.38 special 200 grain bullet 1000-1200 ft per second - Page 2

Doug.38PR · February 2, 2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Liability law has changed drastically in this country over the decades.

What once would have gotten a defendant laughed out of court for being a complete and total dumb ass, such as the jerk who is suing IPOD because no one warned him that listening to loud music could damage his hearing.

At one time in this country it was expected that people would have a modicum of common sense, and if they didn't, the fault was theirs.

Case in point. Winchester use to put out a line of Hi Speed ammo in .45-70, .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40, mainly for the 1886 and 1892 Winchester lever actions. Hi Speed was just another way of saying pressures far beyond what a Colt Single Action Army 1st Gen. or an 1873 Winchester would take.

Boxes had BIG warnings on them, DON'T USE IN OLD GUNS and the like.

Well, some people did, their guns were destroyed, and they just slunk away muttering to themselves "I'm the sorriest dumbass on the face of the earth."

Today, though, the response would be a mult-million dollar lawsuit with the stupid bastard who blew up his gun whining about how the company's negligence resulted in the loss of a precious family heirloom.

It's all part of the [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] of America, and if you watched Tim Kaine's Democratic Response to the State of the Union Address, you'll know that the Democrats are the party that loves to protect dumbass Americans from the big, bad corporate evildoers.
__________________
In my mind's eye, Mike Irwin sits...in a dark room, chain-smoking unfiltered camels and drinking a neat bourbon...while muttering about the eTards and chortling at some particularly inventive bit of vitriol. -- Justin, APS

IC your point. Very true. Forget lawsuits then. I still have my eyebrows raised at the notion that reputable gun expert and adviser would flippantly give advice as fact that he had not tried and firmly proven to himself and others that otherwise could potentially blow someone's hand off. A company putting an obvious lable on a box saying "do not do this" and some fool doing it anyway and getting upset at themselves (rightly so) is a far cry from someone saying "this is the best thing to do and is an effective tactic" and have it blow your gun up or worse, your hand off. Seems to me Mr. Gaylord's reputation would have suffered heavily at the release of such dangerous advice.

**Mike Irwin** · February 2, 2006, 11:08 PM

Look, I don't know what the man's motivation was.

I do know, however, what the capabilities of Unique are, and as others have mentioned here, it is simply NOT capable of doing what Gaylord claims to be able to do with it.

I'm sitting here with 4 loading manuals from Gaylord's time...

Lyman 43 - 1964

Speer 3 - 1959

Speer 6 - 1964

Speer 7 - 1966/67

NOTE! The loading data I'm about to quote is quite old. Use at your OWN peril!

Lyman 43
.38 Special, 200 gr. cast flat point bullet

Bullseye Max 2.7 gr., 720 fps.
SP230 (no longer available) - Max. 2.5 gr., 700 fps.
No. 6 (no longer availabe) - Max 2.8 gr., 705 fps.
5066 (may be available) - Max 3.0, 710 fps.
Unique - Max 4.0, 681 fps.

In .357 Magnum, with its much stronger case, and much greater case room, the maximum load was 5.5 grains for 900 fps.

None of the Speer manuals show data for a 200 gr. bullet in .38 Special. The heaviest is 160 grains., using 5.5 grains of Unique, for a muzzle velocity of 938 fps.

10.5 grains of 2400, a much slower burning powder, only gives a velocity of 1020 fps.

The closest we can get to 1000 fps with a 160-gr. bullet and Unique is in the Speer 7 and the 160-gr. jacketed bullet.

5.5 grains of Unique gives a muzzle velocity of 1010 fps., with a noted pressure of 17,000 CUP, or damned close to the absolute maximum for the cartridge.

Drive that bullet weight up to 200 grs., and keep that 5.5 grains of Unique, and you would very likely have pressures pushing past the 30,000 CUP mark, or well in excess of ANY .38 Spl. loading at any time.

