Traded my .45 for a .40...

BurkGlocker · October 21, 2009, 07:32 PM

just so I could shoot the damned thing. I have not seen any .45 ammo around here for I dont know how long. So I traded my G21SF for a G22 and I couldnt be happier.

Not only can I find ammo for it, but I forgot how much better the G22 fit my hand. 'Slim frame' model my rear; it definately felt like a brick, and yeah, I know, it looks like one too, but I am not here to start that argument with y'all.

I sold all of my .45 today, and went right online and ordered all the 40 S&W ammo I could afford. Didnt have to beg, borrow and steal to find it, just had to choose who was cheaper and shipped faster.

So, I am proud to say, I can finally buy ammunition in a caliber that I love.

zombieslayer · October 21, 2009, 07:38 PM

I love 40s&w! If you want, you can even buy a 9mm barrel for like 90 bucks, and shoot both calibers from the G22

sourdough44 · October 21, 2009, 07:43 PM

I think supplies are ramping up, all kinds of ammo, primers, & powder today at a shop.

wvshooter · October 21, 2009, 08:13 PM

I just bought a Smith 3rd generation 4046 DAO all steel semi auto in 40S&W. The gun shoots like a dream. I like 40.

I've got a bunch of 45acp brass but no reloading die set in 45 and no 45 caliber weapon. What's wrong with this picture. I'm not even sure I want a 45 because of the reduced round count. Lately I've been carrying a Smith 5906 3rd generation with 15 rounds of 9mm in the mag. Nice weapon. Keep telling me it's all about shot placement so I'll feel better.

gglass · October 21, 2009, 08:29 PM

I have posted this info in other threads, but I thought this might bolster your decision to move to the .40 S&W... You lost nothing in "real world" ammunition performance by making the move.

One of the best and most cited studies done on the subject of "stopping power" was done by Evan Marshall of the Detroit Police Department back in the 1990's. His study was compiled from data across the country using "real-world" shooting incidents. His study only collected data met this criteria:

Single bullet (no multiple shots)
Torso hits only (no head or appendage shots)
A "stop" meant that the perp dropped within 10-feet of the shot (out of commission)

The data shows that even lowly mousegun cartridge like the .380 ACP has a decent percentage for "stopping power". The percentage might not be in the near 90% range of the mighty .40 S&W, but it is still much higher than most people on this forum would be willing to give it credit. Isn't it interesting that the lowly .380 ACP Hydra-Shok JHP or Cor-Bon JHP have a higher one shot stop percentage than the .45 ACP FMJ cartridges. Have we not all seen on these very forums that people would rather carry a FMJ .45 than any small caliber cartridge. The idea being that a .45 ACP bullet does not really need to expand to be more effective than other calibers.

http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm

If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages:

.380 ACP = 62.29%
.38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90%
.38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60%
.357 Magnum = 86.55%
9mm = 82.44%
.40 S&W = 87.37%
.45 ACP = 82.50%

I don't know about you, but I'll take "real world" statistics over preconceived notions any day. (The notion being that the .45 ACP is somehow superior to the .40 S&W.)

BurkGlocker · October 21, 2009, 09:07 PM

I have been a 40S&W advocate for a long time. I bought the .45 just because it was a .45, but the pistol itself didnt fit me. I wouldve bought a 1911, but the Glock gave me the round capacity that the 1911 just cannot compete with.

I love the power of the .40, the ability of most weapons chambered for it to have a large magazine capacity, and the availablity of the ammo. When I went to Cabela's in Ft. Worth and Buda the other day (after a trip back from McAllen, TX), I did see .45 ammo, but it was all SD ammo, in 20 round packs. No plinking ammo to be seen.

Everywhere I look, I see .40 S&W ammo all over, plinking and SD ammo. I ordered a 100 rounds each of Winchester T-Series and Federal HST in 165 grainers. When was the last time you saw either of those for .45? Its been a year since I have, except for the one time I got lucky and saw some Rangers at the gun show, but for $45 a box (yes, I bought one).

I'm glad at my decision to switch back to the .40 after a 10 year hiatus from the cartridge and pistol combo, and I doubt that I will ever change back.

dabigguns357 · October 21, 2009, 09:17 PM

I agree with getting a .40 cal and i do love the caliber but in recent times i have grown to love my 357 sig as much.So where does it fit with the .40 as far as 1 shot stop percentages go.

If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages:
.380 ACP = 62.29%
.38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90%
.38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60%
.357 Magnum = 86.55%
9mm = 82.44%
.40 S&W = 87.37%
.45 ACP = 82.50%

FORDMAN0781 · October 21, 2009, 09:24 PM

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...40-sw-fmj-ammo

Very good turn around time for the ammo I ordered.

