1000 yd Service Rifle Record

[Elkslayer]

SSG Chris "Wild Bill" Hatcher shot a 200-7x to win and set a new Interservice 1000 yard service Rifle record. The old record was 199-7x.

Since Interservice is not considered an NRA match, Hatcher's record is not an official NRA record; it is, however, to my knowledge the only 200 ever fired with a Service Rifle.

...BTW he did it with his AR15...

[C.R.Sam]

WOW

Sam

[WIL TERRY]

I'M SPEECHLESS....
WITH A DINKY MOUSEGUN NO LESS...
WOW!!!

[Gewehr98]

Here I thought .223 bullets would just bounce off the paper at 1000 yards. Wonder how much elevation he had to dial in, I'm assuming the mousegun had to have A2-style sights?

[Steve Smith]

I read abot this yesterday. I should have posted this, but I didn't figure anyone will be interested. I'll keep you guys posted on futre accomplishments.

BTW, you guys keep thinking that what I say about the AR is bunk. The M14 was in Highpower matches for over 30 years. In the 8 years that the AR has been popular in HP, EVERY title held by M14s have fallen to the AR. Wht a great machine it is for accuracy.

Chris Hatcher is a great guy. He's a fellow Coloradan and I have received some excellent coaching from him in the past. What a shooter.

BTW, the across-the-course Interservice was won on Saturday (I think) by SFC Grant Singley. It was his THIRD win if the event in three years. the match has two 600 yard slow prone portions (40 rounds at 600 yards plus the standard 20 at 20 standing, 20 rapid at 200 sitting, and 20 rapid at 300 prone). That is a 1000 point aggregate, and he scored a 990-57x. THAT is some serious shooting as well.

Those AMU guys can really shoot.

Gewehr98, I have forgotten how much elevation is used, but yes, all Service Rifle matches are fired with A2 AR sights that comply with CMP and NRA Service Rifle rules.

[larryw]

Can you explain the scoring in these 1000 yard matches. What does 200-7X mean and what are the target/ring sizes?

thanks,
LW

[Redlg155]

That is some serious shooting!

I would have never believed it could have been done with an AR.

Thats definitely a once in a lifetime day when everything went perfect.

Good SHooting
RED

[C.R.Sam]

200 7X means that all twenty shots went in the 10 ring, and 7 of those were in the X ring inside of the 10. Xs are used as tie breakers.

Perfect would have been 200 20X.

Steve.......keep em comin.

Sam

[Pvt. Joker]

10" at 1000yds... Wouldn't that roughly equall 1 MOA?


-Jared

[larryw]

I couldn't even see a 10" circle at 1000 yards, let alone hit one.

I remember reading about the "morning glory effect" in Col. Cooper's (required reading) The Art of the Rifle which stated that 1" @ 100 yards is not equal to 2" at 200 or 10" at 1000 because of all the variables involved. All I can say is 200-7X at 1000 yards borders on unreal.

Thanks guys, with this understanding I have a newfound appreciation of the skill involved.

[k77/22rp]

That is amazing!!!!!

Anyone with a ballistics program want to post velocity and energy at that distance.

Just for curiosity's sake.

[Long Path]

Steve, what load, bullet weight, rifling twist was Hatcher using? (Great legacy of his name, BTW!)



I'm speechless. Consider how impressive it would be to see a man fire a simple 20 shot 1" group at 100 yds with an iron-sighted service rifle. Now square the level of difficulty, and you still haven't scratched the surface of the achievement, here.

[Cheapo]

When someone cleans the target in HP, their group is generally about 1.5 MOA . You can clean it with a 2 MOA group, but only of the group is perfectly centered.

This is prone with a sling, 20 shots in 20 minutes (22 minutes if you get two sighters) AND YOU GET TO FIGHT WIND DRIFT AND VERTICAL STRINGING IF YOUR AMMO HEATS UP and all sorts of stuff like the optical effect of mirage displacing the image of your target.

BTW, in the .30 calibers, the cone of dispersion went something like a 1 MOA at 100 yards would be 1.2 MOA at 200 yards and something like 1.6 MOA at 600 yards. My oldoldold info is a bit buried right now, but the "flare" is not dramatic and something to contend with at longer ranges.

The ones I shot with would call that performance "holding hard."

The mousegun can do great things now that it has better barrels and especiallly if you cheatabit with long-loaded 80-gr VLD bullets that won't load in the magazine.

This level of performance is not to be expected with NATO-spec 63-gr ammo!

Mighty fine shooting!

[Jamie Young]

What bullet weight was he using?

[Steve Smith]

Sorry, I still don't have a home computer....


I cannot say what either gentleman was using specifically, the AMU keeps a tight lid on their loads. However, for Grant Singley's performance, I know a little. I know the AMU switched to the 77gr Sierra MatchKing for thee shortline loads (200 and 300 yards) and they're still using 80 grain SMK's for 600 yards. That is almost a standard setup for all Highpower shoters these days. It really works well. Chances are thay they are using VV135 or 140 I'd guess for the powder, or RL-15. That part, they won't tell, but I know what some of the guys use that are shooting in the Ft. Blanding area are using, if you know what I mean.

The 1K load, is I'd guess, the new 90 grain JLK. All that Grant's dad (Gary Singley) was allowed to say was that they were "awful pointy" which to me says 90 grain. Twist would be 1 in 6.5".

I and many other HP shooters could probably hold near-1"-1.25" at 100 yards from prone, but to deal with wind and mirage screwing up what your aiming black looks like at 1000 yards, that is a real trick. I've fired several 194s in slow prone, but this is truly on the boundary of unreal.

[HankB]

That's better than I can even see with iron sights at 1000 yards! That's tremendous shooting!

Since this was a "service rifle" record, does this mean the rifle functioned as an autoloader, with the second and subsequent shots loaded from the magazine, or is "cheating" allowed, with the heavy bullets loaded long, and loaded singly into a specially-cut chamber?

And as far as the AR breaking the old M14's highpower records . . . yes, the AR can be made superlatively accurate . . . but some question whether or not a rifle in a caliber too small to be legal for deer hunting in many states is truly high power! (Flame me not - it's not like the .223/.308 comparison hasn't been beaten to death repeatedly.)

[Steve Smith]

Sorry, HankB, but a shooting competition is rarely about killing anything but paper, regardless of the caliber. Folks, please drop the caliber war BS, please?

If you want to consider single loading "cheating" then yes, that was used by both Grant and Chris at 600 and 1000 yard lines. You can't get that long bullet into the case and still have room for enough powder. FYI, M14ers were single loading long before the AR was even seen on the line at Camp Perry. The RULES state that in slowfire events (200 yard standing, 600 and 1000 yard prone) ALL rounds will be single loaded.

For Grant's across-the-course performance, all but the 600 yard portion was mag-length, and the rapid fire portions were fired from the magazine.

[Jamie Young]

I think it was all pure luck. Anyone could have done that.

[Erich]

Yeah, Soda, get out your Mini-14 and show them how it's done!

[Steve Smith]

I have a good feeling Soda just trying to get a rise out of us.

[rock_jock]

600 and 1000 yard prone

Oh, prone. I thought he was getting those groups standing and I thought "Impossible". Being prone just makes it incredible. BTW, as impressive as this is, your description of the various specialty loads and equipment sort of reminds me of IPSC and their world of highly modified raceguns. Personally, I like competitions where "off-the-shelf" stuff is used, like IDPA. Are there any records kept for using standard 55-gr govt.-issued ball?

[Correia]

That is totally amazing shooting. To most folks with 20/20 vision a 10 inch target at 1000 yards looks like a fly speck on the far side of you living room.

[hps1]

Hank B:

That's better than I can even see with iron sights at 1000 yards! That's tremendous shooting!

Yes that is tremendous shooting!

The target used for 800, 900 and 1000 yard shooting has a 44" aiming black (8 ring). That last 100 yards (900-1000) _really_ separates the men from the boys! It is a real thrill to watch the AMU shooters at work.

Regards,
hps

[EchoFiveMike]

I'd guess it was either the 90JLK or a 80gn VLD design. You can't throw the 80SMK's hard enough from the 20" barrel to get it done at 1K, not at sane pressures anyways. Last year the Marines were talking about the AMU using "high pressure" LR loads, so that may be it. I don't know for sure, I use a 7mm Mag at 1K, and 196-6x is my best effort to date. I shot with Grant when he was an IL junior shooter, as well as a couple other guys on the AMU so I'll see if I can weasel it out of them. Maybe I'll just steal some of their ammo. After all, Marines are always stealing from the Army anyways

So Steve, you going to Perry next week? If so, swing by the JJ huts and look up the IL shooters. Ask for the 27YO Marine named Ken and you'll get me. S/F...Ken M

[Steve Smith]

"Oh, prone. I thought he was getting those groups standing and I thought "Impossible". Being prone just makes it incredible. BTW, as impressive as this is, your description of the various specialty loads and equipment sort of reminds me of IPSC and their world of highly modified raceguns. Personally, I like competitions where "off-the-shelf" stuff is used, like IDPA. Are there any records kept for using standard 55-gr govt.-issued ball?"


I can't believe I just read that. A Service Rife AR IS available off the shelf, and it is not very different from any other AR. The differences are:

Better trigger
free float handguards
Better barrel

There's not much to do to an AR to make it shoot that well. The performance is truly in the shooter. Please don't attempt to cheapen Chris' or Grant's accomplishments by saying that they are not realistic guns. They are FAR from what you are envisioning. The comparison of their guns to an IPSC Open class gun is rediculous. I challenge you to try shooting Highpower in Service Rifle class. You'll see just how "real" the rifles are, and how remarkable these accomplishments were.

Ammunition should always be selected base on the use. I would not use match bullets for hunting or armor piercing, why would I use ball ammo for matches? 55 grain ball is a joke. You may shoot whatever ammo you'd like at a match. Perhaps you'd like to try it with some 55 grain ball somtime? Fighting the inaccracy of the bullet is not part of judging how good a shoter is.

Bottom line: Highpower Rifle, and more specifically Service Rifle division, has always been a challenge against the shooter, not the equipment. Good scores are always dependent on the shooter, not his equipment.

Ken, I will not be a Perry this year. I have yet to make the pilgrimage. You guys in IL don't know how good you have it. I'm in CO and will have to drive quite a bit further to get to Port Clinton. I plan to go to CMP and NRA week next year. My wife also wants to go. She will be a volunteer those two weeks. We will be in a hut probably, so we get the true "Perry experience." My wife is pretty cool about that stuff. Hopefully the NRA will get off their butts and issue me a Master card before then. We'll see. I may have some Leg points in by then, too. It would be sweet to go Distinguished at Perry. Of course, going Distinguished anywhere would be great. I hope to have a Colorado based team for the 6 and 10 man team matches and a Rattle Battle team by then too...we'll see.