What would you do if someone ELSE is fighting?

[Lavan]

I would like to hear what you would have done or would advise someone to do. Especially
if you are a LEO what you would LIKE to see happen. This happened just last night. I was
walking out of a grocery store with a basket of groceries. As I approached my car, two young
men jumped out of separate cars to fight with each other. One had a baseball bat. The other
did not. They were 40-50 feet from me. I am licensed CCW and had my gun. I got real
lucky. The combatants decided that shouting each others’ mothers’ sexual preferences
was all that was needed to make them feel better and leave.

I minded my own business and saw that they were just yelling with no closing the distance.
BUT.......what if they had? In one respect, my CCW training says that we are “justified”
to stop another from being injured. On the other hand, pulling a gun and yelling stop is not
“de-escalating” the situation. I ........THINK........I would have pulled the gun if the batter
had looked like he was going to bash the other guy. But then, after all was said and done,
that would probably have put me as the object of the bat guy. Then I suppose it WOULD
be self defense. Ticklish. Not a fun time.

What would you do? Especially if you are LEO or attorney. Thanks in advance for input.

[Jim V]

Lavan, I would not do anything under the conditions you discribed, just be a good witness. If the bat holder bashed the un-armed person, then I might consider drawing my pistol and holding him for the police. Personally, my pistol is for the protection of myself and mine, not the protection of others, I am not in the Police business anymore where I would be required to become involved after observing a felony. If the bat holder bashed the other person and then came charging at me with the bat in hand, yelling "I'm gonna get you too." well, let us say I will find out how well the 230 grain Golden Sabers work. fwiw

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"

[Karanas]

A CCW does not make you a deputy LEO.
The possible legal consequences of using deadly force for your own protection are dicey enough. Getting involved in someone else's argument is just asking for trouble.
Call 911 and be a good witness.

[ctdonath]

two young men jumped out of separate cars to fight with each other.

In NY, it is illegal to voluntarily engage in a fight. In your case, it was their problem, they got themselves into it, and they can deal with their own self-made problem and consequences thereof without others getting involved. Your responsibility is to the innocent; those "two young men" were not innocent and therefore not your responsibility.

[Lavan]

Karanas......I R E A L L Y like that
take on it. Not a Deputy. Good advice and
really what I was thinking at the time.

[LawDog]

Couple of points--In Texas, display of Deadly Force is not considered Deadly Force. For example, showing your weapon without firing it would not be considered Deadly Force.

Citizens are allowed to make arrests for all felonies and misdemeanor Breach of the Peace (usually described as Disorderly Conduct, PI and DWI). Fighting with another in a Public Place is located under the Disorderly Conduct Statute--therefore (in Texas) you would be justified in a Citizens Arrest. Furthermore, use (or threatened use) of the baseball bat would be Aggravated Assault--a felony--subject to Citizens Arrest.

You are also (again, in Texas) justified in using Deadly Force to protect a Third Party from the imminent commission of Deadly Force against that Third Party. Getting smacked with a baseball bat (in my opinion) would result in Death, or Serious Bodily Injury. Therefore, you would be justified in using Deadly Force or the threat of Deadly Force to prevent such Death or Serious Bodily Injury.

Do you have the duty to prevent this?

Well, legally -- no. You are not required to prevent the Aggravated Assault and/or Murder.

Morally? Well, can you stand around while someone gets murdered before your eyes? That is a question I cannot answer for you.

Hope that helps.

LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited February 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited February 08, 2000).]

[CMOS]

Gentlemen, you surprise me.

Tell your stories of non-involvement and "self-preservation" to the families of those killed in the Killeen, TX Luby's cafeteria.

Would you really be able to live with yourself if you did nothing while someone's mother, father, sister, or husband was injured or killed? Have you ever talked to one of the family members that survived the Luby's tragedy? I have. Don't want to ever do that again.

I'm not making any blanket statements but I'd like to offer this perspective for discussion. When do we take some responsibility for the safety of our fellow law-abiding citizens? Sure, the 2 gents in this thread deserved their own, but what if...?

CMOS

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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!

[muleshoe]

I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ here, but how are you going to "hold" someone for the police? If he doesn't agree with staying how are you going to convince him to do so, put one in his knee? If the guy is bashing the other repeatedly then I suppose one might put himself in harms way and take the bat away and at least protect the bashee. But I don't think you could detain the basher if he doesn't feel like being detained. A good description and plate # would probably be the best thing you could do.

I believe if you pull your weapon it should be in a situation where you or your family is at risk, and you should be prepared to use it. If your not prepared to do so then someone someday is just going to take it away from you.

