Handguns and bear defense

[Randy Garrett]

When deciding what to carry for defense against bears one must consider more than just what sidearm one feels comfortable with, one must make sure that the combo of handgun and ammo is adequate for the task. It matters not whether the gun is a pleasure to carry or whether the gun and ammo permits the shooter to deliver rapid fire, the over-riding criteria is whether the shooter is delivering a blow adequate to stop a bruin hell-bent on human annihilation. A big bear can soak up a lot of 210-gr or 240-gr jacketed expanding bullets and only grow more angry with each shot. Also, invariably, bears close on their prey with alarming speed which tends to make the effectiveness of each shot of critical importance, as it is unusual for a shooter to have time for a plurality of shots. It is quite instructive to do impact testing into a variety of water soaked materials in order to establish the likely penetration potential of a given load. In our testing, we have continually found that there simply are no expanding bullets fired from any revolver calibers capable of producing more than about 12-inch of penetration in wet-newspapers, and most produce less, in fact, most produce far less. By contrast, a proper heavy hard-cast bullet from the various large caliber revolvers can produce up to about 3-feet of penetration in the same medium. This is the sort of penetration required for the shooter to have a reasonable chance of surviving such a scirmish. Indeed, some of the most modern bullet designs fail miserably when deep penetration is required. A good example of this is the PMC Starfire as loaded for the 44 Magnum. Characteristically it will produce penetration levels only comparable to the .22 Long Rifle!!! By contrast, where the 44 Magnum is concerned one can expect penetration to the hips on a frontally shot grizzly with proper heavyweight cast-bullets such as our HAMMERHEADs. Big bears are enormously tough and require hits capable of busting big bones without deflection and still deliver several feet of penetration. It would be nice if we could just carry our favorite handgun and load and be safe in the woods. Unfortunately, that is the kind of mentality that gets people killed by enraged bruins. If you value your life, and we all do, make sure you carry a gun and a load adequate for stopping a charging grizzly with a single round, anything else is an indulgence that will likely cost you your life.

Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[Ankeny]

Hmmm...

"If you value your life, and we all do, make sure you carry a gun and a load adequate for stopping a charging grizzly with a single round, anything else is an indulgence that will likely cost you your life."

Looks like we need to eliminate almost all handguns, period. Perhaps a 12 gauge shotgun with rifled slugs would be the appropriate choice.

[pete80]

I wouldn't trust any handgun when going up against a pissed off grizzly. I would think the minimum caliber would be .44mag. Like Ankeny suggested, a 12 gauge loaded with rifled slug is system that I would put my money on.

[pete80]

I wouldn't trust any handgun when going up against a pissed off grizzly. I would think the minimum caliber would be .44mag. Like Ankeny suggested, a 12 gauge loaded with rifled slug is system that I would put my money on.

Oh yeah, expect to fire more than one round from your handgun when charged by a big grizzly.

[Dr.Rob]

"Unfortunately, that is the kind of mentality that gets people killed by enraged bruins." SORRY... FEEDING BEARS is what usually gets people KILLED by BEARS. Petting baby bears gets people KILLED. Trying to treat a bear like its TAME gets people killed.

You want to enrage a bruin?? Cook a pancake breakfast in his living room then tell him he's not invited. Bears don't like that very much.


IF i was gonna bear hunt with a handgun I'd take my 44 full of hard cast swc's Cause I don't own a savage striker on 308.. but i'd MUCH rather carry a rifle for bear Handgunning for dangerous game is an EXPERT's sport.. not an amatuers.

However if I'm NOT hunting bears, the idea of DRAWING your full house magnum gun in TIME in a "chance" encounter with a bear is nearly ludicrous.. do you train for that?? You'd HAVE to TRAIN to be effective. (step into traffic moving at 30mph, say at 50 yards away maximum draw your weapon and kill the driver with 1 shot and remember to get out of the way before it runs you over.. i'd say THAT's an equivalent training to run into a bear unexpectedly)

Pepper spray is far more effective in deterring a bear you've suprised...you don't have to be as accurate and the bear and you both get to walk away and you won't get fined for killing an animal out of season.

The BEST weapon you have against bears is your BIG BRAIN.. so use it and some common sense in bear country.

#1, is it bear country and what type?

#2 are these bears acclimated to people or not?? (acclimated bears are MORE LIKELY to bite you)

#3 when is it most likely you'll see a bear (time of day nearness of dump sites, available food sources, etc.)

#4 learn how to properly STORE YOUR FOOD in bear country.

#5 NEVER GO IN THE WOODS ALONE

#6 what is the fastest defense weapon you can employ against a bear that is easiest to use in a high stress situation??

