AP bullet questions

Sam Adams · July 25, 2002, 02:41 PM

I am planning to acquire some .308 diameter AP bullets and reload them in my Garand. I may also do so for a Rem 700 in .308. Before I do it, I'd appreciate any input from those of you with some experience on the following:

1) Do these bullets damage your barrel? I am concerned because the core, being steel, will not deform like a "normal" lead core, and thus cause some damage.

2) Assuming that the answer to #1 is "no," then what kind of loads has anyone developed for 30.06 and .308? What kind of accuracy have you obtained?

Thanks.

critter44 · July 25, 2002, 03:21 PM

NO EXPERT HERE!!!, BUT didn't somebody say earlier that BATF has cast a "no-no" on 308 rounds loaded with AM bullets? Seem to remember that they classed it as a 'handgun' round (in which AP is NOT allowed) because somebody made a handgun chambered for it. (Yeah, I know that now you can get 'handguns' chambered in most anything and BATF is not too logical.) Better to err on the safe side till you know.

Anybody else know for sure? Don't want to get anybody in trouble.

Sam Adams · July 25, 2002, 03:25 PM

Critter44 - to me this is not an issue. It has been discussed in other threads, including a very well documented FAQ, and the consensus is that the bullet itself is considered the AP round, not the "full" round. It is only a crime for a non-licensed person to manufacture it. Merely taking an existing bullet and loading it into a case is not illegal, even for .308.

Southla1 · July 25, 2002, 06:31 PM

I seem to remember that thread and the consensus was that it was legal. Personally I would look into it some more te be damn sure, but anyhow as far as loading them go here is my experience in ought six. First they will not harm the rifle any. We used to take 06 Match ball back in the 60's and pull the bullet and seat an AP on top of it on one of the USAF High power teams I was on. We found SLIGHTLY better accuracy (probably more mental trhan actual

) with the AP than the match bullet. I came across some on E-Bay a few months ago and loaded them in LC-68 USGI -06 cases and they are just as accurate (if not slightly moreso)as M2 ball in both my M1 and my 03A3 (4 groove).

Use any load that is safe with 165 grain bullets. The average weight of Cal 30 AP is 163 grains. I use a load of IMR-4895 that I woked up for mine. I will not post it here because it is a lot of surplus NON-canister 4895. No need to load to max anyway IMHO. I could probably go 3 grains higher without any pressure problems at all. Chronographed speed is in the high 2500 to low 2600 FPS range. That makes a fine light shooting load plus you dont have to worry about bent op-rods in an M1.

Man oh man I got to learn to check these posts for my famous spelling and typos before I log off!

C.R.Sam · July 25, 2002, 10:19 PM

#1.....No.

For insurance....weigh your bullets. Some .308 AP is quite heavy, (Not U.S. that I can think of.)

Also make sure they are AP and not API. Don't want to go round startin fires. Our API is lighter than AP....more like 150gr.

Check the legality for yourself.

Not loadin to max is excellant advice. For most things.

Sam

rocko · July 26, 2002, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Use any load that is safe with 165 grain bullets. The average weight of Cal 30 AP is 163 grains. I use a load of IMR-4895 that I woked up for mine. I will not post it here because it is a lot of surplus NON-canister 4895. No need to load to max anyway IMHO. I could probably go 3 grains higher without any pressure problems at all. Chronographed speed is in the high 2500 to low 2600 FPS range. That makes a fine light shooting load plus you dont have to worry about bent op-rods in an M1.

What about the COL? I'd think the AP bullet would need to be significantly longer than a lead bullet of similar weight, being that the steel is of course lighter than lead. I'm presuming they would have a cannelure - is it safe to seat 30-06 AP at the cannelure in .308?

Rocko

Abe Normal · July 28, 2002, 06:38 AM

Below is the information to view the FAQ regarding AP ammunition.

308 AP Reloading info for... featherman
Handloading and Reloading 14 227 02-17-2002 06:49 PM
by DFBonnett

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=101820

Southla1 · July 28, 2002, 02:41 PM

"is it safe to seat 30-06 AP at the cannelure in .308?"

Good question rocko.

IMHO it would be ok if starting loads are used, (which should be started with anyway when working up a new load). I never loaded them in a 7.62MM (.308) because I do not own one but my experience is all with loading them in "ought sixes". The load I am using now shoots as accurately as 173 grain USGI match in regular LC-68 cases.

