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Old September 9, 2002, 09:02 AM   #1
BrokenPaw
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(VA) In-home concealment (w/ pics and video)

Skunkabilly's thread, here , about roommates and long gun storage, was well-timed.

Just yesterday, I finished building a concealment/instant access vault into my house. Until recently, I had no need for such a thing, being a guy living alone. But when my girlfriend and her two kids moved in, suddenly the rules changed. Suddenly I had a curious 7-year-old boy and a precocious 10-year-old girl in the house, all the time. Including when I'm not there.

No more AR-15 in Condition 2 behind all of my clothes in the closet. No more Mossberg loaded with 00 Buck lurking behind the couch. No more P32 hidden in my underwear drawer when I'm not wearing it.

But no less need for instant access. We all know what the chances are of getting police response in time to actually help in a home-defense situation, and living way down a dirt road in the back-end of Manassas, Virginia doesn't help with response times.

So I bought a 1500-pound electromagnetic lock, and an APC UPS, and some other bits and pieces, and I built a concealed chamber into a dead space near my living room. I will post pics and a video of it opening when I get a chance, and if people are interested. The space I had to work with was small, but I have room to store 7 long guns and several handguns, as well as ammo and other related stuff. There are automatic lights inside, so that when it opens, you can see what you're grabbing.

The thing opens by RF remote control, and I am installing two remote hardwire switches in a different, concealed location in the house, inside a locked panel: An emergency-open switch, in case the batteries in the remotes die; and a "babysitter" switch, so that when I'm not home, nothing can open the vault at all.

The kids know about it, and they know what's in it, but none of their friends have to know, and none of my friends have to know, except the ones who are also shooters. I can train the kids to be safe, but I can't assume anything about their friends.

The project started out mainly as a "Gee, can I...?" investigation, and it turned out so well, and has already proven to be so handy, I'm considering starting a side business (I'm a software engineer by day) installing these things custom in people's homes. Since I live in northern Virginia, I'd have to start with only doing the work within 50 miles or so.

Anyone have any thoughts? Good idea? Bad idea? Anyone interested in becoming a First Customer?

-BP
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Last edited by BrokenPaw; September 11, 2002 at 06:09 PM.
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Old September 9, 2002, 11:26 AM   #2
MBG
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Interesting set up. I was house hunting earlier in the year, and kept my eyes open for potential hidy hole set ups like that. (I opted for the more traditional safe method.)

My first thought - don't put the TV by the electro magnet.

Outside of that, I do have a few questions. What is the time rating on the UPS to keep the electro magnet juiced? Does the lock default to lock open or closed on power failure from the UPS? Is the warning beep on the UPS turned off for when the power gets cut? Is the space fire proofed or hardened in any way, or just concealed?

The Washington Post did an article about the time the movie Panic Room came out, about contractors who did custom vaults and secure rooms in the DC area. You may want to do a search for it.

Good luck if you start the side venture.

Marty
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Old September 9, 2002, 11:57 AM   #3
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Quote:
Outside of that, I do have a few questions. What is the time rating on the UPS to keep the electro magnet juiced? Does the lock default to lock open or closed on power failure from the UPS? Is the warning beep on the UPS turned off for when the power gets cut? Is the space fire proofed or hardened in any way, or just concealed?
The UPS has a rating of 650VA. The mag-lock itself draws 800mA at 12V (through a standard wall-wart adaptor), so I have at least several hours of backup.

The lock defaults to open, and the door is under spring tension, so when the lock disengages, the door opens (actually it moves directly outwards, like a filing-cabinet drawer) about 18 inches. This is based upon my requirements as I see them; I designed the thing to fail open, knowing that if I'm in a long-term but non-badguy power outage, I can open the door, disable the door actuators, and re-lock the thing. Then, when UPS power ultimately gives out, the door won't be locked, but everything will still be concealed. I have a design option in mind for making the door remain locked in a power-loss situation, and I'll probably tinker with that next.

Currently, the UPS is set to beep on line-level drop. This is while I'm testing the thing. Once I'm satisfied that everything works as planned, I will switch it to silent.

The space is not fireproofed or hardened. The space I used would be a real nightmare to do either of those things to, so I left them out, and chose to go with concealment for protection. The door itself is heavy particleboard, and provides enough protection that no one could get into the compartment without waking me, but it certainly wouldn't stop a burglar if I wasn't home and he knew where to look.

-BP
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Old September 9, 2002, 12:37 PM   #4
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Very cool!

I would be most interested in pictures!

-SS
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Old September 9, 2002, 01:43 PM   #5
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Remodeling

I am currently re-modeling a bathroom in my Northern VA home and I came across some dead space when I was ripping down dry wall. Maybe it because I am weird, or because when I was a kid I actually visited Anne Franke's family hide-away from the Nazi's in Amsterdam, but my first thought was, "OH!! I could make this trap door and actually hide stuff in there." The way the walls were there was no way you could sfigure out this dead space was there unless you built the house.

Once I started to look at the logistics, and the fact that the wife would not approve of such trap door in our master bathroom, I nixed the idea.

Still, a concealed storage area, whether its for firearms, cash, extra DVD's of "the Matrix," or what have you, is a very cool idea! Please, if you dont mind, post some pictures.

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Old September 9, 2002, 10:19 PM   #6
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Check that UPS periodically by unplugging it.

I had a couple APCs go completely dead at work with no indication of a problem (even with diag software) except that when you unplug them (power loss), the outlets go dead instantly! It wasn't the batteries either, we replaced them and they never charged.
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Old September 9, 2002, 10:54 PM   #7
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Could you design a vault with two compartments with seperate locking mechanisms? Perhaps it could have a compartment which would have the lock set to be open in case of a power loss. Then another space with a lock that would be closed. What I'm thinking is that with it done this way you could have a compartment for your carry and home defense guns,which you could always access, and another for valuables, which would always be locked. The second compartment could perhaps be concealed under a false floor for added security. The second space might not stop a thief from taking your stuff, but it would make it harder.
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Old September 10, 2002, 08:19 AM   #8
USMC NAM GRUNT
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Sounds like something I could use. What should I expect to pay for something like that?
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Old September 10, 2002, 09:24 AM   #9
BrokenPaw
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Quote:
Could you design a vault with two compartments with seperate locking mechanisms?
That'd be relatively simple. There are two main types of electronic security locks. Ones called "fail-safe" will automatically open if they lose power, to avoid trapping someone inside a locked compartment in the event of a power failure. Magnetic locks like the ones I've used in my vault are considered "fail-safe" locks. "Fail-secure" locks, like electric door strikes, will leave a compartment locked in the event of a power failure, and until power is restored, entry cannot be gained unless there is a secondary access device (like a physical key).

It would be quite simple to put a fail-safe device on one compartment, and a fail-secure device on the other. Or, you could just put a standard gun safe or lockbox inside the fail-safe compartment, and store things that don't need instant access inside that lockbox.

-BP
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- Ardaynes #38
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Old September 10, 2002, 10:23 AM   #10
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Very cool project. Wish I was that mechanically inclined.
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Old September 10, 2002, 10:39 AM   #11
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BrokenPaw...

"But when my girlfriend and her two kids moved in, suddenly the rules changed. Suddenly I had a curious 7-year-old boy and a precocious 10-year-old girl in the house, all the time. Including when I'm not there."

Sounds like you found a good solution, but I am curious about one thing. Did you discuss at all your firearms situation with your gf before she moved in? Having experience with a VERY similar situation I am curious if she knew that you had loaded firearms and what her reaction(s) was/were. Having curious and precocious children suddenly appear and live in your house without planning and discussing how to handle the issue of access to firearms and how to train the children to not touch is an important issue.

Please don't get me wrong, I think your solution has a lot of merit, especially for long-term storage and security. I am just curious if you looked at and addressed the other considerations
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Old September 10, 2002, 11:33 AM   #12
BrokenPaw
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Quote:
Sounds like you found a good solution, but I am curious about one thing. Did you discuss at all your firearms situation with your gf before she moved in?
She and I discussed firearms very early on in our relationship. And long before I ever met her kids.

She initially was a fence-sitter about guns in general. She didn't know anything about guns, but she also felt that not knowing about them wasn't an excuse for her to decide they were "bad", so she chose not to have an opinion about them at all. After we met and started dating, she found out that I carried pretty much all the time, and she asked why. We talked at length about the philosophy of self defense, and she has gone from being a fence-sitter to being a strong advocate for gun rights, self defense, and gun ownership. She has asked me to teach her kids about guns (which would have had to happen before they moved in, in any event; at the very least I would have insisted on teaching them and drilling them on the Four Rules and so forth). She wants them to learn to shoot, and how to safely handle firearms when they're old enough.

The reason for the concealed vault is less because her kids will be at the house, and more because her kids will likely be having friends over. As I said in a post above, I can train her kids, but I can't count on their friends' parents to have properly trained their own kids.

So mostly I wanted a place to put my guns and gun stuff, so that the neighbours and their kids need never know that I'm a shooter.