#7 if you choose a gun as your defense be aware of the local laws reguarding its use.. is it LEGAL to carry where you are going? What is the penalty for shooting a bear out of season and WHEN its proper to shoot one. (blasting Yogi and Boo-Boo for gnoshing on your picnic basket is a no-no and will get you fined big time and could end up with you facing felony charges and thus LOSING your 2nd amendment rights de facto, where as shooting a bear that is trying to eat you or your kid (NOT your dog) you'll probably walk.

#8 wear a bear bell (this will likely preclude you from ever 'accidently" running into a bear.)

#9 Don't belive the hype. Talk to your local park ranger/game warden about black/grizzly bear behavior where YOU live. A Grizz in alaska might not act like a Blackie in WVa. You local expert will know far more than any of us here.

Off my soapbox and defending Yogi's RIGHT to be in the woods where HE lives...


Dr.Rob




[This message has been edited by Dr.Rob (edited December 01, 1999).]

[Randy Garrett]

Hey you shotgunners, before you decide that a properly loaded large caliber handgun isn't adequate for grizzly defense, perhaps you should ask the State of Wyoming's Grizzly Bear Team why they sold their 375 H&Hs and bought 44 Magnums for use with our ammo for dispatching angry bears, or the 31 customers of our's who have sucessfully stopped bear charges with our 44 Magnum ammo during our 10-years of business, or the National Marine Fisheries Service why they consider the shotgun to be one of the worst choices possible for coastal grizzly defense, and why they chose the 45-70 with our ammo for their purposes. Come on guys, shotguns are for birds, or is it bird brains?

Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[Robert the41MagFan]

Randy, most of these guys have absolutely no clue about what you are talking about. They think that the woods is like them shows, Remington Country. Have no idea what its like to go into the woods alone, miles from anyone and you're doing it at 4:00 am. The forest that you are entering has not been walked by another person in years and animals have no basic fear of men. You are in the woods (REAL WOODS), five miles from the nearest road and on your own. No landmarks, no friends and no help. Now, add the big fury critter with claws and teeth. You didn't see him and the bear did not see you, you are thirty yards apart.

I remember the first time that happened, in Washington state, just south of Mt St Helen.

Robert

[motorep]

An acquaintance of mine teaches the bear school for the USGS. They don't allow handguns, period, including the .454 Casull. They teach their people, from experience, to carry slug-loaded 12 ga. shotguns. From what I've seen of their training, the "stepping into traffic" analogy is pretty spot on.

[cornered rat]

Out of curiosity, how would 150-170 gr ball at 2500-2800fps fare in stopping bears? I was once invited to back up an archer during rifle season and all I had was a .303 bolt action.

[antenna]

I'd put my money and my life on a S&W .44 or even better a Taurus or Freedom Arms .454 Casull. Shotguns with slugs are wonderful for bear stoppers and do work, but if you are in heavy brush or worse, treed (yes, treed), then wielding a revolver is much easier and preferable than even the shortest of shotguns. Not much on this planet can stand up to a .454 and that includes the bear species. And besides, if you are hunting, do you really want to carry an extra 6 or 7 lbs of shotgun, plus its ammunition. A revolver sits nice against your thigh or waist or even in your jacket in a shoulder holster. Ciao...

[Oscar]

Gentlemen,

The smart money here (at least among the mere mortals such as myself who would be suffering coronary arrest in those conditions) is listening to our friend, Dr. Rob, rather than going out and purchasing Mr. Garrett's ammo. If you're unfortunate enough to be in the woods and have a large grizzly (or for that matter, a 250 pound black bear) charge you, your very best bet IMHO would be a short shotgun with 00 buck shot in it or the pepper spray. About 1% of us (me not included) would be able to shoot a 44 mag straight under those conditions for which (once again, as Dr. Rob articulates very well) very few if any of us ever trains.

I defer to the true professionals, perhaps including Mr. Garrett, regarding their ability to effectively deploy a .44 in those extreme circumstances. It wouldn't be my choice, though, not by a long shot. The only thing I would be "penetrating" with a .44 is a whole lot of air.

Oscar

[This message has been edited by Oscar (edited December 01, 1999).]

[tony stapleton]

the national park rangers in alaska who
observe tourists taking pics of bears
in salmon streams are equipped with
remington marine 12g shotguns.
you can have a mix of 00buck and rifled
slugs chambered. that's not a bad way
to go but i would add a s&w629 6.5inch
44mag holstered on my side with some
pepper spray and st.christopher's medal
too.

[4V50 Gary]

Handguns, even Ruger's SuperRedHawk in .454 Casull, are only back-up guns if your primary firearm (rifle/shotgun) fail or is disabled. Bears, especially the Big Brownie or the Grizzly have never been easy to stop and should never be underestimated. Personally, if my primary failed and I was down to the handgun, I'd save the last round for myself. Call me chickensh-t, but pain really hurts.

There's also a great article in this month's copy of Muzzle Blasts (official magazine of the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association) about mountain men, bears and maulings.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

[johnboy]

I personnaly think it takes a 105mm howitser to get the job done in this case! I hope if and when one of these things charges me, there is someone slower than me around.

[Oris]

Hey, guys, Randy just tells you what he thinks is effective against bear if you happen to have only 44 mag. revolver, you are out of hand grenades and you do not have time to reach the nearest atom bomb shelter. He is not telling you to get real brave (or crazy) and attack the bear with handgun. He is just recommending to use his hard cast slugs against bears in preference to MagSafes, Glasers and other funny ammo. I think it makes sense, technically speaking.

I also think that 12 ga. with 5 magnum loads
of slugs is better, but 44 mag. is better than nothing...

[Red Bull]

People in Alaska that I know seem to think that a .454 is pretty MINIMAL for a bear encounter, or even worse, moose. The ONLY reason they carry it is as a daily piece for around town because it is "small". For outings, the handgun is merely a backup to the rifle. For these people what you describe is not an adventure, it is a way of life. Their entire culture from birth deals with bears in the backyard. I tend to listen to them. They say that a 12 guage shotgun is the preferable gun to have.

Not only that, but hitting that moving target is much easier with a shoulder arm than a short barreled handgun.

It is easy to see who here really knows what they are talking about, and who is full of hot air.

[Ankeny]

Deleleted in the spirit of cooperation.

[This message has been edited by Ankeny (edited December 04, 1999).]

[Randy Garrett]

Ankeny: no need to take offense to my play on words, it wasn't intended as an insult. And yes, I would welcome your inquiry with the Wyoming Game Dept. In fact, the guy that handled their last purchase was a fellow by the name of D. Moody, and he can be reached at 307-332-7723 Extention 240. I don't make these claims up, anymore than does Jeff Cooper when he comments on the utility of our 44 Magnum ammo for use against big bears (have you read his commentaries recently), our any number of other industry notables. You can check our reviews page on our website to see what guys like Finn Aagaard say about how he would not hesitate to carry our 44 Magnum ammo for bear defense. You will find his comments on our website and the magazine and month in which they were published. These aren't opinions created by yours truly, these statements reflect the real life experiences of a great many people in the field. However, not everyone should attempt such things, anymore than everyone should attempt to drive a race car or jump out of an airplane. However, it can be done, and is done with considerable regularity, so ease up a bit. And again, don't take offense to a play on words, I don't take offense to others placing their "opinions" over the real life experiences of our customers and industry experts.
Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[oberkommando]

In a properly constructed gun, A 45 colt can do anything the 44 can do and do it with less pressure.
If all this talk revolves around a single shot how bout a 10" barreled TC Encore in say 416 Rigby, and a ruger No 1 by SSK in 577Nitro Mag as your long gun. Probably wont need back up with that No 1 as odds are its more reliable than any revolver. Have no fear that bear is going down.

You still gotta give the slug it due respect, anything weighting 600grains, moving at about 1500fps, and made of hard alloy will penetrate till the cows come home. If it will stop cape buff, the bear is no problem.

[Randy Garrett]

Oberkommando: good call. A properly loaded 45 Colt is a powerful and capable revolver caliber, no doubt about that. However, the importance of placing a single bullet or first shot on target doesn't quite justify carrying a single-shot pistol for defense. Even the best shooters might require a second shot, and if they do it no doubt will be required ASAP!!! If a guy is going to carry a rifle, it seems like a good choice would be a fast firing lever-gun such as a 45-70 with 530-grainers at about 1550-fps. We produce such a load, and the bullet has a huge .360-inch meplat(nearly a wadcutter). It will shoot through a 5-foot stack of wet-newspaper and most anything that walks. But of course your suggestion of a 416 or 577 would also turn an angry bear inside out. Obviously, there is always more than one way to accomplish a difficult task. Are you a 45 Colt shooter? I have been working with some 350-grainers with .380-inch meplats that will do 1250-fps from a 5.5-inch barreled Redhawk, and they are awesome! Best regards, Randy Garrett

[HarryB]

I am reminded of the advice I once heard a guide give someone who insisted on using a handgun for grizzly defense. He told the customer to take his .44 to a Smith and have him remove the front sight. When the customer asked why, he was told because it once hurt as much when the bear takes away your gun and shoves it up your arse.

[WESHOOT2]

Randy,

I've been doing some "testing", too. From a 5.5" Redhawk I've got 325g Swift A-Frames going 1300+fps.

