5000 rifles turned in in Maryland?

dZ · October 17, 2002, 12:47 PM

this tale has been confirmed by several MD RKBA sources:

Up date 10-16-2002
Have you been visited by the BATF yet? This is very
important for as wide a distribution as possible.

The Story;
Tuesday morning while finishing my coffee and listing to the news I receive a
call from someone claiming to be a BATF agent who would like to "TALK"
to me. Who then starts asking me about weapons I may own. When I told
him I had no idea who he was and was not about to engage in a
conversation about such things over the phone, he gets abusive and
treating, we end the conversation there. There minutes later I get a
call from a gun shop owner I know telling me to please talk to the nice
BATF man. So I call him back for more info. (I will not mention Agents
names here since I am now talking to my Attorney). But after a long run
around I finally got a local PG Detective to confirm who I was talking
to and I called his district and confirmed who he was. So I call the
BATF agent back and asked him AM I A TARGET OF THIS OR ANYOTHER
INVESTIGATION, he says I haven't met you yet. I tell him after I talk to
my Attorney and get his views I will talk to you if he says ok, more
abuse, they are going to come and get me. Why me well it seems one of
those form 4477's that's out there has my name on it and They BATF just
wants to "TALK" and by the way WE WANT TO SEE YOUR RIFLE AND BORROW IT FOR A WHILE. I have talked to two Attorneys and a good friend at NRA, IF
YOU GIVE TOUR RIFLE TO STATE OR BATF YOU ARE NOT Likely TO SEE IT AGAIN.

I have been told by my Attorney who spoke to the BATF Agent Trying to
TALK to me that he has no idea when I would get my rifle back if I
Voluntarily gives it to the state or BATF for Testing.

HEADS UP DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU WISH TO KISS YOUR INVESTMENT IN YOUR RIFLE OR RIFLES GOOD BYE and try collecting for KKK if she wins the
coming election. JUST SAY NO; But you had better talk to an Attorney
First.

OF the two Attorneys I talked to today, the second one told me his phone
was ringing off the hook with the same story and that he had heard that
the state had already voluntarily received over 5000 rifles at this
time. Voluntarily means they show up at your house and you let them in
and show them your rifle and they keep it, and threaten or bully you
into saying ok I volunteer. I am not a lawyer that's why I called one,
but of the people I talked to today the consensus is a voluntary hand
over to the state in no way obligated the state to compensate you for
the full value of your firearm or as the saying goes so sue me, if you
want you weapon or compensation and if you do get your weapon back in
what kind of shape will it be in. A $1000.00 plus in value rifle can
disappear or turn to junk in the states hands before you get it back,
that's if you get it back. This is back door confiscation using this
murderous rampage as the excuse.

This is happening below the radar the word needs to get out now and
fast!!! Please spread this information as far as you can, for you too
may get a knock on your door.

Libertarian · October 17, 2002, 12:53 PM

dZ, if this came from a new member or someone with less credibility than you, I'd be really doubtful. However, since I am inclinded to believe you, all I can say is incredible!

Has anyone called the NRA yet? Or GOA? Or (and this is a reach) AG Ashcroft? This has got to be illegal.

Thumper · October 17, 2002, 12:55 PM

Certainly seems to fall in line with Chaim's story.

Anybody else have anything on this?

dZ · October 17, 2002, 01:06 PM

i have a confirmation from an NRA employee:

Quote:

BATF have stated (but not publicly and not in
print) that they have seized over 5,000 guns in Montgomery county under
this operation, all "voluntarily". I have had someone checking the
local court house and they can not find a single warrant issued on this.
let me add it is a bitch to check on these things so I can't be 100% on
the warrants.

i had the original message yesterday and decided it was BS
but the posted confirmation is from a trusted source

MikeK · October 17, 2002, 01:07 PM

If you don't want to read all the way through chaim's post - The short answer is:

1. Be polite
2. Don't answer any questions until you consult an attorney.

The above advice came from a well respected national 2A attorney.

Additional advice from another attorney is that they have no right to enter your home or take any weapon unless they have a warrant.

However, if you feel the need for one in MD try Anthony Keder 301/927-6655.

ajaxinacan · October 17, 2002, 01:29 PM

Let me get this straight:

4473's, which were not supposed to be used as a registration list, are now being used as such.

As for registration leading to confiscation, I guess this proves it alright.

I really hope those folks get their rifles back, but I sincerely doubt it.

Oleg Volk · October 17, 2002, 01:49 PM

This is getting picked up by several RKBA mailing lists. True or not, I can't tell. But before we dismiss this out of hand, I recall that few people believed in the existence of Treblinka or Auschwitz...till they ended up behind the wire. If this is true, non-cooperation would be a good start.

ctdonath · October 17, 2002, 01:59 PM

If handled properly, this could end NICS and the Yellow Form, as such abuse constitutes a violation of the no-registration federal law, RKBA, violation of rights under color of law, etc. First step is filing a FOIA request for those cases we know, then for those we don't.

TFL lawyers, get busy! What can the rest of us do?

JBP · October 17, 2002, 01:59 PM

I received my club's newsletter yesterday with a notice that a number of the law enforcement agencies on the sniper task force are calling gun clubs in Maryland and asking for their rosters. As far as I know no club has given any information to them.

MDC Champaign · October 17, 2002, 01:59 PM

I have a very difficult time believing this. Sounds like another urban legend to me…

Waterdog · October 17, 2002, 02:07 PM

I have refrained from suggesting that these shootings, may be connected to an agenda setforth by a some organization that seeks to completely usurp our B of R, and US Constitution.

But, as each day passes, this seems to be the case.

I have been ostracized by many in these forums for suggesting that such a thing could be possible.

As of lately, I see that a lot of people are trying on their tinfoil hats

IMO

Waterdog

moa · October 17, 2002, 03:03 PM

I already talked to an NRA recommended attorney about this yesterday. Apparently, confiscation is happening. The attorney's office is in Montgomery County MD.

The attorney said he had 38 telephone messages in one day from people being visited by the ATF, Montgomery County Police (MCP) and other law enforcement organizations asking to take their firearms for purposes of test firing.

He says that MCP is telling people right up front they will not be getting their firearm back. And, if the firearm is legally owned then the attorney says the confiscation is totally illegal.

**tyme** · October 17, 2002, 03:11 PM

Several recent articles say there have been a string of arrests and confiscations of illegal rifles. This is really, really bad. But what do I care? I don't live near D.C.

I think the water's getting warmer, but I'm not sure.

dZ · October 17, 2002, 03:17 PM

i just was emailed this:

Friends;

I have had e-mail from three people I know in the area with similar
stories. I called one of them and confirmed the details. In his
case he called a lawyer and the lawyer called the LEO. No details
past that except for the impression that the calls to citizens were
being initiated after the ATF (or others) visited gun shops and
copied information from ATF #4477 Forms. A visit to a store confirms
this has happened.

My cases are confined to the Montgomery County area. I have no
evidence from other areas, but...

PLEASE. If you have bonified accounts of such incidents and the
individual involved is willing to write up the account, I would be
most interested in getting it ASAP. My reason is to document what is
being done and to what extent, in general terms. This will be used
(without particulars if the person so chooses) to educate others and
to aid into investigations regarding the legality and
constitutionally of the actions.

Your help will be appreciated.

Thanks.

Bob Culver, MCSM
Montgomery (County Maryland) Citizens for a Safer Maryland
Personal Protection... Personal Responsibility

MikeK · October 17, 2002, 03:33 PM

Would bringing this to the media's attention be a good thing? Unfortunately in MD there are quite a few who would agree with the ATF tactics.

org1 · October 17, 2002, 03:37 PM

btt

Kirk Keller · October 17, 2002, 03:40 PM

One can only ask, "Where do we go from here?'. I'm curious just how quickly this is going to be picked up by the media and what kind of spin it comes with. "Voluntary" with be the cry of the day, but we can all guess the type of coersion that brought those "voluntary" relinquishments.

Don Gwinn · October 17, 2002, 03:47 PM

MDC Champaign, I would normally be with you in your skepticism. However, as someone pointed out above, Doc Zox has been part of TFL for a long time and has never been known to mislead us. He could be mistaken. . . . but we have a very similar story from another longtime, reliable member, Chaim.

It's enough to worry me.

Inner Dark · October 17, 2002, 03:51 PM

If we can confirm or prove widespread confiscation is happening and produce particulars, then certainly as many media as possible should be notified. At the very least we should be pressing for assurances the guns will be returned by a certain date.

(FYI, this happened in NYC to .44 Charter Arms Bulldog revolver owners during the Son of Sam days. There weren't many of them so not many media picked up on it, but I knew one, so I know about it.)

I think varmint class weapons and ammo should be stored in a separate cabinet in a separate room while this is going on. Total refusal to discuss and talk to my attorney should be the order of the day for any questions about non .22 weapons.

I also think talking to an attorney about this now, BEFORE the knock on the door or the ringing of the phone is a good idea. In VA I would suggest Stephen Halbrook in Falls Church.

spacemanspiff · October 17, 2002, 03:52 PM

what? no cries of 'molon labe'? noones screaming for a revolution yet?

Rovert · October 17, 2002, 04:23 PM

Since the Wall Street Journal was one of the only major media outlets to report on this situation with a level head, do any of you feel that getting them involved might help?

This scares the livin' crap out of me. I'm loading up NOW!!!

Keith_Yorktown · October 17, 2002, 04:25 PM

dz - If I were you, I'd have your organization put out a press release ASAP, detailing what you've outlined here.

Send it to the more conservative media sources (as opossed to the liberal outlets.)

Including:

http://www.cnsnews.com/corporate/staff.asp

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/contactwnd.asp

WBFF-TV/FOX 45 Baltimore, MD
2000 West 41st St.
Baltimore, MD 21211
(V)410-467-4545
(F)410-467-5090

I'ld also start collecting names of people effected by this and start a class action suit. This would certainly seem to be a violation of civil rights to me.

moa · October 17, 2002, 04:40 PM

Just remember these contacts by ATF, etc., are in connection with mass murder investigation. They are asking questions of the owners too, such as their wereabouts on given days and time. This should be expected.

I suggest getting an attorney right away if contacted by ATF, etc.

ctdonath · October 17, 2002, 05:13 PM

This may be in connection with an investigation, but all it does is prove negatives where no positives were suspected. ANYONE who complies with this "request" is ipso facto not who they're looking for...and anyone who does not comply is not any more a viable suspect for refusing.

This is absurd, illegal, obfuscatory, wasteful, pointless, etc. The only possibly good thing is that it may create an RKBA lawsuit which SCOTUS can't ignore.

Remember: this is happening "under color of law", something which the Constitution VERY CLEARLY prohibits. When a stern man with a federal police badge and a gun "asks" you to hand over your gun for defacto registration & confiscation, the implication is "give up your rights or give up your life". Flatly unConstitutional.

Molon Labe.

KSFreeman · October 17, 2002, 05:19 PM

ajax, no, ATF has been computerizing 4473s in their West "By God" Virginny facility for almost a decade.

October 17, 2002, 12:47 PM	#1
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	5000 rifles turned-in, in Maryland? this tale has been confirmed by several MD RKBA sources: Up date 10-16-2002 Have you been visited by the BATF yet? This is very important for as wide a distribution as possible. The Story; Tuesday morning while finishing my coffee and listing to the news I receive a call from someone claiming to be a BATF agent who would like to "TALK" to me. Who then starts asking me about weapons I may own. When I told him I had no idea who he was and was not about to engage in a conversation about such things over the phone, he gets abusive and treating, we end the conversation there. There minutes later I get a call from a gun shop owner I know telling me to please talk to the nice BATF man. So I call him back for more info. (I will not mention Agents names here since I am now talking to my Attorney). But after a long run around I finally got a local PG Detective to confirm who I was talking to and I called his district and confirmed who he was. So I call the BATF agent back and asked him AM I A TARGET OF THIS OR ANYOTHER INVESTIGATION, he says I haven't met you yet. I tell him after I talk to my Attorney and get his views I will talk to you if he says ok, more abuse, they are going to come and get me. Why me well it seems one of those form 4477's that's out there has my name on it and They BATF just wants to "TALK" and by the way WE WANT TO SEE YOUR RIFLE AND BORROW IT FOR A WHILE. I have talked to two Attorneys and a good friend at NRA, IF YOU GIVE TOUR RIFLE TO STATE OR BATF YOU ARE NOT Likely TO SEE IT AGAIN. I have been told by my Attorney who spoke to the BATF Agent Trying to TALK to me that he has no idea when I would get my rifle back if I Voluntarily gives it to the state or BATF for Testing. HEADS UP DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU WISH TO KISS YOUR INVESTMENT IN YOUR RIFLE OR RIFLES GOOD BYE and try collecting for KKK if she wins the coming election. JUST SAY NO; But you had better talk to an Attorney First. OF the two Attorneys I talked to today, the second one told me his phone was ringing off the hook with the same story and that he had heard that the state had already voluntarily received over 5000 rifles at this time. Voluntarily means they show up at your house and you let them in and show them your rifle and they keep it, and threaten or bully you into saying ok I volunteer. I am not a lawyer that's why I called one, but of the people I talked to today the consensus is a voluntary hand over to the state in no way obligated the state to compensate you for the full value of your firearm or as the saying goes so sue me, if you want you weapon or compensation and if you do get your weapon back in what kind of shape will it be in. A $1000.00 plus in value rifle can disappear or turn to junk in the states hands before you get it back, that's if you get it back. This is back door confiscation using this murderous rampage as the excuse. This is happening below the radar the word needs to get out now and fast!!! Please spread this information as far as you can, for you too may get a knock on your door. __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters Last edited by dZ; October 17, 2002 at 01:17 PM.

October 17, 2002, 12:53 PM	#2
Libertarian Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 1999 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 2,117	dZ, if this came from a new member or someone with less credibility than you, I'd be really doubtful. However, since I am inclinded to believe you, all I can say is incredible! Has anyone called the NRA yet? Or GOA? Or (and this is a reach) AG Ashcroft? This has got to be illegal. __________________ "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom." JFK My other favorite forum is The Armed Citizen My PGP key is 0x780B7C0A

October 17, 2002, 12:55 PM	#3
Thumper Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 1,507	Certainly seems to fall in line with Chaim's story. Anybody else have anything on this? __________________ Ronnie- Proud Veteran, Neocon, Warmongering, Baby-Pincher

October 17, 2002, 01:07 PM	#5
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 566	If you don't want to read all the way through chaim's post - The short answer is: 1. Be polite 2. Don't answer any questions until you consult an attorney. The above advice came from a well respected national 2A attorney. Additional advice from another attorney is that they have no right to enter your home or take any weapon unless they have a warrant. However, if you feel the need for one in MD try Anthony Keder 301/927-6655. Last edited by MikeK; October 17, 2002 at 01:40 PM.

October 17, 2002, 01:49 PM	#7
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	This is getting picked up by several RKBA mailing lists. True or not, I can't tell. But before we dismiss this out of hand, I recall that few people believed in the existence of Treblinka or Auschwitz...till they ended up behind the wire. If this is true, non-cooperation would be a good start. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

October 17, 2002, 01:29 PM	#6
ajaxinacan Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2000 Location: New Mexico Posts: 436	Let me get this straight: 4473's, which were not supposed to be used as a registration list, are now being used as such. As for registration leading to confiscation, I guess this proves it alright. I really hope those folks get their rifles back, but I sincerely doubt it.

October 17, 2002, 01:59 PM	#8
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	If handled properly, this could end NICS and the Yellow Form, as such abuse constitutes a violation of the no-registration federal law, RKBA, violation of rights under color of law, etc. First step is filing a FOIA request for those cases we know, then for those we don't. TFL lawyers, get busy! What can the rest of us do?

October 17, 2002, 01:59 PM	#9
JBP Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 1998 Location: Maryland Posts: 471	I received my club's newsletter yesterday with a notice that a number of the law enforcement agencies on the sniper task force are calling gun clubs in Maryland and asking for their rosters. As far as I know no club has given any information to them.

October 17, 2002, 01:59 PM	#10
MDC Champaign Member Join Date: June 29, 2002 Location: Saint Paris, Ohio Posts: 21	I have a very difficult time believing this. Sounds like another urban legend to me…

October 17, 2002, 02:07 PM	#11
Waterdog Junior member Join Date: January 6, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,236	I have refrained from suggesting that these shootings, may be connected to an agenda setforth by a some organization that seeks to completely usurp our B of R, and US Constitution. But, as each day passes, this seems to be the case. I have been ostracized by many in these forums for suggesting that such a thing could be possible. As of lately, I see that a lot of people are trying on their tinfoil hats IMO Waterdog

October 17, 2002, 03:03 PM	#12
moa Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2000 Posts: 667	I already talked to an NRA recommended attorney about this yesterday. Apparently, confiscation is happening. The attorney's office is in Montgomery County MD. The attorney said he had 38 telephone messages in one day from people being visited by the ATF, Montgomery County Police (MCP) and other law enforcement organizations asking to take their firearms for purposes of test firing. He says that MCP is telling people right up front they will not be getting their firearm back. And, if the firearm is legally owned then the attorney says the confiscation is totally illegal.

October 17, 2002, 03:11 PM	#13
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 3,355	Several recent articles say there have been a string of arrests and confiscations of illegal rifles. This is really, really bad. But what do I care? I don't live near D.C. I think the water's getting warmer, but I'm not sure. __________________ “The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg)

October 17, 2002, 03:17 PM	#14
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	i just was emailed this: Friends; I have had e-mail from three people I know in the area with similar stories. I called one of them and confirmed the details. In his case he called a lawyer and the lawyer called the LEO. No details past that except for the impression that the calls to citizens were being initiated after the ATF (or others) visited gun shops and copied information from ATF #4477 Forms. A visit to a store confirms this has happened. My cases are confined to the Montgomery County area. I have no evidence from other areas, but... PLEASE. If you have bonified accounts of such incidents and the individual involved is willing to write up the account, I would be most interested in getting it ASAP. My reason is to document what is being done and to what extent, in general terms. This will be used (without particulars if the person so chooses) to educate others and to aid into investigations regarding the legality and constitutionally of the actions. Your help will be appreciated. Thanks. Bob Culver, MCSM Montgomery (County Maryland) Citizens for a Safer Maryland Personal Protection... Personal Responsibility __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

October 17, 2002, 03:33 PM	#15
MikeK Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2000 Location: MD Posts: 566	Would bringing this to the media's attention be a good thing? Unfortunately in MD there are quite a few who would agree with the ATF tactics.

