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Old December 10, 2001, 03:03 AM   #1
brandon_h3
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Good vs. bad of installing a laser sight on pistol?

What are the good, bad and evil of installing one of those little laser sight things that clamps to the trigger guard or wraps around the grip? I've heard intimidation is a major plus, and I haven't heard any negatives. Any ideas?
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Old December 10, 2001, 04:34 AM   #2
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It cost you money better spent on practice ammo.
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Old December 10, 2001, 05:44 AM   #3
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The negatives are:

Peeps think the laser will do everything for them - all they do is pull the trigger - but you can still pull the gun off target with poor technique.

People also will rely completely on the laser and not learn to properly use the sights. If the laser fails, they are in a sad place.

It may be too bright to see your red dot.

The laser may give you away at night when you dont want it to.

How many times have you heard a gun fight survivor say "if it was not for that laser, I would have been dead"? (I have never heard that) Most of the time you hear "I just heard my training say 'seek cover' and 'FRONT SIGHT FRONT SIGHT FRONT SIGHT!'

Thats what you hear.

Hardware is no substitute for software - learn to use the sights.



Probably the only legit tactical reason I can see for using a laser is that in a team (swat, etc) situation, you can see your buddies lasers and people can know who is shooting/aiming at what.
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Old December 10, 2001, 06:15 AM   #4
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Lasers are another gimmick for the uneducated gun owner.Since you're talking about a rail or trigger guard mounted laser I assume this isn't for your carry gun.In that case look into the red dot scopes like the Optima 2000.You'll get faster site aquisition than a laser.
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Old December 10, 2001, 10:16 AM   #5
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I've got lasers on my competition guns and they work fine for me. Most people that hate lasers are the ones that have never used them or have been beaten by them.
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Old December 10, 2001, 10:38 AM   #6
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I have always been taught that a gun is only pointed at something its operator is willing to destroy.

People sometimes think that using a red dot will deter someone from harming you--as if looking down the barrel of the gun is any different! If the BG is going to give up as soon as he/she/it sees the dot, he/she/it will give up upon seeing you draw a weapon.

I'd like to see some data supporting the idea that illuminating a target with a red dot leads a person to give up. I don't think it exists.

This issue is closely related to using weapon-mounted lights.
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Old December 10, 2001, 10:40 AM   #7
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Crimson Trace review

They (CT) work and they work well. There are two sets of Crimsom Trace grips in the family. They are not a replacement for learning the basics but they do have their place. My Mom who doesn't get to practice as much as I do, showed a bigger improvement with them than I did. But I did show an improvement with them in some circumstances. I am definitely not an uneducated or poor shooter.

The only negatives that I've seen is the cost. We have two. They are another tool that when learned and used properly are an asset.
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Old December 10, 2001, 10:58 AM   #8
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I personally have no need for a laser sight on any of my weapons. If I get into competition shooting then the Optima will be what I choose. I would rather tune my shooting skills and target acquisition using my sights than rely on a laser. Just my thoughts though. All I can say is try it and see how you feel with it. I didnt like it and wont use it again.

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Old December 10, 2001, 11:08 AM   #9
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" They are another tool that when learned and used properly are an asset. "

Ditto. But they are not for everyone, but to each his/her own.

Re laser failure: People should be well practiced with iron sights, but I think that most people are capable of quickly learning the complexities of pistol sights.

At defensive distances, and in most defensive situations, the sights won't be used at all, but it's hard to miss that red dot (if you remember, or have time to turn it on) . Try practicing "quick shooting" with one and you'll quickly learn why so many shots go astray in high stress situations.

Another advantage of a laser, is that a person doesn't have to sight down the bore to deliver accurate fire. This allows you to shoot from behind cover and at odd angles.
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Old December 10, 2001, 02:00 PM   #10
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All good points ATTICUS.

The defensive positions range anywhere from 45 ft for Arizona law to alot less. Anything over 45 ft and Arizona looks at it as being offensive in your attack and not defensive. Unless of course the perp is shagging rounds at you first. I practice shooting from the hip alot from a quick draw position for close quarters defense. If your weapon fits your hand right then upon draw you should be level with your weapon which should give you a center of mass hit.

Once again, practice is the key.

Either way, personal preference is the key here.
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Old December 10, 2001, 05:48 PM   #11
Chuck Ames
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The only reasons that I know of for lasers are
1. They look cool
2. You're operating at night with NVGs which if you haven't done it, sucks.
3. It might be intimidating if you were holding someone at gunpoint and told them "hey, look at the red dot on your chest" but how many of us train that way with them.
4. In most gunfights the bad guy will be too busy shooting at you to notice.
5. If you're not training with the sights, and focusing on the trigger press, you can easily pull the gun off target like Pendragon said.

So unless you are operating with NVGs, they don't really do a lot for you.
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Old December 10, 2001, 05:58 PM   #12
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Now hold on...........

KPS
Quote:Lasers are another gimmick for the uneducated gun owner.

I beg to differ. I am a Firearms Instructor and I use mine (both lasers & red dots) for training purposes. There is nothing like your student seeing that little red dot bouncing all over the place to show them how important breath control and trigger control is. Of course they learn the iron sights first, but they are a great training device. Finally, I use one on my Beretta 92FS for home defense and it is awsome. The wife loves it and it has never let me down (LaserLyte). For those of you who haven't tried it out, go for it. It is a great accessory to your firearm. I converted two people two weeks ago into laser lovers.
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Old December 10, 2001, 07:21 PM   #13
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Anybody besides me remember KISS? (and no, not the freaks with all the make-up)
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Old December 10, 2001, 09:01 PM   #14
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Well it hasn't saved my a** in a gun fight, but it did save me in my quals.
I used this crappy fiochi ammo, and had to clear jams every couple of rounds in a timed exercise. If not for my laser site, I would never have passed. 90 percent in points is what is required to pass.

As for negitives, the ones that work cost almost as much as the guns. The 99 dollar cheap ones are throw aways. I wouldn't even bother to buy one unless it was for an air gun. I had to buy 2 and get 2 replacements to learn my mistake. They never held zero between shots. The point of aim would always change between shots. And eventually the pressure switch wiring died.
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Old December 11, 2001, 02:27 AM   #15
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From my experience I will say that they are a great training aid and nothing more. If you want to demonstrate trigger control, both good and bad, dry fire with a laser equipped weeapon. More significantly for me is in the teaching of tactics. Trying to get the idea across that you cannot run and place accurate weapons fire at the same time is difficult with some people. My instructions are to move no faster than you can while placing accurate fire. By handing the student a weapon with a laser, he or she can see the little red dot going all over the damn place when they do not follow the proper movement techniques. They can also see how steady they can be when they do things right. It speeds the learning curve.

I must respectfully disagree with an earlier post regarding the use of lasers on tac teams. This is a definite NO-NO. When you make an entry as a team you have four or five red dots, possibly on the same target. Trying to figure out which one is yours is next to impossible when you only have a fraction of a second to engage (or not). There is still no replacement for proper use of the front sight in a team environment.

One last remark - A Crimson Trace laser grip is completely worthless until the moment you are actually ready to fire, thus negating any perceived intimidation factor. Why do I say this? Simple. When your trigger finger is riding along the edge of the frame, where it should be prior to making the decision to fire, your finger blocks the little red dot.
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Old December 11, 2001, 11:07 AM   #16
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Maybe lasers have their place on the range or for training, but I just can't see putting them on a combat handgun. Every officer I've asked said that they were a dead (pun intended) giveaway in a gunfight. I don't think Brandon was talking about range guns anway, or at least I hope he's not trying to "intimidate" others at the range. FWIW I just don't understand any of the "attachments" to a gun, especially those tactical flashlights. Seems like the flashlight would make a good POA for the BG. I dunno, if you want a "swiss army gun" complete with laser, flashlight, bayonnet, rangefinder, compass, and a bottle opener go for it. I just think the money would be better spent on training, ammo, or simply a better gun. Of course I'm no expert so whatever floats your boat.
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Old December 11, 2001, 11:49 AM   #17
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I have a little laser experience on a 9mm carbine (it was on there when I bought it), none with a handgun. I took a couple of non shooters out near dusk (this just happened to be when we went, I never even considered the laser) and they loved the laser. To me, it is no different than the advantages of putting a dot optical sight on a competition gun. You have no more sight alignment to think about. You don't have images of the back sight, front sight, target all in varying degrees of eye focus. It was much easier for me to tell them to just put the dot on the target rather than trying to explain how sight alignment works. Since they were getting hits on the targets (junk lying in the desert) they had a great time. I always considered stuff like this to be arm chair commando material but after seening that, I decided that maybe a laser has it's good points for someone who doesn't shoot much or someone that hasn't shot at all. I am sure that after their experience, they would feel confident shooting with the laser rather than the frustration I commonly see when people find out that shooting isn't like on TV (it is an aquired skill that takes practice to develop). I also feel that this might be a good thing for a home defense gun. I don't know if a particular person would be intimidated by being hit in the chest with a laser, but I guarentee that being hit in the eye with a laser will have a significant effect on anyone. Obviously the correct situation would have to present itself. The point is that if my girlfriend is awakened in the middle of the night by someone breaking out a window and is in the process of climbing in, a simple red dot on the target followed by a trigger squeze seems like the KISS priciple to me. She agreed. A lot of these threads get carried away with senarios involving swat team raids and running gun battles in the streets when the vast majority of us are a lot more concerned with protecting ourselves and our families from someone that just kicked in the front door. I personally have no interest in putting a laser on anything else I own and I don't think I have ever used the laser on that carbine other than the couple times I mentioned. But, I can see it's value for a inexperienced person home alone in a HD situation.
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Old December 11, 2001, 01:47 PM   #18
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Great point!

Quote:
One last remark - A Crimson Trace laser grip is completely worthless until the moment you are actually ready to fire, thus negating any perceived intimidation factor. Why do I say this? Simple. When your trigger finger is riding along the edge of the frame, where it should be prior to making the decision to fire, your finger blocks the little red dot.
Never thought about that, and you're right!
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Old December 11, 2001, 02:04 PM   #19
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Laser lights are great...

for playing with the cat. Other than that I don't have any use for them. If you want one, it's a free country and it's your funeral.:barf:
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Old December 11, 2001, 07:57 PM   #20
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I bought a laser grip for one of my 1911's, simply because a guy was selling it real cheap, and I'd never tried one before. It's fun at times at the range, but I'd never consider one for defensive use. I hear all the talk about how you'll transition to the sights if the laser fails, or you can't find the beam, and I think that's bunk! First off, if the laser fails, or the light is too bright for it's use, you'll waste valuable seconds trying to find the dot, and probably end up on the losing end of any armed encounter in that case.

Fun toy and an interesting training aid, as long as you remember that's what it is.
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Old December 12, 2001, 03:45 AM   #21
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These things run on batteries, don't they? 'Nuff said.

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Old December 12, 2001, 09:36 AM   #22
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Intimidation factor is pretty iffy. Lot of people in classes have had the little dot on their chests and did not know till told.

If little dot is on a person, you must have make up your mind to shoot them, why bother with intimidation if you gonna shoot em anyway.

Just thinkin outloud.

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Old December 12, 2001, 12:49 PM   #23
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Here is what I am thinking C.R. I was dating a woman who lived with her son in a single story house. When I met her, she had something like a Jennings .22 auto. She was concerned about personal protection and wanted something else but didn't have the money for it. I came across one of those Hi-point 9mm Carbines with a laser, 4 mags, and most of a case of ammo for $75. I bought it because I figured I couldn't get hurt on the deal. If the gun turned out to be as bad as it looked, I could sell the gun and keep the ammo. After trying it, the gun turned out to be pretty good. It had never jammed and was fairly accurate. I took the GF out to try it and she had a ball using the laser. It occured to me that this might be the perfect HD gun for someone in her situation. Much easier to hit with than a handgun, cheap, gives a little more power than a 9mm handgun without any significant recoil, and she was quickly hitting fairly small targets with the laser. It seemed to me that if she was awakened in the middle of the night with someone breaking in, she could grab the carbine and stay pretty much behind the cover of the doorway while she covered almost of the whole house from that position. She has no way to turn the lights on in the rest of the house from there, so the person breaking in will be in the dark. She wouldn't know immediatly if he had a gun or not. She might be able to get away with just shooting and asking questions later, but I would put the laser on him instead. This gives you several things, #1 you are now aiming the gun at him even if you can't see the sights since it is dark. (no, someone that can barely keep thier head above water isn't going to pay for nightsights) Yes she could have a flashlight that also takes batteries, takes one hand to operate, is something else to remember to grab and find under stress, and defitely gives away your position. It also ruins your night vision. #2 In the excitment of the situation I couldn't see her using the sights anyway, if she used the laser that would be a bonus. She did a very little bit of shooting; she wasn't experienced with guns. You and I would probably be looking through the sights without even thinking about it, I doubt she would. #3 if he wasn't armed or he had the gun stuck in his waistband he might see the laser and decide it would be a lot better to leave or surrender rather than trying to draw saving everyone concerned a terrible nightmare. If he doesn't see the laser we have lost nothing over the same situation without the laser and we have better shot placement. #4 If she hit him in the eyes with the laser this would certainly make the situation turn in her favor. If you shine one of these things in your eye you will see what I mean.
So, you had people in a class that didn't know the laser was on them, sure, they were in a lighted room and they didn't see a little red light on a rifle pointing at them from behind the doorway. Why bother ? Because I the last thing I would want to do is shoot someone. It would be a last ditch effort, If you have the element of being in position to shoot and am behind cover I definitely will try several forms of intimidation before shooting if I can. If he starts shooting, all bets are off. If he isn't shooting or I don't see a gun, I would put the dot on him and try to talk him out of doing anything stupid. These run on batteries, yes, so what. If you don't keep tabs on your weapon and the batteries are dead you are no worse off than if you didn't have the laser at all. I think I bought this gun at least two years ago. The last time I checked the batteries in the laser still worked and I have no idea how long the batteries were in it prior to me buying it. If this is an issue, replace the batteries every year. Most of us change out our ammo every so often, most of us switch mags every so often. I don't think it would be out of the question to check that the batteries were good once in awhile and change them during preventitive maintainence at least annually.
I don't feel that much of this is an issue for me. I have a rottweiler, I have handguns with night sights, I have shotguns, I shoot a couple times a week, I feel that I am better prepared mentally than someone in her situation. But for her, this seemed to solve a lot of problems.
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Under the trees at the turn of the road,
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Old May 23, 2002, 04:24 AM   #24
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I bought a LaserMax

I have owned and used handguns for decades, and I just bought my first laser for one. I got a LaserMax internal sight for my S&W Sigma 40. (After an initial problem with the gun, where I had to send it back for a new barrel and some trigger work, it has digested a few thousand rounds of just about everything without a problem -- for all those who would ask. I have had it since shortly after they first came out and I definitely like it.)

Here are the goods and bads of the laser as I see it.

First, I am a civilian and it is against the law in California to point weapons at people without damn good cause so I don't think I would be using the laser for intimidation very much. I have pretty much decided that I will exhaust all the other options for dealing with a situation, I will have confirmed in my own mind that I have good legal cause to shoot and then, if I need to pull a gun, the BG will probably see the muzzle blast first.

There probably are situations, such as multiple BGs with knives or something, where pulling the gun and shining the light might be a good idea as opposed to just blazing away. That's possible but, as a civilian, I honestly haven't encountered many of them. (A little vigilance helps in avoiding such situations and I don't have to travel to bad neighborhoods much.) If the BG has a gun, I certainly wouldn't put a red dot on his chest and then give him the option of deciding who shoots first.

The most likely scenario is someone in my home at night when they shouldn't be and, if that's the case, he should assume he died when he climbed in through the window. If an intruder is in my home, I certainly wouldn't want the police to get all confused listening to two different stories. It is easier to sort things out with one dead body and one story. Besides, I wouldn't want anybody suing me because I wounded him. I used to be an insurance adjuster and one of the things I learned is that it is far cheaper to kill someone than it is to leave them seriously injured and requiring medical care for the rest of their lives.

One place where I can imagine using the laser as intimidation is if the BG was holding an innocent person in front of them. In that situation, you don't want to shoot if there is any risk to an innocent party, so the laser is perhaps one more method of convincing the BG to give it up while there is still time. In that kind of situation, it would give you more freedom to look around while holding steady on the BG.

Second, as others have pointed out, no add-on toy is a substitute for knowing how to properly handle the weapon, without a laser, or sights for that matter. If you aren't good enough to hit what you are aiming at under any conditions when it is proper to shoot, then spend your money on ammo at the range, not lasers. I am certainly not the best shot in the world, but the last time I went to the range I put 200 rounds in one big ragged hole in the forehead of the silhouette target, so I am not going to rely on a laser to save my life.

Cost was not much of a consideration for me (I am a computer consultant, so I make considerably more than the typical cop) but I had never had a laser before and I didn't want to spend upwards of 400 bucks on something that I wasn't absolutely sure I was going to like. I bided my time, and eventually I found a LaserMax on sale for my weapon for 150 bucks. At that price, I decided it was worth trying.

If I got a laser, I wanted the Lasermax because I had looked the rest over and just didn't like most of them. The ones that mount on the trigger guard are just hokey, not to mention the fact that they aren't likely to hold a zero. My gun doesn't have a utility rail so adding one that attaches to a utility rail would mean buying a new gun. Besides, any laser that attaches to the outside makes the gun bulkier and harder to handle, and then you have to get new holsters, hang some wires on the outside, etc.. I looked into getting one installed internally -- that was about 550 bucks, nuff said. The LaserMax just replaces the guide rod and spring, so it doesn't have those problems.

Anything engineered is a series of tradeoffs, however. The one problem it does have is battery life. The first batteries in it lasted about 45 minutes of fairly continuous use at the range. Oh well, batteries are cheap enough if you look around, and I just keep a big box of them handy and change them regularly. If the batteries go dead at the critical time, as some have mentioned might happen, then see the part about 200 rounds in one ragged hole with iron sights. So what?

Alignment-wise, I found it shot about four inches low from the point of aim of the sights at 25 feet, the typical maximum distance I figured I would probably be using it for self-defense. That's not perfect, but it will do for home defense. I may try to adjust it later.

The first and biggest advantage I found was in training. If I was flinching or pulling a shot, there was no kidding myself about it. It is a great way to practice your trigger squeeze, and I think the investment was worth it just for that.

I haven't tried out in the field for hunting yet, but it seems like it might be a lot of fun there, too. I wouldn't expect to work in broad daylight, of course, so it would only be useful in the later afternoon or early evening.

One thing I learned right away is that the laser/gun combo has some limitations. One of the things I thought was how cool it would be to be able to hold at the waist, not use the sights at all, and still put all the shots in the ten ring. Well, I could, but the Sigma kept throwing red-hot brass in my face, so I went back to a more conventional position.

I think I definitely would use it in a defense situation. The reason is that I have other people besides me in my home and, if I have to shoot, I want to be absolutely sure where the bullet is going to go. I can shoot pretty well, but I know just from shooting out in the countryside that it isn't always given that you will have the lighting or shooting conditions where you can leisurely line up a perfect sight picture and think it over. The most likely scenario is in my home, at night, with both me and the BG moving. That's a bit different than lining up on the ten ring on a well-lit piece of paper at the range.

Even if you do line up a reasonably good sight picture, it is really easy to have a small problem with your grip or something that points the muzzle about a quarter-inch off where you thought it was pointing, especially if you are using a short-barreled gun. That small deviation at the muzzle can translate into a big miss -- which means the bullet is off through one or more walls hitting things I didn't intend to hit. The laser at least gives me a visual confirmation that the sight picture is really as good as I thought it was -- or allows me to shoot without a sight picture at all, if that's the situation.

But, I wouldn't have it on until I was just about ready to shoot. The BG will see red flash, big bang -- nothing more. As I said, if I think I have to pull the weapon at all, it is probably already too late for him. Negotiations have already ended. It would only serve as confirmation of the imminent kill under adverse conditions, not intimidation. (Although I have to admit that, if I was in someone else's house in the middle of the night and I suddenly saw this red dot moving around the walls, I would look for the nearest exit. Of course, I wouldn't be burglarizing someone else's house, so who knows whether the BG would feel the same? He wasn't rational when he broke in.)

Overall, I am quite glad I got it and my next handgun purchases will probably be based in part on whether I can get a good unobtrusive (hopefully reasonably cheap) laser for the gun (e.g., Lasermax, Crimson Trace grips, etc.). It is worth it just for the advantage it gives in training. I imagine it will be quite helpful when I get a chance to go out and practice point-and-shoot, bouncing tin cans around.
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Old May 23, 2002, 04:36 AM   #25
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IMNSLE -- "BAD"

VERY distracting; the movement of the light on the target is in CONSTANT motion.

I'll pass.
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