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bullet placement is gun control

[nobody]

If it was mutual combat, I would stay out of it (maybe call police). If it involved an innocent, I would have intervened.

[Lavan]

As always, it looks to be a no-win situation as it seems all gun incidents turn out to be.

Back in the '60's, I was a good citizen and chased and stopped a purse snatcher and held him at gunpoint for the police.

The cops asked what I would have done if he had run. I told em I wudda let him scoot.

That time, I got an award plaque from the PD. Nowadays, who knows?

It was a HOT day and I told him to lie down on the pavement. He did. Then witnesses (including the purse owner) started leaving until I told them I was gonna let him go if anyone left.

Young=dumb
Older=still dumb but smart enough to wonder.
heh

[TOMBERGSTR]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lavan:
[B]I would like to hear what you would have done or would advise someone to do.

Most of the guys were right on the mark . McDonalds , Detroit several years ago . 2 guys were fixin' to get it on with knoves . The employees forced them out in the street where they picked it up again . One guy was hurt bad and went to the hosp . but soon died . His family sued McDonalds and won a ton of money . The arguement was that they should have stopped it . Had you tried to intervene you could have had a similar problem . Consider this . You pull and shout " STOP " . One guy drops his bat and the other guy brains him right there . The dead guys family wants your house and car because you interfered . At the very least you need an expensive lawyer and bad things could come out of it . The ONLY reason I would personally stay out of it is because the story indicates this was combat by 2 consenting idiots . The smart thing would be to keep moving AND if you were seen and questioned ...." You know it's funny . Of all the times I've left the house that was one of the few times I DID NOT have my weapon with me . I don't remember seeing it but if I did there would have been nothing I could have done " .
Before I get flamed let me state that the story indicated this was NOT an assault on unarmed innocent people . Rather by 2 guys that the world is probably better off without .Other alternatives ? YES . Wait until it's over and shoot the winner .

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TOM SASS MEMBER AMERICAN LEGION MEMBER

[dZ]

if you show your weapon, who is to say that another homey might not drop you from cover?

They might have been arguing over turf but you are an outsider. What if they both draw sidearms on you?

I would observe, but not strike until the tides change.

dZ

[Skyhawk]

Some good comments above, with Lawdog providing exact Texas law on the subject.

Personally, I would stay out of it all together unless threatened with grave bodily injury or death. Intervening in an assault, robbery or worse is risky business (and frankly none of mine). I would be likely to leave and left the pukes finish. CHL’s are not the equivalent of law enforcement officers.

If friends or family members are threatened that will change the situation somewhat.

If you plug somebody, right or wrong, expect to be arrested, jailed, have your gun seized and start paying an attorney a couple of grand, for starters, for his services. Do you really want to do that?


CMOS,

Certainly a Luby’s situation where an armed assailant is systematically shooting unarmed people is a different situation and would require a different response. I would probably use my weapon in that case.

Skyhawk

[TAZ]

Given the situation, I would retreat to safety, call 911 and be a good witness. I have absolutely no obligation to intervene in a fight that the 2 parties volunteered for. Both have the option to disengage and drive away. Neither sees fit to do so. This to me indicates some sort of turf fight and not some mugger/crack head bashing on some innocent. As such I have no desire to place myself in both physical and legal danger.

As for comaring this type of activity to Luby's or Columbine, the comparison is between apples and oranges. The people in Luby's or Columbine did not choose to step outside an fight with their assailants. They were trapped and had very few options to exercise. These two morons chose to get out of their cars and fight it out.

Could I live with myself if the batter spilts the loosers skull?? A question I hope to only have to answer in a phylosophical manner. The balance between what can be gained to what can be lost leans in favor of being a witness. If you act and kill the batter, you face the prospect of living with having killed someone, bankrupcy from a wrong full death suit, and or criminal charges. All this sacrafice for the prospect of having saved a person who makes poor choices or even possibly a gang member. In the ned the choice is simple in my mind.

[Oleg Volk]

There's a reason why cops shoot innocent people so much more often then the rst of us: they barge in in the middle of existing mayhem and can't tall who's who and what is really going on. You'd be in the same boat.

Change it to something obvious (i.e. little kid getting killed by a dog or an adult human) and the response would be quite different (very little chance of misunderstanding) -- draw and order to cease. Fire if necessary.

[Lavan]

Actually it was 2 white guys arguing over a girl.
Maybe I shud have had an extra bat. "Here, catch." Heh.

[tuc22]

maybe it's best to leave the area and ignore the fantasies of being a hero. Mutual combat being what it is, it's certainly not worthy of my precious time.

[frye]

From Tennessee law perspective......

