Disobey

George Hill · July 26, 2001, 12:35 PM

The following is a part from Charlton Heston's speech at Harvard Law. For the whole text, you can read it here: http://www.users.qwest.net/~hgeorge8...ton_heston.htm

Quote:

You simply ... disobey.

Peaceably, yes. Respectfully, of course. Nonviolently, absolutely.

But when told how to think or what to say or how to behave, we don’t. We disobey social protocol that stifles and stigmatizes personal freedom.

I learned the awesome power of disobedience from Dr. King . . . who learned it from Gandhi, and Thoreau, and Jesus, and every other great man who led those in the right against those with the might.

Disobedience is in our DNA. We feel innate kinship with that disobedient spirit that tossed tea into Boston Harbor, that sent Thoreau to jail, that refused to sit in the back of the bus, that protested a war in Viet Nam.

In that same spirit, I am asking you to disavow cultural correctness with massive disobedience of rogue authority, social directives and onerous laws that weaken personal freedom.

Dennis · July 26, 2001, 12:50 PM

George,

In my opinion, you have just made what might be the best post ever to appear on TFL.

Thank you.

George Hill · July 26, 2001, 12:54 PM

You humble me, Sir. That is the highest compliment that could ever be granted a shooter.

Oleg Volk · July 26, 2001, 01:06 PM

Someone (Turtledove?) had a short story of Ghandi would have fared had Germans taken over India fromthe UK in 1941. There's a time and place for civil disobedience and time and place for the uncivil kind. The thing to remember is that it works equally nastily both ways so never escalate when such a step can be avoided...or shrink from it when bad choices trump worse results from inaction.

If only I knew which is which beforehand...

dZ · July 26, 2001, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon
the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest.
- Mohandas Gandi

Longshot · July 26, 2001, 01:55 PM

--

Kiffster · July 26, 2001, 01:55 PM

My dad sent me the text of the speach shortly after it was given, and I hand it out like candy. It is worded correctly and is very logical as well as thought provoking. I think the best part is that it challenges you to THINK about things and not just follow. Great for those "Educated" folks among us.

It also is very broad and fits many situations.

Frodo

Dennis · July 26, 2001, 02:13 PM

Peaceful means, so long as peaceful means have a chance to improve our lot, are the tools we should use.

Those who would rule us recognize that our patience is not without end; our endurance is not without limits. Only our resolve is without bounds.

That is why they try to weaken our resolve, to take our arms and to make us powerless before them.

We must ensure we never lose the moral fiber to be ready to use rightful force as a last resort.

Danger Dave · July 26, 2001, 02:37 PM

I vaguely recalling Ghandi saying that the nonviolent approach worked with the British because the British were basically a just and moral people who, when forced to confront their own wrongdoings, would make things right. He believed he could not expect the same results were the Nazi's in control.

Edward429451 · July 26, 2001, 03:08 PM

Ah, but if Mr. Heston posted that speech on TFL, he'd be chastised for alluding to the fact that the college students are "cowards", (no personal attacks, please).
Can anyone say that Mr. Heston is not on the high road?
I think he's brave, outspoken, and his words should be heeded!

Spectre · July 26, 2001, 03:40 PM

Thought provoking, indeed.

I do believe it's true that peaceful civil disobedience only works in countries that have some shreds of conscience; it does not work in Communist China. (Or, perhaps more properly, it would not work unless a significant portion of the population were willing to give their lives, bringing Chinese industry to a halt until real breakthroughs in liberty occurred.)

Don Gwinn · July 26, 2001, 03:53 PM

Yes, if Mr. Heston came to TFL and started calling members cowards, particularly if he called them cowards for no good reason, he would be asked to stop.

Mr. Heston is speaking here of civil disobedience, which entails more than just breaking a law. When he makes his reference to cowards, for instance, he is talking about people who "validate and abide by" staying silent and conforming to political norms. He is also speaking of real civil disobedience, which means disobeying not as a way of getting away with something for yourself but as a way of drawing attention and getting the law changed for good, thus achieving justice for everyone. This involves the willingness to put yourself on the line and accept the consequences of breaking the law. That's what makes people who truly practice it so rare. (It's a great speech. I have the whole thing up on my old website as well:
http://www.geocities.com/gwinnydapoo...ources.html#HS

dZ · July 26, 2001, 03:59 PM

"Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." Mohandas Gandi

I read somewhere, that Gandi chose non violence because he could not secure sufficient arms for a violent uprising

George Hill · July 26, 2001, 04:27 PM

No. Gandi chose peace because he was a wise man. Peace is the first choice and the goal in the end. If Peace didn't work - then the violence. Violence is the Final Option.

cuerno de chivo · July 26, 2001, 11:25 PM

Just realize that their is a price for disobediance. It involves breaking a law. As moderator and LEO Long Path has pointed out, laws are enforced good, bad, or indifferent. With firearm laws that could easily mean a felony which would mean PROHIBITED POSESSOR.

rock_jock · July 26, 2001, 11:34 PM

I like Charlie Heston a lot. I only wish that in his next big speech where he raises his arm, longgun clenched in fist, and cries "From my cold dead fingers!", that the gun is an AR-15, not a musket.

Oh,....and with a 30-rd mag.

Seeker · July 27, 2001, 01:57 AM

Oleg -
Yep!

mussi · July 27, 2001, 04:10 AM

Civil disobedience will probably just lead to a civil war if the
government stands firm on its stances, like gun control. It will use
the media, and then they will probably criminalize or just kill the
opposing group off, one by one.

If the government, once radicalized enough, sets on to enforce all
sorts of stupid laws on the behest of a vocal minority, the shooting
will start soon. Once hysterical enough, law enforcement will turn
into a veritable bunch of JBTs and honest people won't have options.
That's always the worst scenario, given the other side forces you
against the wall.

Sodbuster · July 27, 2001, 09:46 AM

You simply...disobey. I think Sun Tzu said something like that.

thumbtack · July 27, 2001, 06:33 PM

There are a lot of cowards in my generation and they are reproducing.

Edward429451 · August 2, 2001, 03:48 PM

Nice signature! another one is...
"Men weren't hung for stealing horses, but that horses be not stolen!"
Author unknown

July 26, 2001, 12:54 PM	#3
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	You humble me, Sir. That is the highest compliment that could ever be granted a shooter. __________________ MAD OGRE

July 26, 2001, 01:06 PM	#4
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Someone (Turtledove?) had a short story of Ghandi would have fared had Germans taken over India fromthe UK in 1941. There's a time and place for civil disobedience and time and place for the uncivil kind. The thing to remember is that it works equally nastily both ways so never escalate when such a step can be avoided...or shrink from it when bad choices trump worse results from inaction. If only I knew which is which beforehand... __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

July 26, 2001, 01:55 PM	#6
Longshot Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Oregon Posts: 717	-- __________________ "You have to understand...most of these people are not ready to be unplugged...they are so inured, so completely dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it" Morpheus-The Matrix Semper Fi! Oregonians, please support the Oregon Firearms Federation, our local "no compromise" chapter of the GOA

July 26, 2001, 01:55 PM	#7
Kiffster Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2000 Posts: 162	My dad sent me the text of the speach shortly after it was given, and I hand it out like candy. It is worded correctly and is very logical as well as thought provoking. I think the best part is that it challenges you to THINK about things and not just follow. Great for those "Educated" folks among us. It also is very broad and fits many situations. Frodo __________________ Sig 229 .40 - When you care enough to shoot the very best! You may not like guns, and choose not to own one. That is your right. You might not believe in God. That is your choice. However, if someone breaks into your home the first two things youre going to do are: 1)Call someone with a gun. 2)Pray they get there in time.

July 26, 2001, 03:59 PM	#13
dZ Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: Exiled, Fetid Swamp, DC Posts: 7,548	"Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." Mohandas Gandi I read somewhere, that Gandi chose non violence because he could not secure sufficient arms for a violent uprising __________________ "O tell the Lacedomecians to damn the torpedoes." BOTR, Chapter V: Some Monsters

July 26, 2001, 12:50 PM	#2
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	George, In my opinion, you have just made what might be the best post ever to appear on TFL. Thank you.

July 26, 2001, 02:13 PM	#8
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	Peaceful means, so long as peaceful means have a chance to improve our lot, are the tools we should use. Those who would rule us recognize that our patience is not without end; our endurance is not without limits. Only our resolve is without bounds. That is why they try to weaken our resolve, to take our arms and to make us powerless before them. We must ensure we never lose the moral fiber to be ready to use rightful force as a last resort.

July 26, 2001, 02:37 PM	#9
Danger Dave Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 1999 Location: Dallas, GA, USA Posts: 791	I vaguely recalling Ghandi saying that the nonviolent approach worked with the British because the British were basically a just and moral people who, when forced to confront their own wrongdoings, would make things right. He believed he could not expect the same results were the Nazi's in control.

July 26, 2001, 03:08 PM	#10
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Ah, but if Mr. Heston posted that speech on TFL, he'd be chastised for alluding to the fact that the college students are "cowards", (no personal attacks, please). Can anyone say that Mr. Heston is not on the high road? I think he's brave, outspoken, and his words should be heeded!

July 26, 2001, 03:40 PM	#11
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Thought provoking, indeed. I do believe it's true that peaceful civil disobedience only works in countries that have some shreds of conscience; it does not work in Communist China. (Or, perhaps more properly, it would not work unless a significant portion of the population were willing to give their lives, bringing Chinese industry to a halt until real breakthroughs in liberty occurred.)

July 26, 2001, 03:53 PM	#12
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	Yes, if Mr. Heston came to TFL and started calling members cowards, particularly if he called them cowards for no good reason, he would be asked to stop. Mr. Heston is speaking here of civil disobedience, which entails more than just breaking a law. When he makes his reference to cowards, for instance, he is talking about people who "validate and abide by" staying silent and conforming to political norms. He is also speaking of real civil disobedience, which means disobeying not as a way of getting away with something for yourself but as a way of drawing attention and getting the law changed for good, thus achieving justice for everyone. This involves the willingness to put yourself on the line and accept the consequences of breaking the law. That's what makes people who truly practice it so rare. (It's a great speech. I have the whole thing up on my old website as well: http://www.geocities.com/gwinnydapoo...ources.html#HS

July 26, 2001, 04:27 PM	#14
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	No. Gandi chose peace because he was a wise man. Peace is the first choice and the goal in the end. If Peace didn't work - then the violence. Violence is the Final Option. __________________ MAD OGRE

July 26, 2001, 11:25 PM	#15
cuerno de chivo Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2000 Posts: 919	Just realize that their is a price for disobediance. It involves breaking a law. As moderator and LEO Long Path has pointed out, laws are enforced good, bad, or indifferent. With firearm laws that could easily mean a felony which would mean PROHIBITED POSESSOR.

July 26, 2001, 11:34 PM	#16
rock_jock Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Location: SE Texas Posts: 1,779	I like Charlie Heston a lot. I only wish that in his next big speech where he raises his arm, longgun clenched in fist, and cries "From my cold dead fingers!", that the gun is an AR-15, not a musket. