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Old February 4, 2001, 01:44 AM   #1
Romulus
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I searched an old thread on good gun lubricants. Proper lubrication of firearms has always been a pet peeve of mine, considering that this or that hi-tech grease or mystery oil or dry-powder space age formulas cost more than gold. A few posters in that old thread said they used fully-synthetic motor oil and synthetic automotive grease. My question, which differs in kind from that old post, is: any reason for discouraging the use of a fully synthetic motor oil, formulated from a decent base, in firearms? Same question for the greases.

Other than staining clothes in CC mode...
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Old February 4, 2001, 06:10 PM   #2
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I have a question too about lubricants. Now my old Mossberg 500, I use Hoppes to clean, and 3 in 1 to lube, or Hoppes oil. However, I have a new AR-15 (oh yeah!) that I haven't fully assembled yet. I keep reading about CLP in the Gov. manuals, and in other forums. Is CLP the only lube and cleaner that can or should be used on an AR? Or will good old No. 9 and some 3 in 1 be adequate? I need to know so I don't screw up my new toy.

Thanks!
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Old February 4, 2001, 08:13 PM   #3
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Brothers & Sisters-in-Arms,
Please to view the following:
http://www.tecrolan.com
By your leave.
Regards,
Lance Gothic
Shibumi
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Old February 9, 2001, 10:32 AM   #4
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3 in 1 ?!!!! anybody that would use that stuff on a gun would use WD40 too! Save that junk for squeeky door hinges and the like and get a good high quality lubricant especially made for firearms.
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Old February 9, 2001, 12:05 PM   #5
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Perhaps the simplest way to pin this question down is that NO Major firearms mfg. uses or recomends any Motor oil synthetic or otherwise. Nor does the Military use same. There are a number of synthetics, etc. that are used by both and most have MSN #'s. Mobil does not recomend its syn oil for use on firearms if you care to conctact them. FWIW, personally have settled on TW25B grease, actually a "creme" {Used in-house by Glock, *&*, FN USA, Sig, etc.} and Militec-1 syn oil a ca. 10 wt. that is actualy a metal treatment that is reactive to the heat produced by the pistol. Even when "wet" the stuff does not attract &/or hold firing "soot", etc. Tetra grease is also a "stand-by" for the newer lubes. Good info @: http://www.mil-comm.com {TW25B} usually best $ @ http://www.bestdefense.com http://www.militec-1.com and http://www.tetraproducts.com
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Old February 10, 2001, 05:47 PM   #6
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Why is Mil-Comm claiming credit for TW25B when TW25B is a Kleen-Bore product?

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Old February 11, 2001, 01:57 AM   #7
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It's the other way around. Kleen-Bore is licensed to package & sell TW25B with their own label so long as they acknowledge that it IS TW25B. Check Kleen-Bore's prices against http://www.bestdefense.com and you will see why!
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Old February 11, 2001, 08:33 PM   #8
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Thanks for all your input. However a gallon of Break-Free CLP at fifty bucks was too good to pass up, it will give me plenty cover. It was on sale at http://www.cheaperthandirt.com Meanwhile, I'll still look for "the best" lubricant...

Thanks again, folks
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Old February 11, 2001, 09:17 PM   #9
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Romulus - make sure you shake it up before either using or putting it in a smaller container. The Teflon particles tend to sink to the bottom.

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Old February 11, 2001, 10:00 PM   #10
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Good point, Giz, thanks. I actually came across the "teflon suspension thing" while doing some web-based research...but no one mentioned the "teflon precipitation thing," as you seem to imply...so thanks
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Old February 12, 2001, 02:04 AM   #11
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Interesting test for the various CLPs and lubes done last fall at;
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-rust.html
I use Breakfee on most of my firearms except for the Garand and M1A, which used mil spec grease. MWT
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Old February 17, 2001, 02:07 AM   #12
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I hope to post an "authoritative" response soon to this marvelous mystery...
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Old February 21, 2001, 04:42 PM   #13
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MOBIL 1

I find it hard to believe that a motor oil (Mobil 1 15-50) that can protect a $500,000 Indy car engine that revs at 15,000rpms+ is not good enough for my handguns. And a $4.00 quart will last me a lifetime.
Somebody prove me wrong.
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Old February 22, 2001, 03:07 AM   #14
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Brief update:

I am turning over samples of CLP, ProShot Gold, and Shooter's Choice to a chemical engineer who will bench test and give some empirical results. Having just bought a gallon of CLP I find the excersise academic, but it's good to have and spread knowledge if only for its own sake...
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Old February 22, 2001, 05:20 PM   #15
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about lubricants

Motor oil is meant for motors. And it doesn't have corrosion protection or other properties for firearms built in.

CLP is old technology being replaced as we speak by the US tri-services with Mil-Comm's tw-25b.

The TW-25B oil, like any synthetic oil formulation, will separate. Extensive US tri-service tests have proven that such separation can be remedied by a quick shake, even though amazingly, the performance of the product is not hindered. The TW-25B sister, MC-3000, used on the F-16, stirs itself once those birds leave the ground.

After initial application, TW-25B coats the surface for long term protection. Bestdefense.com sells i think all of the packagings of tw-25b.
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Old February 22, 2001, 08:31 PM   #16
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When you say "separate" what do you mean? I think simply to say motor oil "is for motors" is a reductive statement that doesn't really answer the question of why the application of Mobil 1 is inappropriate for a firearm - it may in fact be such, but on what physico-chemical grounds? The answer would have to include information on the film properties of Mobil 1 versus those of the more "high-tech" gun-specific lubricants.

Corrosion prevention is a distinct subject...more about that later.

Thanks for your input
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Old February 23, 2001, 10:36 PM   #17
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Man, is there a lot of crap flying around in this thread. Someone please backup their answers with some real research other than "my Uncle Hans uses XPH35 in his underwear and it works great." I myself am a chemical engineer and know enough to call BS on some statements.

First, Mobil 1 contains some EXCELLENT corrosion inhibitors in the form of long-chain amines (oxygen scavengers). Second, what special "corrosion protection needs" do firearms have that my engine doesn't. In particular, except for temperature differences and alloy differences, and the fact that firearms are coated and therefore the "metal bonding" crap is overated.

Why would Mobil 1 recommend motor oil for firearms? To sell a few more quarts, while taking on some major liability since they don't have a clue what you are doing with the oil. Forget about it...manufacturers rarely if ever recommend a product for use on an "unapproved" application. Don't take it as a blessing or curse that they do not approve of this use...

Why would I care if Sig or any other manufacturer uses an oil or grease in house? Their guns see a few rounds and go in a box for shipment. They use whatever is satisfactory and can be bought cheap, even if they get a better discount for telling us that they use it. Do you think car manufacturers put top notch synthetic in a car before selling it to you? No way, they buy the cheapest crap they can that meets specs.

I gotta tell you that if you believe some snake oil "is reactive to metal" I want to sell you some property I got in Love Canal. Give me a break. This snake oil is probably a good blend of synthetic oils (bought from a large OIL COMPANY), and some other corrosion inhibitors - it is probably good stuff, just don't have a 'gasm over some fiction a fantasy writer came up with over a cup of coffee..."Let's see, 'This specially formulated lubricant took years of R&D and hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop. It actually bonds with the metal in a highly reactive, tramsmographic retrotransformation whereby the neutrinos in the upper micron of the metal surface are transmogrified into the slickest substance known to man...even slicker than SLICK 50."

The fact that some military bureacracy buys the stuff is of no comfort to me...they probably are paying good tax dollars for something they could replace with, say, Mobil 1 from Wal-Mart. Give it a rest.
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Old February 23, 2001, 10:46 PM   #18
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Thank yew, Curuzer...now I wish I hadn't bought that CLP! And you've chased away any thought I had of researching the "corrosion prevention" thing...Your argument rings true and authoritative.

Back to my initial post, does your argument hold true for automotive greases as well?

Thanks
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Old February 23, 2001, 11:02 PM   #19
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I can think of one problem with motor oil.....it's too thick. I'm NOT a chemical engineer, but I do spend a lot of time working on firearms. Gun oil tends to be lighter than motor oil for a reason. Different flow characteristics are required. Imagine shooting a weapon full of Cosmoline (saw the results of it).

There are different types of motor oils for different applications. You don't use 5W30 in an engine designed for 10W40. Why not stick with a product designed for the purpose you have in mind?

Last, what 'coatings' are you talking about? Blueing (a controlled rust), Parking(a controlled reaction that etches the metal)? Even an NP3 coating wears. You know those shiny spots on your weapon? THE COATING WORE OFF.....and the metal needs to be protected. I doubt you can re-blue or park your guns as frequently as I do. That means you have to protect your guns from wear. By the way, an interesting effect to parking is that the finish itself tends to hold oil. when a parked finish is dry, it can rust because water can get into the finish. Some oils do stay on metal longer (better wear properties). If I'm not mistaken, engines are designed under the 'oil bath' concept, where oil is continually pumped throughout the engine (hence 'oil pressure) during operation. Engine internals will begine to rust if the engine is not run for a while (my experience as little as one month). Firearm mehanicals tend to be less tolerant of rust (functioning) than my favorite 350 small block.....
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Old February 24, 2001, 12:58 AM   #20
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Whoa. Hold on.

Romulus, CLP is a fine lubricant and will protect your gun. Keep your weapon lubricated (not too wet, not too dry) and it will give you many years of enjoyment. Many gun makers recommend against using grease on your gun (other than for storage). Grease generally attracts dirt and provides marginally better protection than a good liquid lubricant. If you must use grease, I have no reason to believe that Tetra or any other "white grease" would provide significantly different protection. Some people use Slick 50 PTFE grease, others say that it is "gritty" and will damage your gun. I honestly don't know, other than to say that if your manufacturer says "use oil" I would use oil.

By the way, Mobil 1 sells a spray synthetic lubricant you can use for guns (Castrol/Hoppes and Pennzoil also make synthetic gun lubes). I like and use the Castrol/Hoppes brand.

George, the main reason engine lubricants are viscous at room temperature is a function of the package of polymeric additives needed to maintain a low viscosity at low temperatures (ie. winter cold starts) and stable viscosity at operating temperature (eg. hot engine). My educated guess is that, while gun lubricants are not purposely made viscous (because it is of no operating benefit), it is likely also of no detriment (it won't hurt the gun, because it doesn't really affect lubricity whether or not it is thick...to a limit). Having said that, I favor using Castrol/Hoppes or some other similar sythetic GUN oil (synthetics DO provide a small advantage over distillates, again in my educated opinion).

Now regarding blueing, parkerizing, and other coatings: so called "miracle lubricants" that "bond" to the metal depend on adhesion directly to metal surfaces - and only steel and iron for that matter. If 95% of the surface has been blued or parkerized, then you get absolutely no advantage from the "miracle lubricant" (the additive sits on the coating surface, and the carrier oil does all the work). While lubricant that soaks into the pores of the metal will protect from corrosion, it provides absolutely no extra "bonding protection" on the surface, which is largely parkerized/blued. Now, you are right that some surfaces will become worn and the metal will become exposed. How will the "miracle lubricant" help in that case? Well, in order for the active ingredient to work, it needs heat, friction, and significant time to properly bond. In a car engine, this happens quite naturally. On a gun, when do significant heat, friction, and time come together...NEVER. The gun only really operates for a few minutes during an hour at the range. That is not enough time for bonding to occur. For those who decide to bake or use a hair blower, they risk exposure to strong acid vapors, and cannot nearly create the conditions created inside an engine (which is where the d**n additives were meant for in the first place). Now teflon enriched gun oils are a different matter...I have no real problem with those. Take my advice, the reason all those "miracle lubes" lose their law suits is that they are stretching the truth beyond its scientific limits. Pick up a good gun lubricant at the gun shop and avoid all the "mop and glow" products.

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Old February 24, 2001, 03:21 AM   #21
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I can only base my opinion from what I've seen and experienced. If, say, EEZOX doesn't 'bond' to the metal and give any added protection, Then how come other oils bead up when applied to the EEZOX-treated metal (blued in this case), and continued to do so after a cleaning with Sweet's solvent? I tend to believe what I see with my own eyes, and I've seen the improvement more than once. Besides, we aren't talking car treatments here....but if we were:

If it's a given that synthetics are better than the natural oils, then why is it so hard to accept that one synthetic is better than another for a specific purpose?

Last, I hate to disabuse your faith in the teflon enriched stuff, but anyone who has used it can tell you that it is only as good as its carrier oil. The teflon, if not balled up in the bottom of your bottle and completely useless, is NOT aiding in the lubrication of your weapon past first shot---the only thing left is the carrier oil.Remember, the teflon is not bonding to the metal, and will move away from the bearing surfaces like a greased marble pinched between two fingers. In fact, the teflon particles tend to lump up in out-of-the-way nooks and crannies of your weapon and help to form crud deposits that can cause malfs. Remember also that most auto manufacturers recommended discontinuing teflon treatments due to particles clogging up everything, including the filters. Same thing happens with firearms.

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Old February 24, 2001, 11:53 AM   #22
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Eezox is a good product. Based on their description (ie. synthetic, not petroleum based; creates a dry thin-film; repels water and oils) it must be a silcone based lubricant (e.g. silicone, siloxanes, polyorganosiloxanes). Now these products, as you have experienced, are SUPERB at corrosion resistance. They are also excellent lubricants AT TEMPERATURE AND PRESSURE EXTREMES. At room temperature, mineral oils and particularly synthetics are better lubricants. In addition, silicone based lubricants have poor surface tension and adsorption - meaning that under heavy friction, they rub off and no longer provide good lubrication. If you later decide to discontinue use, silicone based lubricants tend to interfere with your new oil, and they are difficult to remove with other chemicals (I hope you like it). In principle, if you value corrosion resistance a lot and lubrication a little less, Eezox is your best bet.

Now regarding teflon, under extreme temperature and pressure, yes - teflon will do some nasty stuff like evaporate and create bad fumes, and also clump up. Now, on your handguns/rifles I don't think you get extreme temperatures and pressures. As you note, it is very important for dispersion that the teflon is shaken before application. The fact that it can settle is not problematic in and of itself.

In addition, as the parts move around, the teflon will tend to move around and may not be as effective if it is dry (it is better with a good carrier lubricant). Finally, if you clean relatively frequently I don't think there is any major chance for clumping up or any other "engine-like" phenomenon. The reason teflon is bad when it clumps in an engine is primarily that it plugs the filter (very bad). Solids in the engine are also not a good thing.

Gun oils are not a scientific breakthrough area. Most of the "miracle gun oils" are old technology brought to a small, new market. You can bet that new technologies are going into the big markets first. Teflon, siloxanes, chlorinated paraffins, synthetic organics: they are ALL old technology packaged and marketed under flashy names. In addition, they all have unique problems in use with weapons (some which you don't know about). For example, chlorinated paraffins tend to create hydrochloric acid and eat away at the very metal it is supposed to protect - and some people think this stuff is great, and bake/blow dry them onto their weapons! Don't be impressed - pickup something your gunmaker recommends and lube away.
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Old February 25, 2001, 01:52 PM   #23
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Curuzer/George:

I'm curious what you think regarding Sentry Solutions products. I have used their stuff for a couple of years and like the dry film (i.e. no oil on my clothes etc). They are a major PITA to apply but once set up have done the job for me. My guns usually run fine on this stuff once they have been repeat treated a couple of times. I am particularly interested in your opinions regarding their reported surface bonding to metals.

Very interesting and informed commentary, thank you gentlemen.

Regards,

Bob
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Old February 25, 2001, 11:27 PM   #24
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KODB,

I am going to go out on a limb since I have never used Sentry Solutions and am not familiar with their chemistry. Their wording places a lot of emphasis on: dry-film, great rust protection, not silicone, can rub off under lots of shear. These are all properties of SILOXANES (which technically are NOT silicone, although they are related). Again, if rust protection and easy cleaning are your primary concerns, these are great products. I would just make sure to renew the coatings on the high friction areas regularly, since these products do rub off and do not "flow back" into the dry areas to replenish themselves (like oil). I may actually look into these and try them on one of my guns.

By the way, siloxanes will "bond" (more like stick to) most metalic materials (and I believe to the coatings too). This is a different mechanism than that claimed by other new age lubricants that will react only with ferric metals (iron/steel) directly.

Cruzer
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Old February 26, 2001, 11:22 AM   #25
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My experience with using the Sentry products is pretty good. I run a couple of Sigs on it no problem. I had difficulty getting my wife's Beretta to run on it. I emailed Mike Mrozek and he indicated that firearms that have prev been lubricated with teflon containing products are more difficult to treat as the SmoothKote doesn't easily bond because of the teflon. I had used CLP w/teflon for years on that gun.

My Sig239 OTOH was Sentry'd right out of the box and required 3 repeated cycles of application, heating, and then shooting, then clean and reapply. After the 3rd application I have not had to reapply since. I've run around 5000 rounds through the gun since. I have touched up two small areas on the barrel with a qtip saturated with SmoothKote on 2 different occasions (took about 90 nanoseconds). My 228 which I bought used required 3 full cycles of application and then a subsequent full repeat after about 500 rounds, then none since (about 1000 rounds). I gave up on the Beretta and went back to oil.

I currently have 2 BHPs that I am in the process of applying/shooting. I'm on the 3rd full application with one gun running 100% and the other having an occasional stoppage. I suspect that after another application this will disappear.

I have a couple of bolt action rifles that I'm currently in the process of doing and will try to report back when I have results.

My sense is that these are good products IFFF you are willing to do the up front application and thorough degreasing that proper application requires. It is a PITA and timeconsuming initially, but it's awful nice now to go shoot an hour or two and basically run a brush down the barrel and shake off/brush off the rest for 2 min total cleaning and then back in the holster. Plus, no stains on my white dress shirts.

I'd be very interested in hearing how you make out Curuzer. Thanks for the information and once again for a very nicely presented discussion on lubricant properties.

Regards,

Bob
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