You may use deadly force in any situation in which you reasonably fear death or serious bodily injury. There is no duty to retreat. However, if you instigated the altercation, or if it was mutual, and the situation escalated to the point where you had such fear, you must attempt to leave the situation or vocalize your intent to do so and fail before resorting to deadly force.

The defense statute for a third party is exactly the same. If you have a reasonable fear of someone else being subjected to death or serious bodily injury, you may resort to deadly force or the threat of deadly force.

This seems to make it just as clear cut as if you were defending yourself. However, notice the mutual combat or instigator clause in the provision. It is much easier to determine that YOU were not the instigator, or if so, you tried and failed to abandon the situation, than it is to tell if a third party is the true victim.

In the situation above, this is clearly a mutual combat situation. In Tennessee, the guy without the bat would have to attempt to leave or express his desire to do so, and the bat wielder would have to persist, in order for you to be justified in intervention.

This is much more difficult in third party situations. Concealed weapons are surprise self defense weapons to be used in extreme circumstances. You should be doubly as cautious when considering the use of that weapon on behalf of a third party.

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"Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death" - Patrick Henry

[ChuteTheMall]

I'm not a lawyer but I've seen them on TV.

Draw your handy disposable flash camera and light them up if you can do so from a safe location. A videocamera would be ideal if you could do so safely. You are only a witness gathering evidence. Perhaps you will cause them to flee. Problem solved. Or they might attack you, so be careful before taking pictures of these guys. I usually have a cheap flash camera in the car with my maglite and other goodies.

[Ed Brunner]

I was in a similar situation outside a convenience store. I was armed. I went inside and told the clerk to call 911. s luck would have it, the local PD was there in a heartbeat.

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Better days to be,

Ed

[bruels]

You run the risk of being perceived by one of the combatants as coming to the aid of the other rather than a good citizen trying to keep the peace. Or worse, both combatants become allies to take care of the busybody.

[jimpeel]

I keep seeing posts here that say "consenting idiots" and "mutual combat" among other things. This was, as evidenced by the lead post, not the case. The post clearly stated "One had a baseball bat. The other did not." What we had here was an assault and near battery with a deadly weapon with intent to inflict serious bodily injury or death.

So many here have stated "do nothing" as the high side of valor. You guys are wrong.

When you have a concealed carry permit it is issued so that you can defend yourself or others from serious criminal mischief. To state that you would stand there, watch this guy wreak mayhem on the other guy or kill him and do nothing is at best cowardice in its rankest form.

Clam up. Do nothing. Deny being armed. Deny you saw it. That's shameful.

What he did was correct for the situation as it existed and for how it ended. At the point the armed fellow took a swing at the unarmed fellow he would have had a moral incumbent to intercede. If this was to merely show the firearm in silhouette(sp) at his side pointed at the ground but obvious and ordering them to disperse, get in their cars and go home -- so be it.

I'm not a large man nor a brave man but one thing I am not is a coward; or a person who would allow a mother's son to be taken from her without lifting a hand to attempt to stop it.

Just what the Hell are all of you people so hot to trot about RKBA for, anyway? Your biggest bitch and moan is that "the cops are never there" and "they have no duty to protect any individual". Well, I guess the same goes for you. All for me, but not for thee? Right.

Flame away. You deserved every bit of what I just said.

[Art Eatman]

jimpeel: Emotionally, I agree with you.

The problem is that if "they both jump out" and then I get involved--no personal danger, to me or to my family--I can wind up fiscally unable to take care of my family.

I think that most guys do think of the real world we live in, and their own responsibility to their families.

A Luby's situation? Bang. Dog bites child? Bang. Man with weapon (stipulate NOT undercover cop) jumps any person without weapon? Probable Bang, after a few moments of assessment. Clearcut results, insofar as odds of later problems are concerned. (LEOs: Would an undercover guy attempt an arrest in a public area with no "normal words" at all? "Stop!" or "You're under arrest"! or some such?)

Remember, the guy with no bat jumped out of his car; can't he jump back in, at the sight of the bat?

And every situation is different, along with state laws and civil laws...

I think the well-being of one's family is always paramount.

Again, I don't at all disagree with your attitude...

Regards, Art

[fastforty]

Yup. Started off as mutual combat. Escalated to deadly force. If the unarmed guy had ran for it, and was cornered..... well, that's where I might start thinking of involvement. There is just too much unknown information/circumstance involved when you come into the middle of a situation like this to "call the shot". It often turns out that you saw it differently than it was, and wind up aiding the "real" BG, and suffering civil action from the "victim". Where does your gun & permit wind up??? NOT protecting yourself and your family. Most states DO NOT allow for private citizens to take "police" action. Legally, YOU are more apt to end up on the "hot seat" than either of the other guys. Times have changed. You must always CYOA first.