Additionally, my gf's ex-husband is familiar with guns (having been in the military for some time), so he's not concerned at the fact of my having guns where his kids are living, but she and I both felt that we should show him that I'm being responsible about his kids' safety, since they're living in my home.

-BP
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Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the whisperings of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.
- Ardaynes #38
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Old September 10, 2002, 11:52 AM   #13
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Broken Paw,

I live in Manassas and will be finishing my basement soon and was contemplating on just such a set up. Mind if I take a look see one day? I'm also a Software Engineer during the day. I was thinking about starting my own company to get out of this crazy market. Anyway, let me know. You can email me at [email protected].

Raul
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Old September 11, 2002, 06:07 PM   #14
BrokenPaw
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Ok, I have some pics of the vault. Please forgive my webserver; it's only living on a 144k DSL connection.

Two views of the vault door, here and here .

With the door open .

And a one-megabyte mov file of the vault opening .

Enjoy!

-BP
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Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the whisperings of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.
- Ardaynes #38
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Old September 11, 2002, 07:28 PM   #15
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Very nicely done BrokenPaw. That is one sweet wall safe.

BTW, That was really responsible of you to not only insist on teaching the kids but to talk to the ex about it all first. I wish my ex had been as thoughtful of my feelings for my child's welfare.
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Old September 11, 2002, 07:38 PM   #16
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MAYBE WE need to get a manassas shoot going
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Old September 11, 2002, 08:37 PM   #17
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BrokenPaw....

Great video! It was worth waiting for the download.

I was glad to hear that you took the very responsible route of educating the gf and children. That is the type of action we need to continue to expand the number of firearms-educated and responsible shooters in the country.

Ya done good.
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Old September 11, 2002, 10:02 PM   #18
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It slides out. How neat. Good job.
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Old September 11, 2002, 11:30 PM   #19
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Very cool.

Do you keep your home defense gun there at night, or move it into the bedroom? The only reason I ask is because of the lights in the compartment. During a late-night break-in, they could give away the position of you and your guns. A separate switch for the lights might be a better idea.
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Old September 11, 2002, 11:36 PM   #20
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That was WAY cool.

You oughta put together a list of items needed for people to build this on their own. That is the best thing I've seen for a while.

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Old September 12, 2002, 09:54 AM   #21
BrokenPaw
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Quote:
Very nicely done BrokenPaw. That is one sweet wall safe.
Thanks, Libertarian...
Quote:
Do you keep your home defense gun there at night, or move it into the bedroom? The only reason I ask is because of the lights in the compartment. During a late-night break-in, they could give away the position of you and your guns. A separate switch for the lights might be a better idea.
David, I keep my primary home-defense gun (handgun) with me in the bedroom. I figure that if there's a situation going down that requires me to have access to my long guns, either I will have time to get from the bedroom to the vault (about 15 feet), or it's pretty much already a hopeless situation, and not having an AR-15 ready to hand won't be the deciding factor. We live on 4 acres, out in the woods, so the rifle and shotgun would mostly be used for something outside the house (rabid animal, something like that); once something gets inside, the house is small enough and configured such that I don't need to do an extensive house-clearing, so I can just hole up with the family and defend the master bedroom until cops show up. Also I don't really want to have to fire the AR inside; it's awfully loud.

As for the lights, yeah, you're right, and I plan to put them on a separate switch. The RF remote can control two devices so I plan on leaving the lights to default on when the door opens, but be able to shut them off prior to opening the door, if (for whatever reason) I need to.

I know light is more directional than sound, but the door isn't silent, in any event. It sounds an awful lot like two filing-cabinet drawers being opened simultaneously, since it's built on two sets of ball-bearing file-cabinet-drawer rails. The door weighs about 30 pounds by itself, plus the weight of the guns, so there's a bit of load on the rails. When this thing opens, any bad guys in the house will know about it. I suppose I could just hold the door shut, cut the lights, release the lock, and slowly let the door open enough to grab what I need. That'd be quieter. Also I could then re-seal the vault so the BGs don't know where I got that Evil Black Rifle from.

Madhatter, I'd be happy to participate in a Manassas shoot. I'm pretty busy right now, with the sudden influx of kids, and with being on-cast at the Virginia Renaissance Faire, and with doing general home remodeling. But I imagine I could take a night to go expend some cordite.

Spark, I intend to put together a website showing how to build one of these, including basic ideas of what materials to use, and ballpark costs. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell what exactly people will need. That's why I'm thinking of offering custom-design and installation for people in my local area. I've done it once, now, and I made several mistakes during the process, and had to correct them (with considerable swearing and occasional bleeding, as a bonus), so now I know how to design and build one from start to finish without screwing it up too much.

-BP
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