I don't know whether Gaylord's reputation would have suffered much, if at all, had he published what essentially was unobtainable data. Men like Elmer Keith had been pushing those boundaries for years at that point.

impact · February 2, 2006, 11:53 PM

WOW! 1000 to 1200fps with a 200gr bullet in a 38! Not me!

Oh do you want this out of a snub nose!

I'm just being silly! I shot some really hot 38s with a 158gr bullet that would not make 1000fps in a six inch gun.

Maybe! just maybe! you can get 1000fps with a 38 and 158gr bullet in a RIFLE. But 200gr is really pushing it.

Johnny Guest · February 3, 2006, 01:01 AM

It was pretty much what I recalled in the dim recesses of my memory. All my very old manuals are packed away.

I only recall one extra stout .38 Spl load from that era. It involved a 160 LSWC and 'way too much 2400 over magnum primers in once fired .38 Spl cases. I loaded up 100, sighted in my old Colt Three-Fifty-Seven, and killed a small buck with it. It would have been okay in an Official Police, I guess, but it was simply a stunt in a .357 chambered revolver. Magnum cases were NOT difficult to locate, and I lived in terror that I'd let one of the heavy loads go astray, to find it's way into someone's Chief's Special. Happily, I'd tagged the cases with a china marker, so I was able to dispose of all of them properly.

Best,
Johnny

kojak · February 3, 2006, 04:41 AM

"Maybe! just maybe! you can get 1000fps with a 38 and 158gr bullet in a RIFLE. But 200gr is really pushing it."

It is possible in a revolver. I have data for CIP countries (pressure limit is 500 psi or so above SAAMI +P), 200 gr lead bullet at 290 m/s or 950 fps. Test barrel unvented 16cm (=6.3"). Remember that a test barrel has the chamber in the barrel, so the comparative length ina real world revolver would be 4" (cylinder is 2" long) with 8% to 10% less velocity because of the barrel gap.

Pressure is 1100 bar = 15666 psi, max pressure in cip countries is 1600 bar or 22700 psi.
Out of the 4" revolver velocity should be 865 fps, if maxed out at 22700 psi you should have 30% or so more energy and perhaps 15% more speed. 1000 fps are possible, even within +P pressure levels.

1200 fps out of 6" could be possible. .38 special is a very potent round with progressive powders and heavy lead bullets.

However, why should you do that?
1. more recoil for light weapons
2. more powder residue, unclean burning
3. possible maximum pressure after the bullet has left the cylinder and the barrel gap is open!

So, yes, it might be possible, but why should one do that? Instead just buy a .357 and be happy. .38 special at about 300 ft-lbs (158gr) and out of a M15 is a very good combination.

Archie · February 3, 2006, 01:49 PM

Chic Gaylord was a very good holster maker of the 1950s and early '60s.

As a practical shooter or ballistics researcher, Chic Gaylord was a very good holster maker of the 1950s and early '60s.

200 grain bullets have been used in the .38 Special and the .38 Smith & Wesson for years. However, within the allowed pressure, about 700 f/s is all they will do. With a modern gun and slow powders, one could probably press the limits and get maybe 800-850 f/s without undue strain and premature wear on the revolver. I do NOT recomend it.

Doug, after you've finished the Gaylord book, read Sixguns by Keith, The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning by Cooper and No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan. Also read Secrets of Double Action Shooting by Bob Nichols if you can find it. Those books should counteract the nonsense Gaylord spouts.

45-70 · February 3, 2006, 09:36 PM

That's a good load alright, but if you like it, get yourself a .41 mag.

FirstFreedom · February 4, 2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Also, surely there is someone out there who has actually tried this as the article has been around for 45 years

I'm sure they did too. But take note that they're not around to tell us about it. Very very bad idea.

Yuriens · February 4, 2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:
Also, surely there is someone out there who has actually tried this as the article has been around for 45 years

Yes, they tried it, but it's hard to surf the internet without hands.