Sam Adams · July 29, 2002, 10:46 AM

Southla1 - so, what is your load for 30.06? What kind of accuracy do you get, and out of what rifle?

Southla1 · August 4, 2002, 09:44 AM

Sorry for the delay in answering Sam but I was in the Caribbean for a few days enjoying the Marguritas and Senoritas

.

I use 47 grains of IMR 4895 for 150 grain Ball and 46 grains for the 163 AP in 30-06. This is with a NON-CANISTER powder however.

This stuff will shoot into 1" with my 03A3 (scoped and glass bedded sporterized) and better than I can see ( 2 1/2 inches or better) in my M-1 for 5 shots at 100 yards.

Cheapo · August 7, 2002, 04:44 PM

Just watch out if you're using '06 bullets in 7.62mm NATO. Using the crimping groove will result in too-long loads to use in most magazines.

Sam Adams · September 4, 2002, 01:12 PM

Southla1 - thanks for the load info. I've got an M1, and I'd love to see if I can match your accuracy.

Cheapo - thanks for the advice concerning OAL. How about that problem in a Remington 700?

Sam Adams · June 6, 2007, 05:28 PM

I'm resurrecting this thread. Does anyone have personal experience loading .30 AP rounds into either .30-'06 or .308/7.62x51 cases? Same for .308 bolt guns. If so, please post loads and results.

BTW, AP in .30 cal can either be the 163 or so grain bullets that were pulled from .30-'06 ammo, or can be the newer M61 152 or so grainer meant for 7.62x51 or .30-'06 (it has 2 cannalures).

PLEASE, no questions about the legality of the loading - it has been established on several threads here and on THR that the manufacturing of the projectile itself is considered making AP ammo, NOT taking an already-manufactured AP bullet and loading it into a cartridge. Besides, the M2 bullet is specifically listed in the law as NOT being considered AP ammo for purposes of the law.

Thanks for any input.

rg1 · June 6, 2007, 07:12 PM

46 to 46.5 grains of IMR4895, RP 9 1/2 primer, RP cases shoots good in my Garand and Remington 742. MY overall length varies depending on sharpness of the bullet tip, from 3.320-3.330". This is with the 163grain AP designed for the 30-06. Velocity is approx. 2650fps in my Garand. I'd start a little low and work up checking for signs of pressure. Don't know how they'd be in a .308 as the 163 AP is quite long and the cannelure is correct for only the 30-06 case.

Stargazer · June 6, 2007, 07:59 PM

I used 43.5 grains of WIN 748 in my AP's. Not a burner round but somewhere between 2500-2600 I figure according to load data. New Winchester cases and standard rifle primers. Feeds and shoots just fine out of my FAL.

This is what the rounds did to mild steel, 1/2" thick. It was held up by a 4x4 brake drum and the round did this to the steel and then went through the brake drum in a nice round hole as well. 40-50 yards was the distance.

The "dent" is what a normal SA ball round did to the steel.

Here is the same loading with an API. They do not pentrate as well as a normal AP does, not as much steel inside. But they do what they were intended to do, poke a hole, cause a leak and send a match all at the same time. Same piece of steel as above. It did NOT go all the way through but did poke out of the other side.

Sam Adams · June 7, 2007, 02:35 PM

Stargazer, where did you get the API? I have 8 rounds that I got for about $20 at a gun show a while back, and I haven't seen any since. I haven't fired any (thanks for the photo), but ultimately I'm going to reload the bullets into my cases with my powder and non-corrosive primers.

Sam Adams · June 7, 2007, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Don't know how they'd be in a .308 as the 163 AP is quite long and the cannelure is correct for only the 30-06 case.

I don't think that these were ever intended for .308 (esp. since most of the complete AP rounds that I've seen are dated sometime during WW2, when .308 wasn't even an idea yet). I believe that the M61 bullets (147-152 grains, depending on where they're advertised or discussed, though the mil-spec weight is 150.5 grains) are specifically designed for the 7.62x51 round fired by the M14.

Stargazer · June 7, 2007, 03:41 PM

Sam, a guy that sold bullets and cases for reloading at a gun show had some under the table. You had to ask for them. Cost me $1 each, $50 for a very small bag of items. I still have (40) loaded up and ready to use on pesky critters if and when they are ever needed. Hunting, of course.

Sam Adams · June 7, 2007, 04:33 PM

Stargazer

Quote:

I used 43.5 grains of WIN 748 in my AP's. Not a burner round but somewhere between 2500-2600 I figure according to load data. New Winchester cases and standard rifle primers. Feeds and shoots just fine out of my FAL.

So which tips did you use, the 163 grainers, or the lighter ones meant for the 7.62x51? Obviously the FAL is in .308. What OAL?

Stargazer · June 7, 2007, 06:02 PM

I used the 163 grainers with 165 load data. OL is 2.82", same as my SA milsurp. Since I use Lee dies I used the factory crimp die to crimp the case down good against the bullet. It is not at the cannelure but the Lee die crimps it good so it isn't going anywhere.

lonniemike · June 7, 2007, 09:28 PM

Sorry, I don't load for the 308, however I do load for the 308's ballistic twin, the 7.5X55.
Let me see if I got it all correct. My 163 AP's that shoot real good, but not quite as good as my 173-4 Nat Match, must be defective as they don't shoot better that the 173-4's! And I need to locate/find some hard to find, US made(or are they not US made?)-approximately 152 grain, API bullets at about a dollar apiece. Maybe they will be even cheaper if I am lucky. I would guess, maybe, that they were designed for the Vietman era M14 rifle. Then I'll need to find a cartridge length that will cycle through the magazine, chamber, and have the most accurate OAL in can find.
This is an interesting thread. Now I guess I've got some buying and experimenting to make up some more huntin ammo. best-o-luck all

Sam Adams · June 8, 2007, 01:45 PM

I also load for the 7.5x55. I love developing my own loads for various rifles, and I'm very pleased when I can do better with my own (cheaper than factory) loads than the gov't requirements (i.e. better than 4 MOA, which is really no trick in a decent quality rifle, even a surplus one). I have a bunch of (as yet unloaded) 173 grain match bullets. Even though they aren't up to the standards of modern commercial match bullets, they're damned good and about 1/2 the price. They're not much more expensive than standard FMJs, but must surely offer better performance. I got them primarily for my K-31, but will try them in my other .30 rifles.

BTW, the 152 or so grain APs (M61) can be had for lots less than $1.00 a pop. Look around, they're in the $0.20-$0.30 range, depending on quality and quantity. Yes, they were made primarily for the M14, but they have 2 cannalures, one for the .30-06 and one for the M14.

lonniemike · June 8, 2007, 08:23 PM

Thanks Sam, I've got hundreds of AP's. I'll be looking for the API's!!! best-o-luck

July 25, 2002, 06:31 PM	#4
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	I seem to remember that thread and the consensus was that it was legal. Personally I would look into it some more te be damn sure, but anyhow as far as loading them go here is my experience in ought six. First they will not harm the rifle any. We used to take 06 Match ball back in the 60's and pull the bullet and seat an AP on top of it on one of the USAF High power teams I was on. We found SLIGHTLY better accuracy (probably more mental trhan actual ) with the AP than the match bullet. I came across some on E-Bay a few months ago and loaded them in LC-68 USGI -06 cases and they are just as accurate (if not slightly moreso)as M2 ball in both my M1 and my 03A3 (4 groove). Use any load that is safe with 165 grain bullets. The average weight of Cal 30 AP is 163 grains. I use a load of IMR-4895 that I woked up for mine. I will not post it here because it is a lot of surplus NON-canister 4895. No need to load to max anyway IMHO. I could probably go 3 grains higher without any pressure problems at all. Chronographed speed is in the high 2500 to low 2600 FPS range. That makes a fine light shooting load plus you dont have to worry about bent op-rods in an M1. Man oh man I got to learn to check these posts for my famous spelling and typos before I log off! Last edited by Southla1; July 26, 2002 at 07:13 AM.

July 28, 2002, 06:38 AM	#7
Abe Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 1999 Location: Eastern North Carolina Posts: 104	Below is the information to view the FAQ regarding AP ammunition. 308 AP Reloading info for... featherman Handloading and Reloading 14 227 02-17-2002 06:49 PM by DFBonnett http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...hreadid=101820 __________________ Abe If everyone thought like me, I'd be a damn fool to think any different!

August 7, 2002, 04:44 PM	#11
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	Just watch out if you're using '06 bullets in 7.62mm NATO. Using the crimping groove will result in too-long loads to use in most magazines. __________________ Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.