October 17, 2002, 03:37 PM	#16
org1 Member Join Date: March 23, 2002 Posts: 54	btt

October 17, 2002, 03:40 PM	#17
Kirk Keller Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2001 Location: NC Posts: 808	One can only ask, "Where do we go from here?'. I'm curious just how quickly this is going to be picked up by the media and what kind of spin it comes with. "Voluntary" with be the cry of the day, but we can all guess the type of coersion that brought those "voluntary" relinquishments. __________________ Proud TFL Alumnus

October 17, 2002, 03:47 PM	#18
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	MDC Champaign, I would normally be with you in your skepticism. However, as someone pointed out above, Doc Zox has been part of TFL for a long time and has never been known to mislead us. He could be mistaken. . . . but we have a very similar story from another longtime, reliable member, Chaim. It's enough to worry me. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

October 17, 2002, 03:51 PM	#19
Inner Dark Member Join Date: October 17, 2002 Location: VA Posts: 28	media If we can confirm or prove widespread confiscation is happening and produce particulars, then certainly as many media as possible should be notified. At the very least we should be pressing for assurances the guns will be returned by a certain date. (FYI, this happened in NYC to .44 Charter Arms Bulldog revolver owners during the Son of Sam days. There weren't many of them so not many media picked up on it, but I knew one, so I know about it.) I think varmint class weapons and ammo should be stored in a separate cabinet in a separate room while this is going on. Total refusal to discuss and talk to my attorney should be the order of the day for any questions about non .22 weapons. I also think talking to an attorney about this now, BEFORE the knock on the door or the ringing of the phone is a good idea. In VA I would suggest Stephen Halbrook in Falls Church.

October 17, 2002, 03:52 PM	#20
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	what? no cries of 'molon labe'? noones screaming for a revolution yet? __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

October 17, 2002, 04:23 PM	#21
Rovert Senior Member Join Date: October 6, 2001 Posts: 824	Since the Wall Street Journal was one of the only major media outlets to report on this situation with a level head, do any of you feel that getting them involved might help? This scares the livin' crap out of me. I'm loading up NOW!!! __________________ "Following the path of least resistance is what makes rivers, and men, crooked." Last edited by Rovert; October 19, 2002 at 09:19 AM.

October 17, 2002, 04:25 PM	#22
Keith_Yorktown Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2002 Location: Greenfield, IN Posts: 194	dz - If I were you, I'd have your organization put out a press release ASAP, detailing what you've outlined here. Send it to the more conservative media sources (as opossed to the liberal outlets.) Including: http://www.cnsnews.com/corporate/staff.asp http://www.worldnetdaily.com/contactwnd.asp WBFF-TV/FOX 45 Baltimore, MD 2000 West 41st St. Baltimore, MD 21211 (V)410-467-4545 (F)410-467-5090 I'ld also start collecting names of people effected by this and start a class action suit. This would certainly seem to be a violation of civil rights to me.

October 17, 2002, 04:40 PM	#23
moa Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2000 Posts: 667	Just remember these contacts by ATF, etc., are in connection with mass murder investigation. They are asking questions of the owners too, such as their wereabouts on given days and time. This should be expected. I suggest getting an attorney right away if contacted by ATF, etc.

October 17, 2002, 05:13 PM	#24
ctdonath Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 1999 Posts: 1,904	This may be in connection with an investigation, but all it does is prove negatives where no positives were suspected. ANYONE who complies with this "request" is ipso facto not who they're looking for...and anyone who does not comply is not any more a viable suspect for refusing. This is absurd, illegal, obfuscatory, wasteful, pointless, etc. The only possibly good thing is that it may create an RKBA lawsuit which SCOTUS can't ignore. Remember: this is happening "under color of law", something which the Constitution VERY CLEARLY prohibits. When a stern man with a federal police badge and a gun "asks" you to hand over your gun for defacto registration & confiscation, the implication is "give up your rights or give up your life". Flatly unConstitutional. Molon Labe.

October 17, 2002, 05:19 PM	#25
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	ajax, no, ATF has been computerizing 4473s in their West "By God" Virginny facility for almost a decade. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).