This is the only other "bear bullet" I would consider.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"

[ShooterDave]

True story:

Guy I know went up to Alaska on a hiking trip a few years back and thought he would take along some bear
protection. Borrowed a friends .44 mag and took it to an outdoor store in Alaska to buy ammo. Fellow
behind the counter asked my friend if he needed to buy a gun for grizzlies (pointing to a rack of rifles behind
the counter).

My friend replied "nope, I already got one."

"What kind of gun you got?" asked the guy.

"I got a .44 mag," and then uttered something about it being the world's most powerful handgun.

"Hmmm..." considered the shop keeper who then wryly asked "did you file the front sight off?"

"No, why?" puzzled my friend.

"Awe, it's nothing, just doesn't hurt so much when that bear grabs the pistol from you and shoves it up your
a**"

[This message has been edited by ShooterDave (edited December 02, 1999).]

[Keith Rogan]

Some of you probably know that I got pretty badly mauled about a year ago. I've thought a lot about bears and guns since then, and talked to a number of other mauling victims, guides and bear biologists here in Alaska.

First, for the lighter side - newbies to Kodiak are always ask about the "best gun for bear defense" and are generally told to pack a .22 hand gun.
When they express disbelief, its explained that the .22 is to "kneecap" whoever they're with because a bear will always take the slowest runner.

As for handguns and bears - theres 200 pound black bears, 500 pound grizzlies and 1500 pound brownies. Whats good "medicine" for one, isn't necessarily a good choice for another.
I live on Kodiak and tend to think in terms of the really big bears and... I've been toting a Marlin 45/70 all summer on my fishing trips. I don't think any handgun is a good first line of defense for the brown bears. Given a choice to ONLY carry a handgun or pepper spray and I think I'd opt for the spray.
Given a choice of longarm, and I'll stick with my 45/70, though a shotgun with slugs/buck would also be a comforting choice.
With grizzlies and black bears I think a handgun might be just the ticket. It leaves your hands free, is portable and is most likely adequate for the job. I would carry a double action revolver. In my mauling and those of several other people I've talked to, things just happened too fast and the attack was too violent to consider a thumb-cocking revolver. You might get a double action into play, a single action, highly doubtful. While down on the ground, I swung my fist at the bears nose and got the big pad of muscle below my thumb swiped off for my trouble. Picture sticking a revolver in his face and asking him to wait while you cock it. It would be found 30 yards away in the brush with your hand still attached.
These things happen so fast that the victims, who often are toting a rifle, never get a shot off. That was certainly the case with me.
Mr. Garrett, your loads have a terrific reputation here in Alaska. When are you going to put out a .45 Colt and a .454 Cassull load?

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan



[This message has been edited by Keith Rogan (edited December 02, 1999).]

[01paw]

Well, 1st let me say that I live in black bear country, and see them all the time when in the bush. Sometimes pretty close. Just because you "bump into" a bear, doesnt mean he's going to charge you. Many times they take off like a shot, and many more times than we probably know, they hear/smell us coming, and are long gone by the time we get there. But bear are, at best, unpredictable, so a person in the bear's habitat should be prepared. Pepper spray can work, I guess. If you want to take your chances that the bear doesnt charge with the wind in your face. Carrying a shotgun is good advice, IMO, in griz country, you probably wouldnt need it against a black bear. I like short carbine rifles. Having said that, however, I have a unique problem. I dont have the use of most of my left arm, so shooting a rifle quickly under stress is difficult. Thats why I carry my 5"629 Classic every time I go hiking, and its my back-up to my T/C ENCORE 30-06 carbine when I hunt. I feed it 325gr hard cast bullets, which should break down all but the worst of black bear. I think with that weapon, heavy hard cast bullets traveling pretty darn quick is the way to go. Given my circumstance, thats the most power I can handle effectively under stress one handed. Also, I've come to the conclusion, that if surprised/charged by an angry bear, most likely he'll do some sort of damage to my sorry hide. I accept that. How much damage he does is up to me and my chosen methods for countering his attack. Since I expect him to be literally on top of me anyways, hitting the bruin on the run (although preferable)isnt as important to me as knowing where to shove the bbl of my smith to do the most damage. You guys might think I'm nuts, but my conclusions are based on living/being in the same woods with something thats bigger, fast, and stronger, that would probably think I tasted pretty good. Does all this keep me out of the woods? Nope. 99% of the time, if you stand tall, not run, and LOUDLY tell the bear to get the hell out of there, he complies. Now cougar, on the other hand..... FWIW, guys

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"To die as a warrior means to have crossed swords and either won or lost without any consideration for winning or loosing. There is just not enough time and generally not enough strength in the resolve of any man to do otherwise"-Miyamoto Musashi