Crapulence · October 21, 2009, 09:34 PM

I too would like to see how the SIG would compare, it's my favorite round to shoot. I did just acquire a pristine Lone wolf .40 barrel this week. I'll try and sneak out this weekend to test it and see if I am enamored with the new caliber.

LeadFistExpress · October 21, 2009, 09:37 PM

My experience with .45 is limited to shooting a military issue 1911 in the Army. I can't really remember much about how it shot, the recoil, etc. But I have two .40s now and I love to shoot them both. If you are happy then I think you made a good choice. Enjoy your new pistols.

BurkGlocker · October 21, 2009, 09:42 PM

Fordman: Thats where I ordered my HSTs from, and hopefully they will be here by Friday. I had to order the T-Series from M.A.H. Supplies, and I've dealt with Mike (Hotpig) for awhile now and he has always had it here quick. This was my first time ordering from Ammo To Go, but hopefully they will ship quick, because I got an e-mail back saying that it will be shipped within 3-4 days. Grrrr...

But on the bright side, I have ammo on the way and cannot complain about that at all.

As for the 357 Sig. That would have to be my second favorite pistol cartridge. Owned a G31 a long time ago and I loved shooting just as much as my .40, but ammo was and still can be on the expensive side, in my opinion...

cavnamvet · October 21, 2009, 09:46 PM

If you get a rail light for your G22, you may want to stick with one manufactured by Glock. Many of the non-glock rail lights have caused
cycling problems with the G22.

cougar gt-e · October 21, 2009, 10:21 PM

[QUOTE]If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages:
.380 ACP = 62.29%
.38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90%
.38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60%
.357 Magnum = 86.55%
9mm = 82.44%
.40 S&W = 87.37%
.45 ACP = 82.50% [/QUOTE

Obviously you don't understand web etiquette! Bringing FACTS to a discussion is going to destroy those with an uneducated opposing view!

(joke)

jb

BurkGlocker · October 21, 2009, 10:29 PM

Quote:

If you get a rail light for your G22, you may want to stick with one manufactured by Glock. Many of the non-glock rail lights have caused
cycling problems with the G22.

The most I would do to it is night sights, no lights. Someone was nice enough to put an extended slide stop on it already, but put it in wrong, and was stopping the slide open while shooting. Two pin pushes later, and it worked like a charm...

GojuBrian · October 21, 2009, 10:32 PM

I've seen many people switching from .45acp for the same reason. Not only has the priced hiked, but the caliber has gone the way of the unicorn as well!

I'm sure it wil start turning up more often sooner or later, but .40 is always widely availiable and less expensive. Some people have even swithed from 9mm to .40S&W

GojuBrian · October 21, 2009, 10:34 PM

gglass,

Thankyou for that excellent and informative post!

rsxr22 · October 21, 2009, 10:41 PM

congrats! The G22 is a great gun!

DasFriek · October 21, 2009, 11:30 PM

I can find ammo of any type locally at the right places.But if i owned a .40 i could buy that crap all day long at the first closest store i stopped at.

I hit 5 stores today for 9mm and WalMart had 1 box,and Dicks had a few but for more than i wanted to pay.Dicks had .45 also but at $20 a box which seems the going rate at all stores locally.That is if you can find it,its getting scarce also.

Anyhow i just put a PPS 9 in layaway for cheap range duty and ccw,but it looks like CCW duty is all it will see until this clears up.

Something tells me that Detonics Combat Master im wanting next may be replaced by a .40

Playboypenguin · October 22, 2009, 12:07 AM

No objections here. I love the .40S&W round. In many ways I even prefer it over my .45acp pistols. Hard hitting round in a smaller platform with room for more rounds.

gutiw · October 22, 2009, 12:23 AM

Not being able to get ammo sucks. 45's are super. But 40's are also great. Not sure what the muzzle energy is compared to 45 but they are both great calibers.

when you have to put something down, so to speak, I'd resort to a 40 or 45 to do the job. Just on experience.

happy halloween

General Disarray · October 22, 2009, 01:39 AM

Quote:

If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages:
.380 ACP = 62.29%
.38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90%
.38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60%
.357 Magnum = 86.55%
9mm = 82.44%
.40 S&W = 87.37%
.45 ACP = 82.50%

This is great news. The debate is finally complete: all the bullet calibers are capable of dropping assailants. Fweew

I'm genuinely surprised the 9mm was equal to the .45 in that study. My issue with the .40 all along has been how much it makes the muzzle jump of whatever platform I shoot it from. If this data is reliable, then I'd much prefer the 9mm over any of them as that's the one I feel I can control the best; especially double tapping.

gglass · October 22, 2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Thankyou for that excellent and informative post!