Mike

Jim Watson · February 4, 2006, 04:36 PM

Jerry Miculek reportedly shot 200 grain bullets from .38 Special brass at such velocity for bowling pin matches. He needed the shorter brass to get OAL in the cylinder of his Model 27, which is no longer than a Special's. I doubt they were loaded with Unique but cannot find actual data. I'd like to see Kojak's.

DerDer · February 4, 2006, 05:19 PM

A buddy of mine measured the fps of a customade 180 gr. .38 special and got it up to about 496 fps in a snub (Not +p). I would imagine a 200 gr. would get about 390-410 fps based on a few calculations.

A bullet at this speed could bounce off a car door or windshield depending on the angle and distance. Loaded backwards this bullet could flip and land lengthwise against the target providing a huge wound channel.

Handloading and revolvers go together like peaches and cream. A huge assortment of options and weights are available for the perfect cartridge. I think my next load will be a 158 wadcuter.

1tomcat · February 5, 2006, 11:31 AM

I wouldnt shoot that one in my model 10

Peter M. Eick · February 5, 2006, 12:20 PM

Why do I foresee the destruction of a perfectly good 38/44 or 27/28 about to occur?

200 at 1200 is in the 10mm range. I have done it with my 610, but out of a 38 special? Not hardly.

Could it be done? Probably with bullseye or 231, a barrel drilled out of a freight train engine axle and a breech block that is would be more appropriate on the ship "Iowa".

Where is Clark when you need him?

WESHOOT2 · February 5, 2006, 12:32 PM

No, he's around (sent me a list of forums he visits).

I can get 200g @ 1200+ from my 357 Redhawk, but why would I want to?
I have other chamberings for that.

I can get my car to go 300mph if I drop it outta an airplane.

knzn · February 5, 2006, 12:52 PM

"230gn WC @1000fps, I'll wager 10s of thousands of a similiar load were fired at 2nd Chance Pin Shooting."

"I doubt they were loaded with Unique but cannot find actual data."

I was big into pin shooting back in its glory days too. Never made it to Second Chance, but did go to Waterloo Iowa and KC a time or two.

Everyone I new and met shooting the 230's used Blue Dot. Most stopped around 1000 fps or so. I know my cases never showed a flat primer, and I peeked at everyones empty I could find. Never saw a pressure sign. FWIW.

Edited to add,

I am not saying what we did was smart, safe, on the edge of destruction or anything like that. But like Ultima-Ratio said, there were indeed thousands upon thousands of rounds fired.

mtnbkr · February 5, 2006, 01:23 PM

I have a load using the 230gr WC and Unique, but it's loaded in a 357mag case, fired from a GP100 and only delivers 950fps. I could probably jack it up a bit, but I see no need.

Chris

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2006, 03:05 PM

KNZN,

.38 Spl. case or .357 Magnum case?

What gun?

What barrel length?

knzn · February 5, 2006, 03:22 PM

"KNZN,
.38 Spl. case or .357 Magnum case?
What gun?
What barrel length?"

38 Spl. cases to keep OAL inside the cylinders.

Most used model 27's, some used 686's.

6" and 8 3/8 inch barrels the norm. Dont remeber which had the edge in numbers. There was a place in NY that would convert your 6 shot S&W into a 7 shooter. The serious guys had that done. It was called "Bauminizing" (sp?) or something like that. One of their conversions was the give away gun one month in the American Handgunner Mag.

One of the Revo guys was Mike Carmony. Great guy, wonder what happend to him. He wrote articles in a publication geared to pin shooting, and came out in the form of a small new paper. I think I still have some copys out in the barn. Good chance there is articles(s) discussing loads for the 230 gr .38's. I will look when I get off here.

By the way. Recoil was totally acceptable with these rounds, as pin shooting does require rapid recoil recovery.

ISP2605 · February 5, 2006, 03:30 PM

Since Blue Dot is a bit slower than Unique you wouldn't get the pressure to get the same results as with Unique.
Still haven't seen anyone claiming to get 1200 fps using Unique, or even wanting to try it.

knzn · February 5, 2006, 04:05 PM

I used to subscribe to a publication called "Practical Shooting International." This thread inspired me to go out to the barn and I managed to find one of my surviving copys.

In the copy I found there is an article about the guns and loads of Second Chance. Again, this is simply a FWIW--

One of the featured guys in the article, Rod Purvis used 2400 with his 230 grainers. Doesnt say if he used .38 sp or .357 brass, but I am thinking .38 brass was the only way to go with those big chunks of lead to keep the OAL inside the cylinders.

As a side note, this publications "Senior Editor at Large" was Walt Rauch. Wonder what ever happened to him?

Ben Shepherd · February 6, 2006, 08:43 PM

WESHOOT2: Ditto.

**Mike Irwin** · February 7, 2006, 01:19 AM

"Doesnt say if he used .38 sp or .357 brass, but I am thinking .38 brass was the only way to go with those big chunks of lead to keep the OAL inside the cylinders."

I'm thinking slightly different.

.357 brass cut back to .38 length.

mtnbkr · February 7, 2006, 07:06 AM

I'm loading those bullets in standard 357mag brass. I seat down to the crimp cannelure. They're no longer than standard 357mag cartridges, but you don't get much room for powder.

Mike, you've shot some of these before.

Chris

mec · February 11, 2006, 02:01 PM

Corbon loads them pretty hot in .357. Theyre the only corbon .357 loads that cause sticky extraction in my Rugers.

kojak · February 14, 2006, 04:18 PM

ok, here's the load. It's from "DEVA Wiederladen", 4th edition. CIP standards are used, pressure testing is done with copper (cup) as far as I know. Test barrel 16cm (6.3", not vented, remember that test barrel lengths are inclusive of the chamber contrary to revolver barrel length).

Primer: CCI 550
Case: Geco (RWS)
Powder: Vihtavuori N110, 7.5 gr.
Bullet: RK357200 H&N 200 grain (round nose bullet, .357 diameter, copper plated)
OAL: 39 mm (1.535")
speed: 290 m/s (950 fps)
pressure: 1100bar (15650 cup)

Remember, if something goes wrong one should better have used a published load. I have the book. You probably not. Then you have to do some tricks to get the speed. .357 bullet. Copper plated bullet. Extremely slow powder. Magnum primer. Yes, pressure is within the limit (cip, don't know the SAAMI cup limit for .38 special, but should be within SAAMI limits, too), but such loads will put more wear on the gun nonetheless.

I think it's just not worth the trouble.

February 2, 2006, 11:08 PM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Look, I don't know what the man's motivation was. I do know, however, what the capabilities of Unique are, and as others have mentioned here, it is simply NOT capable of doing what Gaylord claims to be able to do with it. I'm sitting here with 4 loading manuals from Gaylord's time... Lyman 43 - 1964 Speer 3 - 1959 Speer 6 - 1964 Speer 7 - 1966/67 NOTE! The loading data I'm about to quote is quite old. Use at your OWN peril! Lyman 43 .38 Special, 200 gr. cast flat point bullet Bullseye Max 2.7 gr., 720 fps. SP230 (no longer available) - Max. 2.5 gr., 700 fps. No. 6 (no longer availabe) - Max 2.8 gr., 705 fps. 5066 (may be available) - Max 3.0, 710 fps. Unique - Max 4.0, 681 fps. In .357 Magnum, with its much stronger case, and much greater case room, the maximum load was 5.5 grains for 900 fps. None of the Speer manuals show data for a 200 gr. bullet in .38 Special. The heaviest is 160 grains., using 5.5 grains of Unique, for a muzzle velocity of 938 fps. 10.5 grains of 2400, a much slower burning powder, only gives a velocity of 1020 fps. The closest we can get to 1000 fps with a 160-gr. bullet and Unique is in the Speer 7 and the 160-gr. jacketed bullet. 5.5 grains of Unique gives a muzzle velocity of 1010 fps., with a noted pressure of 17,000 CUP, or damned close to the absolute maximum for the cartridge. Drive that bullet weight up to 200 grs., and keep that 5.5 grains of Unique, and you would very likely have pressures pushing past the 30,000 CUP mark, or well in excess of ANY .38 Spl. loading at any time. I don't know whether Gaylord's reputation would have suffered much, if at all, had he published what essentially was unobtainable data. Men like Elmer Keith had been pushing those boundaries for years at that point. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 3, 2006, 01:01 AM	#29
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Thanks for finding that stuff, Mike It was pretty much what I recalled in the dim recesses of my memory. All my very old manuals are packed away. I only recall one extra stout .38 Spl load from that era. It involved a 160 LSWC and 'way too much 2400 over magnum primers in once fired .38 Spl cases. I loaded up 100, sighted in my old Colt Three-Fifty-Seven, and killed a small buck with it. It would have been okay in an Official Police, I guess, but it was simply a stunt in a .357 chambered revolver. Magnum cases were NOT difficult to locate, and I lived in terror that I'd let one of the heavy loads go astray, to find it's way into someone's Chief's Special. Happily, I'd tagged the cases with a china marker, so I was able to dispose of all of them properly. Best, Johnny

February 3, 2006, 01:49 PM	#31
Archie Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2000 Location: Hastings, Nebrasksa - the Hear Posts: 2,209	Guys.... Once Again.... Chic Gaylord was a very good holster maker of the 1950s and early '60s. As a practical shooter or ballistics researcher, *Chic Gaylord was a very good holster maker* of the 1950s and early '60s.** 200 grain bullets have been used in the .38 Special and the .38 Smith & Wesson for years. However, within the allowed pressure, about 700 f/s is all they will do. With a modern gun and slow powders, one could probably press the limits and get maybe 800-850 f/s without undue strain and premature wear on the revolver. I do NOT recomend it. Doug, after you've finished the Gaylord book, read Sixguns by Keith, The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning by Cooper and No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan. Also read Secrets of Double Action Shooting by Bob Nichols if you can find it. Those books should counteract the nonsense Gaylord spouts. __________________ There ain't no free lunch, except Jesus. Archie Check out updated journal at http://oldmanmontgomery.wordpress.com/

February 3, 2006, 09:36 PM	#32
45-70 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2005 Location: Dallas TX area Posts: 310	200 gr lead bullet @ 1000fps? That's a good load alright, but if you like it, get yourself a .41 mag.

February 5, 2006, 11:31 AM	#37
1tomcat Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2005 Posts: 147	hot 38 I wouldnt shoot that one in my model 10

February 2, 2006, 11:53 PM	#28
impact Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: the great state of Texas Posts: 854	WOW! 1000 to 1200fps with a 200gr bullet in a 38! Not me! Oh do you want this out of a snub nose! I'm just being silly! I shot some really hot 38s with a 158gr bullet that would not make 1000fps in a six inch gun. Maybe! just maybe! you can get 1000fps with a 38 and 158gr bullet in a RIFLE. But 200gr is really pushing it.

February 3, 2006, 04:41 AM	#30
kojak Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Posts: 98	"Maybe! just maybe! you can get 1000fps with a 38 and 158gr bullet in a RIFLE. But 200gr is really pushing it." It is possible in a revolver. I have data for CIP countries (pressure limit is 500 psi or so above SAAMI +P), 200 gr lead bullet at 290 m/s or 950 fps. Test barrel unvented 16cm (=6.3"). Remember that a test barrel has the chamber in the barrel, so the comparative length ina real world revolver would be 4" (cylinder is 2" long) with 8% to 10% less velocity because of the barrel gap. Pressure is 1100 bar = 15666 psi, max pressure in cip countries is 1600 bar or 22700 psi. Out of the 4" revolver velocity should be 865 fps, if maxed out at 22700 psi you should have 30% or so more energy and perhaps 15% more speed. 1000 fps are possible, even within +P pressure levels. 1200 fps out of 6" could be possible. .38 special is a very potent round with progressive powders and heavy lead bullets. However, why should you do that? 1. more recoil for light weapons 2. more powder residue, unclean burning 3. possible maximum pressure after the bullet has left the cylinder and the barrel gap is open! So, yes, it might be possible, but why should one do that? Instead just buy a .357 and be happy. .38 special at about 300 ft-lbs (158gr) and out of a M15 is a very good combination.

February 4, 2006, 04:05 PM	#34
Yuriens Member Join Date: February 1, 2006 Posts: 71	Quote: Also, surely there is someone out there who has actually tried this as the article has been around for 45 years Yes, they tried it, but it's hard to surf the internet without hands. Mike

February 4, 2006, 04:36 PM	#35
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,548	Jerry Miculek reportedly shot 200 grain bullets from .38 Special brass at such velocity for bowling pin matches. He needed the shorter brass to get OAL in the cylinder of his Model 27, which is no longer than a Special's. I doubt they were loaded with Unique but cannot find actual data. I'd like to see Kojak's.

February 4, 2006, 05:19 PM	#36
DerDer Registration in progress Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 56	A buddy of mine measured the fps of a customade 180 gr. .38 special and got it up to about 496 fps in a snub (Not +p). I would imagine a 200 gr. would get about 390-410 fps based on a few calculations. A bullet at this speed could bounce off a car door or windshield depending on the angle and distance. Loaded backwards this bullet could flip and land lengthwise against the target providing a huge wound channel. Handloading and revolvers go together like peaches and cream. A huge assortment of options and weights are available for the perfect cartridge. I think my next load will be a 158 wadcuter.

February 5, 2006, 12:20 PM	#38
Peter M. Eick Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 1999 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,991	Why do I foresee the destruction of a perfectly good 38/44 or 27/28 about to occur? 200 at 1200 is in the 10mm range. I have done it with my 610, but out of a 38 special? Not hardly. Could it be done? Probably with bullseye or 231, a barrel drilled out of a freight train engine axle and a breech block that is would be more appropriate on the ship "Iowa". Where is Clark when you need him? __________________ 10mm and 357sig, the best things to come along since the 38 super!

February 5, 2006, 12:32 PM	#39
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Clark got blowed up? No, he's around (sent me a list of forums he visits). I can get 200g @ 1200+ from my 357 Redhawk, but why would I want to? I have other chamberings for that. I can get my car to go 300mph if I drop it outta an airplane. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" Last edited by WESHOOT2; February 5, 2006 at 12:33 PM. Reason: I don't actually KNOW I can get 1200 from oneamy 357 Redhawks, but I BET I could

February 5, 2006, 12:52 PM	#40
knzn Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2001 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 125	"230gn WC @1000fps, I'll wager 10s of thousands of a similiar load were fired at 2nd Chance Pin Shooting." "I doubt they were loaded with Unique but cannot find actual data." I was big into pin shooting back in its glory days too. Never made it to Second Chance, but did go to Waterloo Iowa and KC a time or two. Everyone I new and met shooting the 230's used Blue Dot. Most stopped around 1000 fps or so. I know my cases never showed a flat primer, and I peeked at everyones empty I could find. Never saw a pressure sign. FWIW. Edited to add, I am not saying what we did was smart, safe, on the edge of destruction or anything like that. But like Ultima-Ratio said, there were indeed thousands upon thousands of rounds fired. __________________ knzn=kansan "For he was a man of propper wit, and the ghosty tails of the tall hills didn't scare him none."

February 5, 2006, 01:23 PM	#41
mtnbkr Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2000 Location: Manassas, Virginia Posts: 914	I have a load using the 230gr WC and Unique, but it's loaded in a 357mag case, fired from a GP100 and only delivers 950fps. I could probably jack it up a bit, but I see no need. Chris

February 5, 2006, 03:05 PM	#42
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	KNZN, .38 Spl. case or .357 Magnum case? What gun? What barrel length? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 5, 2006, 03:22 PM	#43
knzn Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2001 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 125	"KNZN, .38 Spl. case or .357 Magnum case? What gun? What barrel length?" 38 Spl. cases to keep OAL inside the cylinders. Most used model 27's, some used 686's. 6" and 8 3/8 inch barrels the norm. Dont remeber which had the edge in numbers. There was a place in NY that would convert your 6 shot S&W into a 7 shooter. The serious guys had that done. It was called "Bauminizing" (sp?) or something like that. One of their conversions was the give away gun one month in the American Handgunner Mag. One of the Revo guys was Mike Carmony. Great guy, wonder what happend to him. He wrote articles in a publication geared to pin shooting, and came out in the form of a small new paper. I think I still have some copys out in the barn. Good chance there is articles(s) discussing loads for the 230 gr .38's. I will look when I get off here. By the way. Recoil was totally acceptable with these rounds, as pin shooting does require rapid recoil recovery. __________________ knzn=kansan "For he was a man of propper wit, and the ghosty tails of the tall hills didn't scare him none."

February 5, 2006, 03:30 PM	#44
ISP2605 Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Posts: 954	Since Blue Dot is a bit slower than Unique you wouldn't get the pressure to get the same results as with Unique. Still haven't seen anyone claiming to get 1200 fps using Unique, or even wanting to try it.

February 5, 2006, 04:05 PM	#45
knzn Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2001 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 125	I used to subscribe to a publication called "Practical Shooting International." This thread inspired me to go out to the barn and I managed to find one of my surviving copys. In the copy I found there is an article about the guns and loads of Second Chance. Again, this is simply a FWIW-- One of the featured guys in the article, Rod Purvis used 2400 with his 230 grainers. Doesnt say if he used .38 sp or .357 brass, but I am thinking .38 brass was the only way to go with those big chunks of lead to keep the OAL inside the cylinders. As a side note, this publications "Senior Editor at Large" was Walt Rauch. Wonder what ever happened to him? __________________ knzn=kansan "For he was a man of propper wit, and the ghosty tails of the tall hills didn't scare him none."

February 6, 2006, 08:43 PM	#46
Ben Shepherd Senior Member Join Date: August 11, 2001 Location: Utah Posts: 1,462	WESHOOT2: Ditto. __________________ From my cold dead hands......... NRA certified rifle, pistol and shotgun instructor. Hunter education instructor

February 7, 2006, 01:19 AM	#47
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"Doesnt say if he used .38 sp or .357 brass, but I am thinking .38 brass was the only way to go with those big chunks of lead to keep the OAL inside the cylinders." I'm thinking slightly different. .357 brass cut back to .38 length. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 7, 2006, 07:06 AM	#48
mtnbkr Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2000 Location: Manassas, Virginia Posts: 914	I'm loading those bullets in standard 357mag brass. I seat down to the crimp cannelure. They're no longer than standard 357mag cartridges, but you don't get much room for powder. Mike, you've shot some of these before. Chris

February 11, 2006, 02:01 PM	#49
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Corbon loads them pretty hot in .357. Theyre the only corbon .357 loads that cause sticky extraction in my Rugers.

February 14, 2006, 04:18 PM	#50
kojak Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Posts: 98	ok, here's the load. It's from "DEVA Wiederladen", 4th edition. CIP standards are used, pressure testing is done with copper (cup) as far as I know. Test barrel 16cm (6.3", not vented, remember that test barrel lengths are inclusive of the chamber contrary to revolver barrel length). Primer: CCI 550 Case: Geco (RWS) Powder: Vihtavuori N110, 7.5 gr. Bullet: RK357200 H&N 200 grain (round nose bullet, .357 diameter, copper plated) OAL: 39 mm (1.535") speed: 290 m/s (950 fps) pressure: 1100bar (15650 cup) Remember, if something goes wrong one should better have used a published load. I have the book. You probably not. Then you have to do some tricks to get the speed. .357 bullet. Copper plated bullet. Extremely slow powder. Magnum primer. Yes, pressure is within the limit (cip, don't know the SAAMI cup limit for .38 special, but should be within SAAMI limits, too), but such loads will put more wear on the gun nonetheless. I think it's just not worth the trouble.