[Jim March]

For me, this isn't a theoretical discussion. I witnessed a public attack that I think could have led to somebody's death, and I intervened in a fashion the responding cops had no problems with despite my being armed.

It was late in December of '97. I was waiting for the last subway train heading home at midnight on a Saturday. While standing on the platform, I noticed four women running through the middle of the approaching (slowing) car. I couldn't tell if they were just fooling around, or running to or from something, but it was clearly weird.

I headed towards where the car doors were going to open near them. I had a 5.5" knife legally open-carry on belt, I had a smaller folder in my back right pocket, and in my front pocket I had a 4-shot .22Magnum minirevolver...carried illegally in California.

On coming through the doors, I found between 8 and 12 bystanders watching the women kick and stomp a single downed male. He was trying to cover up and was visibly bleeding from a head wound.

I hovered my right hand over my knife to make sure it wasn't grabbed, held my left hand straight out and pushed all four women off the guy while yelling "IT'S OVER" repeatedly. The victim staggered to his feet and retreated into the next car back; I faded back to block the narrow doorway to the victim.

The four women started yelling and screaming. Nasty surprise #1: two pulled out standard carpenter's claw hammers, one visibly dripping blood. I hadn't seen them before; odds are I didn't focus on their hands closely enough during my initial "charge" and only the surprise effect kept them from bashing my skull in.

Nasty surprise #2: one of the bystanders yelled out "Hey, those are GUYS!". Jesus H...sure enough, adam's apples on every single one.

For about four to ten seconds or so I faced down four homicidal transvestites. Not fun. They waved the hammers around but at maybe 20ft range, I didn't feel threatened enough to actually draw knife or gun. I hovered my hand over the knife, clearly ready to draw. A couple of the bystanders finally figured they should at least object to public murder and make placating noises and also got "in the way". The freaky four finally left at that point. Somebody else had gone forward to tell the conductor what was up, he got on the radio and transit PD was waiting by the exits and nabbed 'em.

Aftermath: the cops knew exactly what I'd done, and knew about the knife. They liked the fact that I held off drawing, they didn't hassle me or search me and nobody else at the scene ever knew about the gun. After giving a statement, I left with my knife still on me, unconfiscated. At the DA's pre-trial conference, the victim shook my hand; he'd been carted out in an ambulance but recovered just fine from a concussion.

The attack started when one of the he-shes spat on the victim's girlfriend and ran off laughing into the next car. The victim had then asked his G/F what the heck those "bitches" were doing, and the G/F had explained that they were guys. Shocked, the victim followed the "freaky four" into the next car, demanded to know what the heck they were doing and they immediately jumped him, starting the attack with the hammers.

Because the victim "followed" the assailants, the DA pled it to misdemeanor assaults; six months later they were out on probation. A month after release, one of 'em attacked an Oakland cop with a knife, that clown is now in the state pen as far as I know. In other words, freaky or not these were some very dangerous nutcases.

Lessons: by "objecting to the crime without serious violence", I kept myself out of trouble. Had they then attacked me, it becomes more of a case of self-defense, although there's still the possibility of things going squirrely in court. Still, this looks better by FAR than if I'd full-on attacked the "women" right from the get-go, especially if I'd brought a weapon into play "prematurely".

Going in, I couldn't be sure that the downed party wasn't at least partly at fault. He could have been a purse-snatcher or God only knows what. If the "women" had been partially victims, nothing I did would have hurt them - I didn't even push them off their feet. Regardless of what the victim might have done, the level of force I saw being stomped into him was WAY overboard. As it turned out, he was 100% clean.

Pulling a weapon is a major step. Using it is yet another. Yelling isn't nearly the same thing. Think carefully about this continuity of force.

In the very first example in this thread where one guy has a baseball bat and the other didn't, it's 100% legal to *yell* at one or both parties. It's also legal to physically get between an assailant and a victim. It's dangerous, but legal. I do NOT recommend doing so when both parties "still want a piece of each other", things will get WAY too chaotic. Buying time for a victim to flee is a better bet. If you're acting legally by verbally objecting or physically acting as a barrier and a criminal attacks you for it, I *think* that leaves you completely clear to defend yourself if necessary.

My main screwup was not watching their hands. I "fixated" on the first weapon I saw - the boots they were kicking with.

Anyways. I can live with what I did, and learn from the one minor mistake. I've since stopped packing illegally because I've launched a lawsuit and other efforts to score a CCW permit; getting busted for illegal carry would end that forever.

I've upgraded my knives though, and gotten at least a bit of training in their use .

Jim March
Equal Rights for CCW Home Page http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw