S&W Feminazis

[Westicle]

Here is a discouraging thing I am seeing here on the Firing line and THE Main reason I don't surf here much Anymore.

you people talk about your absouloute right of the Second Amendment and you speak of your Right to speak whatever you want to by the First Amendment.

Why do you people attack posters that Ask Questions about S&W handguns or Post that they just Bought a S&W Handgun ?? , do you not respect thier First Amendment Rights ?

The point I am trying to make is do not roast someone for buying a Gun.... even if you disagree with thier choice of Firearm. either go into that thread and Say "Nice Gun, have fun shooting it" or don't say anything(Politics shouldn't be brought into a My S&W is the greatest thing sine cinnamon spread). They are still supporting the SHOOTING industry, Just not in a way you CHOOSE.... Choice is the Greatest Thing in the free World, it is a right of most 1st world Countries, so don't roast someone for thier Choice of Firearms.

A firearm is a very Personal thing and any gun bought supports American Workers and the Gun Industry in general.

[Libertarian]

Westicle, You're right. But it is only some of us. I get the same treatment at MS. and a few other non-gun boards when I tread into touchy territory.

Personally (as my nick hints) I value the freedoms and rights of all people. Even the ones I personally find abhorent. The old saying "I may not agree with what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" is clearly overlooked, forgotten or just never learned by way too many people these days. We have so many folks so strident in the fight for their own personal freedoms who are only too willing to deny those same rights and freedoms to others. (re: WoD, abortion, flag burning, etc...)

There are some people who I will not bother to address here and on many other boards simply because I can not tolerate their hypocrisy. I choose to ignore them. I hope you stick around and help those many of us here who are truely open minded and keep this board on the high road.

[Elizabeth Petersen]

Westicle

Those members who blast other members for their views/use/purchase of S&W products are not making an attempt to limit their first amendment rights. They are simply exercising their own first amendment rights to disagree and debate.

The absolutely beauty of the first amendment is not only do you have a right to express your view, but I have an equal right to express mine. And sometimes, those views conflict.

Discussion and debate are part of this forum. Yes, there are times when it gets very heated, and attacks do happen. We each have our beliefs, which we hold dearly and defend passionately.

And may I ask why you chose to call those of us who support the ban as "S&W Feminazis"? I don't see the connection.

[Gunslinger]

Beth said it very well.
I am one of the people you are referring to when you mention those that post their opposition to perons purchasing Smith & Wesson products. However, in none of my post have I ever resorted to childish name calling such as you did in your topic heading. I submit you are the one that needs to look to your own posting habits rather than criticize others.

[Westicle]

I was reading the post of the guy who just bought a S&W 945 he was wondering if anyone else Owns one, it was civil for 1 or 2 replies and then the Attack began...... he did not ask for peoples political Feelings on his purchase nor did he say he was for or against the "ban"

I am scared to post that I own several S&W's on this sight, could you imagine the uproar if I changed my sig Line to PROUD TO SUPPORT S&W

My point to starting this whole post is to tell people that I don't Care if you are or are not Banning S&W...... I don't shove my "religion" down your throat so why try to shove your's down someone else's.

I feel that you guys on this board are persecuting the S&W buyers like someone did to a religious group during world war 2. you have an Opinion and I do Respect that...... Please respect the opinion of the S&W buyers by not forcing them to leave this fine board.

Elizabeth, I am sorry for the Use of the word "feminazis" but after reading some of the replies that people where putting saying Joe Public is a wiener for buying S&W they Started to sound like a Bunch of whining Kids.... I chose that word wrongly.

[Westicle]

Gunslinger....

I started this topic with the intent of being flamed, and I think I have a right to hash this out.

If I started a Topic that said I love my S&W 617-1 and would like opinions on how other people like thier's I would not expect someone to call me an idiot for buying S&W..... but that seems to be the rule here, anytime a S&W product is mentioned people do not offer Praise or even constructive words, they just ostracize the person and treat as less then human.

[Gunslinger]

I presently have 53 Smith & Wesson in my collection and am not hesitant to say that. They are all Smith's that were either purchased before the agreement or used.

You started a topic expecting to be flamed and deliberately used a term to incur that?
I believe the word used for that in Internet circles is troll.

[croyance]

Ditto what Elizabeth Petersen said.

The use of "Femnazi" seems to be the very thing you are so against.

While I think that a certain amount of flaming lacks class, it is a free speach right. That applies to all parts of life and not just forums. If I do not want uninvited opinions, not broadcasting my opinion/hobby/proclivity/etc. is they route I choose. Debate and dissent are at the roots of this country's founding.

You do have the "right to hash this out", but we have the right to comment on the methods you choose.

My opinion is that you are overly sensitive and that you not so subtlely bait people.

[Westicle]

Yeah Right.... I have bought 3 NEW S&W's in the past year, I osted about that in here once and it turned into a flame war, the moderator deleted the post.

My Point is why flame a person for buying a gun they obviously like, just becaue his gun isn't politically correct in YOUR WORLD doesn't give you the right to call him/her a turncoat and compare him with benedict arnold.

You have to respect the rights of everyone, not the people you think have rights but EVERYONE. I have a right to buy any gun I choose..... be it Norinco (CHINESE) or S&W..... or hell even para-ordanance (made in a country with crappy gun laws). That is my Right as a free person.

Do you go down the streets and call black people the "N" word ??? that is your right too..... do you exercise that right or do you censor ypur self ?

Thats all I want to see on this board, let people buy what they want..... and don't nail them to a cross because it is not something you would buy. Gun Owners need to get together, otherwise you will end up like Canada where the hunters don't care about handguns and you WILL lose some of your freedom to own them.

[griz]

As E P pointed out so well, nobody is saying you shouldn’t be allowed to say anything, they are just disagreeing with what you said. Many threads mention ownership of S&W’s and it doesn’t turn into an issue. I will say that of all the threads you seem to be talking about, most start either as “I want to buy an S&W, what do you think” or “I just bought an S&W and I got such a deal you can forget about the boycott”. Both are inviting S&W comments, and the former has drawn more polite responses. Frankly it sounds like you want to say we should support S&W but don’t want anybody to disagree.

[AR-10]

Westicle,

Smith & Wesson is already trying to limit my freedom. That is one of the reasons this topic upsets me so much. People who have no qualms about supporting a company that is actively trying to step on my rights and bully every gunshop in the U.S. are another reason it upsets me.

Other than you calling people like me a Feminazi, I don't really feel you are talking about me in your posts. I usually wait for someone to say something to the effect that they're going to buy a new Smith whether "we" like it or not before voicing my opinion on the subject. I look at that as an opportunity to raise the awareness of some lurker who may be uninformed. griz points this out, and I think the large majority of posters have no desire to get in some guy's face for saying that he just shot his new Super-blammo and it was lots of fun.

I won't waste my time telling you all the things about S&W that you already know. I'll just say that it disturbs me that a Canadian who suffers under more gun control laws than I do is telling me that I should tolerate what S&W does in silence so that your conscience will be clear about buying that next Smith.

[croyance]

When the subject come up, I also don't care for teeny-bopper bands, NASCAR, WWF, and front wheel drive only pick-up trucks. However, I don't do after people who like these things, they have a right to enjoy those things. If they bring the subject up with me, I may let them know their opinions. By posting on a forum, you are airing your views, however unintentionally, and inviting response.

I haven't done a search on your other posts, however, this post was worded to bring out the most negative responces. I am happy to see that responces have been reasoned.

As I believe Voltaire said "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

By the way, I am also eyeing up some S&W revolvers, mostly the 686. I haven't gotten beyond that point though. My dislike of what they have done holds me back.

Again, you deny the role of disagreement and debate in life. People may not express themselves a way you agree with, but in the end, they are trying to make a point. If you think these posts are unreasonable, check out the early debates prior to the founding of the U.S.A. In the newspapers, in letters, in public debates, our founding fathers were not always polite.

Searching for truth (I am not claiming that you are trying to do this) requires hearing things that make us uncomfortable.

[C.R.Sam]

"They are still supporting the SHOOTING industry, Just not in a way you CHOOSE...."

Wrong.......By contracting with the government to dictate to the independant retailers what that retailer may stock in the way of firearms and accessories. Including all brands the dealer wishes to sell........how in the heck is that supporting the SHOOTING industry??????

Thats just a sampling of the many onerous details of the agreement....which is still in effect.

Sam....biting my tongue.

[RHC]

You wrote:

"Why do you people attack posters that Ask Questions about S&W handguns or Post that they just Bought a S&W Handgun ?? , do you not respect thier First Amendment Rights ?"

Of course I do. Saying that someone is wrong is not a violation of their First Amendment rights. The First Amendment does not give us the right to air our opinions without being verbally attacked. It only guarantees us the right to say what we want without government censorship.

Freedom brings vigorous debate. There is no right to demand that everyone agree with you or say nice things to you.

[7th Fleet]

You want to talk about 1st Amendment rights, well that's a two way street. We have the right to post here and give our oppinions on how it is counter to our 2nd Amendment rights to purchase Smith & Wesson products. I too own over 20 Smith & Wessons but they are all "PRE SELL OUT" guns and I refuse to spend my hard earned dollars with a company that is stabbing me in the back.

Like we used to say in Vietnam, "Fu(k Em and Feed Em Fish Heads".


7th

[Zander]

"Gun Owners need to get together, otherwise you will end up like Canada where the hunters don't care about handguns and you WILL lose some of your freedom to own them."

Take some sound advice and just let this go. You've been told...repeatedly...why there is an active and highly effective boycott of *&* here. Spend your Canadian dollars depleted by socialism anyway you want, but don't expect us to cut your actions any slack whatsoever.

That company and their British overlords did their best to destroy our Rights as American citizens for nothing more than a short-term financial gain. They are being punished severely for their transgressions and it's my hope that the company files for bankruptcy tomorrow.

Given your country's sorry history with gun control, I've no idea why you refuse to understand and/or accept our position and actions, but you won't.

I'm afraid that's your problem...

[Michael Priddy]

If you read the editorial by Dave Scovill in this issue of Handloader, it might show you why some of us have such strong feelings against Smith and Wesson. He shares some information about how this foreign owned company was attending meetings with the American firearms industry and taking that information to the justice department while at the same time cutting a deal with them for their own benefit. I especially like the remark about how people's money that bought Smith and Wesson products was used to pay the lawyers that were making the deals with the Clinton administration. Scovill also confirmed what some of us discussed here on this board about how certain gun magazines were printing articles with pro S&W spin to promote their products. So Westcile, buy all the Smith and Wessons you want. I will not be a party to weakening the rights of Americans to buy and own handguns.

[Mike Irwin]

I would just like to point out that no one has "First Amendment Rights" on this, a PRIVATE forum.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution dictates that the Federal Government will establish no law that abridges free speech.

This forum is a private forum; everyone here (to the best of my knowdge) is a private citizen. As such, no one has the Constitutionally protected right to say anything that they want here -- we all post here at the express whim of the owner of this service. If the owner says that every post containing the word "gun" will be deleted, that is his right as a private citizen and forum owner to do so.

That said, I would also like to point out that those of us who have chosen to express our dismay over another forum member's purchase, or expressed intent to purchase, a Smith & Wesson are expressing OUR opinions, and are engaging in active debate on this subject.

We are not attempting to pass "laws" to prevent forum members from purchasing a Smith & Wesson product if they so choose.

We are attempting to explain to that forum member the depth and breadth of the agreement that Smith & Wesson sighed with the Department of Housing and Urban Development, including the MANY provisions that can significantly impact the free trade of dealers engaging in the lawful trade of firearms (including those NOT EVEN MADE by Smith & Wesson) as well as the right of law abiding citizens to purchase these firearms.

The only Constitutional violations here are being perpetrated by Smith & Wesson and the (now thankfully gone) Clinton Administration.

You do, I think without knowing it, make a VERY salient point, and it is important that you, and all other gun owners, recognize it...

"Gun Owners need to get together, otherwise you will end up like Canada where the hunters don't care about handguns and you WILL lose some of your freedom to own them."

That's a profound statement, especially if you realize that the agreement that Smith & Wesson signed with the goverment DIRECTLY IMPACTS the ability of Americans to, once again, purchase legal firearms and related products.

So, given that, please tell me how supporting Smith & Wesson is in MY best interests as a gun owner, when to do so actually DIMINISHES my rights?

Quite a conundrum, isn't it?

[Halfpint]

*Thanks*, Mike! You've said what I *wanted* to say but a *lot* better than I could have.

[El Rojo]

It is amusing to me how liberals are really into letting everyone have a say and an opinion. And these same liberals also accept everyone's opinions and say that everyone is right in a way. They claim it is crucial that we respect everyone's views and I remember a TA (teacher's assistant) I had that was so preoccupied with avoiding conflict that she would support both sides of an argument and say they were right. It was impossible both sides were right because the one side contradicted the other side. Everyone runs around academia trying not to hurt someone else's feelings and every thing is just one big relative society of contradictions.

That being said, I am going to take a stand and say, "Westicle you are wrong. I do not agree with your statements and I am going to give reasons why. First, supporting S&W is not supporting the gun industry. S&W and the government have signed an agreement that has attempted to control the rest of the gun industry as well as grant special treatment to S&W all at the expense of honest, law abiding gun owners. The agreement is clearly opposed to the American system of capitalism and seems more characteristic of a socialist or communist system of economics. That being said I will exercise my capitalist rights of being a free consumer and I choose not to purchase S&W products, as doing so will support the socialist agreement that S&W and the government have created. Further, I am going to exercise my 1st Amendment rights and tell as many people as possible why I think they should join the rest of gun owning Americans and not support S&W and their agreement. I am further going to emphasize how important it is for all of the consumers of the gun industry to send a clear message through the S&W boycott that our 2nd Amendment rights will not be violated. I do not think it is necessary to sell your S&W guns that you had prior to your enlightenment on this issue, but I most assuredly believe that if you continue to purchase S&W products after our conversation, you are clearly supporting the efforts of socialists and communists to subvert this country into a despotic, socialist wasteland."

If there is any offense taken from this post by anyone who does not support the S&W gun ban, accept responsibility for your offense because I carried this dialog out with nothing but facts and reasonable logic. If there is a pang in your side and you don't like hearing what I am saying, it is not because I called you a bastard or made references to your mother. I did none of those things. If you are hurting from this post, I can only conclude that it must be some sort of moral or conscience conflict within yourself. I hope you can solve this dilemma.

And as far as Canadians go, I don't really care what they do. They have no 2nd Amendment. They don't know freedom as we do. That really is a shame. So let them buy S&W all they want, this boycott obviously means nothing to them and I don't expect it too. That is why I urge all Americans who love freedom to support the boycott. You won't be sorry you did and you will probably be able to sleep comfortably as well.

[Westicle]

Mike, you make some very valid points and I know from readin your posts over the last year that you are the #1 guy around with the Facts and the Numbers.

All that I am asking is for you to let other people chose what they want, do not make fun of them for buying a smith and wesson. To YOUR knowledge is a Smith and Wesson firearm a Good Firearm..... do they go bang most of the times you pull the trigger ? is there another Revolver Company out there that makes a Product as well respected (and don't bother saying taurus.... had 2of them that lost the timing)

How come this Ban has not been moved over to the Kimber Pistols.... After all S&W make's the slides and Frames.

Iknow of at least a dozen people that no longer frequent this board due to the flames that where directed at them for buying a make of firearm. is that right ?
----------------------------
El Rojo......
The GOVERMENT makes the laws, not industry........ no matter what a company does the goverment still has to pass it into Law. You guys are losing your right's every day, STATE by STATE, you have no uniformatiy in your gun laws.... 50 states 50 differant set of rules. 12 states that don't allow CCW and a bunch that do. all you have to do is look at california, thier law is as bad as Canada's is right now, and they are getting worse.

I would suggest you try and make your gun laws completly federal and take the "Public Safety" crap out of the hands of the gun grabbers. If the federal goverment is the only Agency involved then at least you will have uniform gun regulations.

You guys yell at S&W and yet you still pay Property and Income Tax, why not ban the goverment..... they can't throw 80 million gun owners in jail and you would bankrupt the goverment. So Far GW Bush doesn't look to be doing the gun owners of america any favours....... start campaigns and TELL your elected voice what you want them to spout.

[b] I am not asking for the People who choose to Ban S&W to stop thier Ban, I would just like to see a little respect towards the people who decide to buy what they want. Can you believe some people want to ny Norinco Guns...... my god , 2 months ago they kidnapped a Plane and 23 of your service men/women. I support a Ban on China and do not nuy anything Chinese if I can help it.[b]

[Mike Irwin]

Where have I "made fun of" an individual for their decision to purchase a Smith & Wesson product?

I state my position simply and forcefully. If that aggravates an individual, then so be it. I will, at all times, speak my mind and my beliefs on this subject, for this is what I believe; that to purchase a new firearm made by Smith & Wesson is to support a company that sold out law-abiding gunowners in the United States and received, in return, nothing but empty and broken promises.

Obviously I AM allowing people to purchase what they want. Has anyone here complained that I have shown up at their home and forced them to purchase a firearm other than a Smith & Wesson? No, for I have not done so.

This is NOT meant as a flame, but I get the feeling that you don't quite understand what the purpose of a chat board is all about. By the very fact that people post comments here, they INVITE replies -- both positive and negative -- in response to their post.

Would it be any different if this were an automotive forum, and someone was asking about an automobile with known defects?

Would we be accused to attempting to prevent this person from purchasing the automobile if we pointed out inherent flaws with the product?

Or should we simply sit back and let that person move forward with an action that we believe to be a mistake that is against their best interests?

In essence, that is exactly what is happening here -- we are attempting to point out inherent, and dangerous, flaws not with Smith & Wesson's products, but with its corporate philosophy.

The fact that Smith & Wesson produces a superior product (which I firmly believe that they do) simply CAN NOT be separated from the fact that the company's philosophy is inherently flawed, and in fact grieviously injurious to law-abiding firearms owners in the United States.

You say that the Government makes the laws. That is true.

But do you know how this agreement came about?

It was NOT by the bone fide legislative process, it was a fiat by the Clinton administration to do through essentially intimidation and blackmail what it could NOT do through the legitimate legislative process.

In essence, this agreement has the force of law, but it was never enacted by the Congress of the United States. It is, in fact, an extralegal "law."

And, given the provisions of the agreement, the enforcement of this fiat is not done by the goverment, it has been farmed out to a third party, i.e. S&W and its stocking dealers. To retain their distribution rights, stocking dealers will not be allowed to carry or sell LEGAL products; Smith & Wesson, not the government, is responsible for assuring compliance by the dealers.

Please try to explain to me how any of that is right, or even legal.

"I would suggest you try and make your gun laws completly federal and take the "Public Safety" crap out of the hands of the gun grabbers. If the federal goverment is the only Agency involved then at least you will have uniform gun regulations."

Obviously you have little knowledge of how the United States Constitution apportions powers between the federal and state governments.

Constitutionally, state governments have primacy on issues such as this. Unfortunatly, beginning in the 1860s, the federal government began to play a larger, and ever more pervasive, role in creating and enforcing laws that are the just domain of ONLY the states.

A rather destructive war was fought over this issue, and in the minds of many people (and to a degree even mine), the wrong side won.

[citizen]

What????? The kid on the next block surfs by occasionally, and doesn't like how we play? Nor do his friends? Golly gee; we'll surely miss them.....NOT!!!!!!

[AR-10]

Westicle,

This is typical of the way this debate usually goes. Instead of using the text of the agreement to make a case for defending S&W, unrelated issues are brought up and haggled over.

Kimber is not the issue here. I would like to think they are looking at other suppliers and exploring ways they can break the contract they no doubt have with S&W to produce a product for them. I have not seen a statement from them supporting Smiths decision. Time will tell. If they extend business dealings with Smith then they will regret it. This is conjecture on my part as I do not have access to Kimber officials in the know.

The idea that I should refuse to pay taxes as a way to voice displeasure with the management of S&W is goofy. Patronize a company that is trying to screw me while at the same time trying to bankrupt the government that allows me more freedom than possibly any other country in the world.Where is the logic in that?
A tax protest has some merit in regard to other issues, but again is unrelated to this discussion.

Back on topic, you would like to post your continued support and admiration for S&W without being reminded that your opinion is not popular with a lot of people. I would like you to stop sending them money to use against me. Neither of us is going to get what we want on this one.

The only thing you are doing through this thread is spark debate that will educate shooters who have not read the agreement for themselves. That is why the people posting have taken the time to respond. For that, we thank you.

[bookkie]

Freedom of speech does not mean that everyone has to agree with everyone else. It means that each of us has the right to express our opinions, regardless if those opinions are right or wrong. This guarantees that we can learn from each other. In learning how others think and believe we come closer together, hopefully without violence. It means we have the opportunity to either teach someone else the truth, or have our own minds enlightened. Having said that, this does not always come about without conflict. People are often very passionate regarding their opinions. A lot of us have forgotten our history. In the early years of our country there were duels that were fought over disagreements of opinion. I can?t remember the names of the people involved, but one congressman took his cane, and in a fit of furry tried to beat another congressman to death with it on the floor of congress. Now that is what I call a heated debate. Today people are to sensitive to political correctness. Don?t hurt another person?s feelings. Don?t say anything to upset them. HeII, what we do need is some good old-fashioned heated debates in congress. I would love nothing better than to see my representative take a cane and beat some sense into another legislator.

Guess what I?m trying to say is learn not to take everything so personal. There are a lot of us here on TFL who are very passionate regarding our opinion on the S&W deal. And we are not afraid to say so. Political correctness be dammed, we are going to express our opinion. And yes, I will say that we think that those who buy S&W are traitors. I personally have low opinions of someone who does break the boycott and purchases a gun from them. But that is my opinion and who am I to disagree with you? I don?t have any more rights to my opinion than you do. It?s just that we both have the right to express them.

I?ve often said that the independence and strong will of gun owners was one of the reasons why it is so hard for us to come together. But that strong will (stubbornness) and independence will also become our strengths when we finally do.