Thanks

Quote:

I'm genuinely surprised the 9mm was equal to the .45 in that study. My issue with the .40 all along has been how much it makes the muzzle jump of whatever platform I shoot it from. If this data is reliable, then I'd much prefer the 9mm over any of them as that's the one I feel I can control the best; especially double tapping.

I think that most people are surprised when they see how closely most modern calibers perform in the real world. The data from the Marshall & Sanow research is accurate, and has spawned thousands of reports, articles and books. I like this particular report because it boils everything down to the basics and was written by the study's author, Evan Marshall. There have been scores of critics with regard to how the data of this study has been interpreted and used, but the raw data has never been proven to be anything but solid. The study is more than a decade old, but is still relevant, and any advancements in bullet or propellant technologies have benefited all calibers equally.

spodwo · October 22, 2009, 06:41 AM

I just looked at that report done in 1997....

From a statistical standpoint - the % of "stoppage" is at issue for the primary reason that "%" numbers can be totally misleading.

The .40 cal stoppage is based on 42 total incidents with "stops" occurring on 32 incidents. That number is certainly NOT a lot of incidents and in statistics - that would lead to a margin of error that could likely be in excess of 10-15%. In other words - if there were 500 "incidents" recorded and analyzed - that number of "stops" could be considerably lower or potentially higher. There are SO many variables that in that data collected! In stats - sample size is pretty important plus other items that can affect results [example: how many of these shootings occurred in well lit situations, standards gun sights versus high visibility, winter versus summer, etc.]

A more recent survey added to the data would probably have more relevant data and a shift if "who is number 1".

.40 stops could be 100% if there was only one shooting and the perp got "stoppped".

Interesting none the less....

zombieslayer · October 22, 2009, 08:37 AM

Whenever I'm @ the range shooting 9mm, and switch to .40, i barely notice much recoil difference. I do have huge, strong hands though.

Madcap_Magician · October 22, 2009, 10:17 AM

Seriously? The Marshall and Sarnow reports are interesting anecdotal evidence, but suffer from a dearth of samples and some funny math, including some calibers that had more one-shot stops than they had samples of shootings in that caliber. Additionally, the percentages quoted in this thread are actually off- the quoted stop percentage for .45 ACP is actually the percentage for .45 ACP ball ammo, .45 ACP Hydra-Shoks went to 94%.

October 21, 2009, 07:32 PM	#1
BurkGlocker Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2008 Location: Sheppard AFB, TX Posts: 568	Traded my .45 for a .40... just so I could shoot the damned thing. I have not seen any .45 ammo around here for I dont know how long. So I traded my G21SF for a G22 and I couldnt be happier. Not only can I find ammo for it, but I forgot how much better the G22 fit my hand. 'Slim frame' model my rear; it definately felt like a brick, and yeah, I know, it looks like one too, but I am not here to start that argument with y'all. I sold all of my .45 today, and went right online and ordered all the 40 S&W ammo I could afford. Didnt have to beg, borrow and steal to find it, just had to choose who was cheaper and shipped faster. So, I am proud to say, I can finally buy ammunition in a caliber that I love.

October 21, 2009, 08:29 PM	#5
gglass Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 638	I have posted this info in other threads, but I thought this might bolster your decision to move to the .40 S&W... You lost nothing in "real world" ammunition performance by making the move. One of the best and most cited studies done on the subject of "stopping power" was done by Evan Marshall of the Detroit Police Department back in the 1990's. His study was compiled from data across the country using "real-world" shooting incidents. His study only collected data met this criteria: Single bullet (no multiple shots) Torso hits only (no head or appendage shots) A "stop" meant that the perp dropped within 10-feet of the shot (out of commission) The data shows that even lowly mousegun cartridge like the .380 ACP has a decent percentage for "stopping power". The percentage might not be in the near 90% range of the mighty .40 S&W, but it is still much higher than most people on this forum would be willing to give it credit. Isn't it interesting that the lowly .380 ACP Hydra-Shok JHP or Cor-Bon JHP have a higher one shot stop percentage than the .45 ACP FMJ cartridges. Have we not all seen on these very forums that people would rather carry a FMJ .45 than any small caliber cartridge. The idea being that a .45 ACP bullet does not really need to expand to be more effective than other calibers. http://www.neiassociates.org/caliber.htm If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages: .380 ACP = 62.29% .38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90% .38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60% .357 Magnum = 86.55% 9mm = 82.44% .40 S&W = 87.37% .45 ACP = 82.50% I don't know about you, but I'll take "real world" statistics over preconceived notions any day. (The notion being that the .45 ACP is somehow superior to the .40 S&W.) __________________ "...shall not be infringed." (Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions may apply. Not available in all states).

October 21, 2009, 09:24 PM	#8
FORDMAN0781 Member Join Date: April 29, 2009 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 20	http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...40-sw-fmj-ammo Very good turn around time for the ammo I ordered. __________________ NRA Member

October 21, 2009, 09:37 PM	#10
LeadFistExpress Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Location: Franktown, CO Posts: 121	I love the .40 too My experience with .45 is limited to shooting a military issue 1911 in the Army. I can't really remember much about how it shot, the recoil, etc. But I have two .40s now and I love to shoot them both. If you are happy then I think you made a good choice. Enjoy your new pistols. __________________ *There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.* Socrates

October 22, 2009, 12:23 AM	#20
gutiw Junior Member Join Date: October 20, 2009 Posts: 14	45 to 40 Not being able to get ammo sucks. 45's are super. But 40's are also great. Not sure what the muzzle energy is compared to 45 but they are both great calibers. when you have to put something down, so to speak, I'd resort to a 40 or 45 to do the job. Just on experience. happy halloween

October 21, 2009, 07:38 PM	#2
zombieslayer Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,198	I love 40s&w! If you want, you can even buy a 9mm barrel for like 90 bucks, and shoot both calibers from the G22

October 21, 2009, 07:43 PM	#3
sourdough44 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: WI Posts: 621	I think supplies are ramping up, all kinds of ammo, primers, & powder today at a shop.

October 21, 2009, 08:13 PM	#4
wvshooter Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Charleston, WV Posts: 302	I just bought a Smith 3rd generation 4046 DAO all steel semi auto in 40S&W. The gun shoots like a dream. I like 40. I've got a bunch of 45acp brass but no reloading die set in 45 and no 45 caliber weapon. What's wrong with this picture. I'm not even sure I want a 45 because of the reduced round count. Lately I've been carrying a Smith 5906 3rd generation with 15 rounds of 9mm in the mag. Nice weapon. Keep telling me it's all about shot placement so I'll feel better.

October 21, 2009, 09:07 PM	#6
BurkGlocker Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2008 Location: Sheppard AFB, TX Posts: 568	I have been a 40S&W advocate for a long time. I bought the .45 just because it was a .45, but the pistol itself didnt fit me. I wouldve bought a 1911, but the Glock gave me the round capacity that the 1911 just cannot compete with. I love the power of the .40, the ability of most weapons chambered for it to have a large magazine capacity, and the availablity of the ammo. When I went to Cabela's in Ft. Worth and Buda the other day (after a trip back from McAllen, TX), I did see .45 ammo, but it was all SD ammo, in 20 round packs. No plinking ammo to be seen. Everywhere I look, I see .40 S&W ammo all over, plinking and SD ammo. I ordered a 100 rounds each of Winchester T-Series and Federal HST in 165 grainers. When was the last time you saw either of those for .45? Its been a year since I have, except for the one time I got lucky and saw some Rangers at the gun show, but for $45 a box (yes, I bought one). I'm glad at my decision to switch back to the .40 after a 10 year hiatus from the cartridge and pistol combo, and I doubt that I will ever change back.

October 21, 2009, 09:17 PM	#7
dabigguns357 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Location: Ona,West Virginia Posts: 1,215	I agree with getting a .40 cal and i do love the caliber but in recent times i have grown to love my 357 sig as much.So where does it fit with the .40 as far as 1 shot stop percentages go. If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages: .380 ACP = 62.29% .38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90% .38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60% .357 Magnum = 86.55% 9mm = 82.44% .40 S&W = 87.37% .45 ACP = 82.50%

October 21, 2009, 09:34 PM	#9
Crapulence Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Manly Flower Mound Texas Posts: 126	I too would like to see how the SIG would compare, it's my favorite round to shoot. I did just acquire a pristine Lone wolf .40 barrel this week. I'll try and sneak out this weekend to test it and see if I am enamored with the new caliber.

October 21, 2009, 09:42 PM	#11
BurkGlocker Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2008 Location: Sheppard AFB, TX Posts: 568	Fordman: Thats where I ordered my HSTs from, and hopefully they will be here by Friday. I had to order the T-Series from M.A.H. Supplies, and I've dealt with Mike (Hotpig) for awhile now and he has always had it here quick. This was my first time ordering from Ammo To Go, but hopefully they will ship quick, because I got an e-mail back saying that it will be shipped within 3-4 days. Grrrr... But on the bright side, I have ammo on the way and cannot complain about that at all. As for the 357 Sig. That would have to be my second favorite pistol cartridge. Owned a G31 a long time ago and I loved shooting just as much as my .40, but ammo was and still can be on the expensive side, in my opinion...

October 21, 2009, 09:46 PM	#12
cavnamvet Member Join Date: February 6, 2008 Posts: 28	If you get a rail light for your G22, you may want to stick with one manufactured by Glock. Many of the non-glock rail lights have caused cycling problems with the G22.

October 21, 2009, 10:21 PM	#13
cougar gt-e Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2009 Posts: 1,003	[QUOTE]If we decipher the statistics provided by this study, we will see the following 1-shot stop percentages: .380 ACP = 62.29% .38 Special 2" barrel = 61.90% .38 Special 4" barrel = 70.60% .357 Magnum = 86.55% 9mm = 82.44% .40 S&W = 87.37% .45 ACP = 82.50% [/QUOTE Obviously you don't understand web etiquette! Bringing FACTS to a discussion is going to destroy those with an uneducated opposing view! (joke) jb

October 21, 2009, 10:32 PM	#15
GojuBrian Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Posts: 303	I've seen many people switching from .45acp for the same reason. Not only has the priced hiked, but the caliber has gone the way of the unicorn as well! I'm sure it wil start turning up more often sooner or later, but .40 is always widely availiable and less expensive. Some people have even swithed from 9mm to .40S&W

October 21, 2009, 10:34 PM	#16
GojuBrian Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Posts: 303	gglass, Thankyou for that excellent and informative post!

October 21, 2009, 10:41 PM	#17
rsxr22 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Youngstown, OH Posts: 1,825	congrats! The G22 is a great gun!

October 21, 2009, 11:30 PM	#18
DasFriek Junior member Join Date: May 20, 2009 Posts: 891	I can find ammo of any type locally at the right places.But if i owned a .40 i could buy that crap all day long at the first closest store i stopped at. I hit 5 stores today for 9mm and WalMart had 1 box,and Dicks had a few but for more than i wanted to pay.Dicks had .45 also but at $20 a box which seems the going rate at all stores locally.That is if you can find it,its getting scarce also. Anyhow i just put a PPS 9 in layaway for cheap range duty and ccw,but it looks like CCW duty is all it will see until this clears up. Something tells me that Detonics Combat Master im wanting next may be replaced by a .40

October 22, 2009, 12:07 AM	#19
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	No objections here. I love the .40S&W round. In many ways I even prefer it over my .45acp pistols. Hard hitting round in a smaller platform with room for more rounds.

October 22, 2009, 06:41 AM	#23
spodwo Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 839	I just looked at that report done in 1997.... From a statistical standpoint - the % of "stoppage" is at issue for the primary reason that "%" numbers can be totally misleading. The .40 cal stoppage is based on 42 total incidents with "stops" occurring on 32 incidents. That number is certainly NOT a lot of incidents and in statistics - that would lead to a margin of error that could likely be in excess of 10-15%. In other words - if there were 500 "incidents" recorded and analyzed - that number of "stops" could be considerably lower or potentially higher. There are SO many variables that in that data collected! In stats - sample size is pretty important plus other items that can affect results [example: how many of these shootings occurred in well lit situations, standards gun sights versus high visibility, winter versus summer, etc.] A more recent survey added to the data would probably have more relevant data and a shift if "who is number 1". .40 stops could be 100% if there was only one shooting and the perp got "stoppped". Interesting none the less.... Last edited by spodwo; October 22, 2009 at 10:04 AM.

October 22, 2009, 08:37 AM	#24
zombieslayer Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,198	Whenever I'm @ the range shooting 9mm, and switch to .40, i barely notice much recoil difference. I do have huge, strong hands though.

October 22, 2009, 10:17 AM	#25
Madcap_Magician Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2009 Location: MN Posts: 668	Seriously? The Marshall and Sarnow reports are interesting anecdotal evidence, but suffer from a dearth of samples and some funny math, including some calibers that had more one-shot stops than they had samples of shootings in that caliber. Additionally, the percentages quoted in this thread are actually off- the quoted stop percentage for .45 ACP is actually the percentage for .45 ACP ball ammo, .45 ACP Hydra-Shoks went to 94%.