June 6, 2007, 05:28 PM	#13
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	I'm resurrecting this thread. Does anyone have personal experience loading .30 AP rounds into either .30-'06 or .308/7.62x51 cases? Same for .308 bolt guns. If so, please post loads and results. BTW, AP in .30 cal can either be the 163 or so grain bullets that were pulled from .30-'06 ammo, or can be the newer M61 152 or so grainer meant for 7.62x51 or .30-'06 (it has 2 cannalures). PLEASE, no questions about the legality of the loading - it has been established on several threads here and on THR that the manufacturing of the projectile itself is considered making AP ammo, NOT taking an already-manufactured AP bullet and loading it into a cartridge. Besides, the M2 bullet is specifically listed in the law as NOT being considered AP ammo for purposes of the law. Thanks for any input. __________________ "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams "Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788 "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams "Love work, hate domination, and do not let your name come to the attention of the ruling powers." -- The Talmud, "Sayings of the Fathers" Last edited by Sam Adams; June 7, 2007 at 02:32 PM.

June 6, 2007, 07:59 PM	#15
Stargazer Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 506	I used 43.5 grains of WIN 748 in my AP's. Not a burner round but somewhere between 2500-2600 I figure according to load data. New Winchester cases and standard rifle primers. Feeds and shoots just fine out of my FAL. This is what the rounds did to mild steel, 1/2" thick. It was held up by a 4x4 brake drum and the round did this to the steel and then went through the brake drum in a nice round hole as well. 40-50 yards was the distance. The "dent" is what a normal SA ball round did to the steel. Here is the same loading with an API. They do not pentrate as well as a normal AP does, not as much steel inside. But they do what they were intended to do, poke a hole, cause a leak and send a match all at the same time. Same piece of steel as above. It did NOT go all the way through but did poke out of the other side. __________________ 5.56mm, reach out and touch something. .458 SOCOM,reach out and knock something down. M70 Web Page Last edited by Stargazer; June 6, 2007 at 08:05 PM. Reason: addition

July 25, 2002, 02:41 PM	#1
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	AP bullet questions I am planning to acquire some .308 diameter AP bullets and reload them in my Garand. I may also do so for a Rem 700 in .308. Before I do it, I'd appreciate any input from those of you with some experience on the following: 1) Do these bullets damage your barrel? I am concerned because the core, being steel, will not deform like a "normal" lead core, and thus cause some damage. 2) Assuming that the answer to #1 is "no," then what kind of loads has anyone developed for 30.06 and .308? What kind of accuracy have you obtained? Thanks.

July 25, 2002, 03:21 PM	#2
critter44 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 247	NO EXPERT HERE!!!, BUT didn't somebody say earlier that BATF has cast a "no-no" on 308 rounds loaded with AM bullets? Seem to remember that they classed it as a 'handgun' round (in which AP is NOT allowed) because somebody made a handgun chambered for it. (Yeah, I know that now you can get 'handguns' chambered in most anything and BATF is not too logical.) Better to err on the safe side till you know. Anybody else know for sure? Don't want to get anybody in trouble.

July 25, 2002, 03:25 PM	#3
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	Critter44 - to me this is not an issue. It has been discussed in other threads, including a very well documented FAQ, and the consensus is that the bullet itself is considered the AP round, not the "full" round. It is only a crime for a non-licensed person to manufacture it. Merely taking an existing bullet and loading it into a case is not illegal, even for .308.

July 25, 2002, 10:19 PM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	#1.....No. For insurance....weigh your bullets. Some .308 AP is quite heavy, (Not U.S. that I can think of.) Also make sure they are AP and not API. Don't want to go round startin fires. Our API is lighter than AP....more like 150gr. Check the legality for yourself. Not loadin to max is excellant advice. For most things. Sam

July 28, 2002, 02:41 PM	#8
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	"is it safe to seat 30-06 AP at the cannelure in .308?" Good question rocko. IMHO it would be ok if starting loads are used, (which should be started with anyway when working up a new load). I never loaded them in a 7.62MM (.308) because I do not own one but my experience is all with loading them in "ought sixes". The load I am using now shoots as accurately as 173 grain USGI match in regular LC-68 cases.

July 29, 2002, 10:46 AM	#9
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	Southla1 - so, what is your load for 30.06? What kind of accuracy do you get, and out of what rifle?

August 4, 2002, 09:44 AM	#10
Southla1 Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 19, 2000 Location: Jeanerette, La. Near the Posts: 1,999	Sorry for the delay in answering Sam but I was in the Caribbean for a few days enjoying the Marguritas and Senoritas . I use 47 grains of IMR 4895 for 150 grain Ball and 46 grains for the 163 AP in 30-06. This is with a NON-CANISTER powder however. This stuff will shoot into 1" with my 03A3 (scoped and glass bedded sporterized) and better than I can see ( 2 1/2 inches or better) in my M-1 for 5 shots at 100 yards.

September 4, 2002, 01:12 PM	#12
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	Southla1 - thanks for the load info. I've got an M1, and I'd love to see if I can match your accuracy. Cheapo - thanks for the advice concerning OAL. How about that problem in a Remington 700?

June 6, 2007, 07:12 PM	#14
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	46 to 46.5 grains of IMR4895, RP 9 1/2 primer, RP cases shoots good in my Garand and Remington 742. MY overall length varies depending on sharpness of the bullet tip, from 3.320-3.330". This is with the 163grain AP designed for the 30-06. Velocity is approx. 2650fps in my Garand. I'd start a little low and work up checking for signs of pressure. Don't know how they'd be in a .308 as the 163 AP is quite long and the cannelure is correct for only the 30-06 case.

June 7, 2007, 02:35 PM	#16
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	Stargazer, where did you get the API? I have 8 rounds that I got for about $20 at a gun show a while back, and I haven't seen any since. I haven't fired any (thanks for the photo), but ultimately I'm going to reload the bullets into my cases with my powder and non-corrosive primers. __________________ "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams "Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788 "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams "Love work, hate domination, and do not let your name come to the attention of the ruling powers." -- The Talmud, "Sayings of the Fathers" Last edited by Sam Adams; June 7, 2007 at 04:27 PM.

June 7, 2007, 03:41 PM	#18
Stargazer Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 506	Sam, a guy that sold bullets and cases for reloading at a gun show had some under the table. You had to ask for them. Cost me $1 each, $50 for a very small bag of items. I still have (40) loaded up and ready to use on pesky critters if and when they are ever needed. Hunting, of course. __________________ 5.56mm, reach out and touch something. .458 SOCOM,reach out and knock something down. M70 Web Page

June 7, 2007, 06:02 PM	#20
Stargazer Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 506	I used the 163 grainers with 165 load data. OL is 2.82", same as my SA milsurp. Since I use Lee dies I used the factory crimp die to crimp the case down good against the bullet. It is not at the cannelure but the Lee die crimps it good so it isn't going anywhere. __________________ 5.56mm, reach out and touch something. .458 SOCOM,reach out and knock something down. M70 Web Page

June 7, 2007, 09:28 PM	#21
lonniemike Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2005 Posts: 138	Sorry, I don't load for the 308, however I do load for the 308's ballistic twin, the 7.5X55. Let me see if I got it all correct. My 163 AP's that shoot real good, but not quite as good as my 173-4 Nat Match, must be defective as they don't shoot better that the 173-4's! And I need to locate/find some hard to find, US made(or are they not US made?)-approximately 152 grain, API bullets at about a dollar apiece. Maybe they will be even cheaper if I am lucky. I would guess, maybe, that they were designed for the Vietman era M14 rifle. Then I'll need to find a cartridge length that will cycle through the magazine, chamber, and have the most accurate OAL in can find. This is an interesting thread. Now I guess I've got some buying and experimenting to make up some more huntin ammo. best-o-luck all

June 8, 2007, 01:45 PM	#22
Sam Adams Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Somewhere in the Republic of Texas Posts: 250	I also load for the 7.5x55. I love developing my own loads for various rifles, and I'm very pleased when I can do better with my own (cheaper than factory) loads than the gov't requirements (i.e. better than 4 MOA, which is really no trick in a decent quality rifle, even a surplus one). I have a bunch of (as yet unloaded) 173 grain match bullets. Even though they aren't up to the standards of modern commercial match bullets, they're damned good and about 1/2 the price. They're not much more expensive than standard FMJs, but must surely offer better performance. I got them primarily for my K-31, but will try them in my other .30 rifles. BTW, the 152 or so grain APs (M61) can be had for lots less than $1.00 a pop. Look around, they're in the $0.20-$0.30 range, depending on quality and quantity. Yes, they were made primarily for the M14, but they have 2 cannalures, one for the .30-06 and one for the M14. __________________ "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." Samuel Adams "Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American." Tench Coxe 2/20/1788 "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams "Love work, hate domination, and do not let your name come to the attention of the ruling powers." -- The Talmud, "Sayings of the Fathers"

June 8, 2007, 08:23 PM	#23
lonniemike Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2005 Posts: 138	Thanks Sam, I've got hundreds of AP's. I'll be looking for the API's!!! best-o-luck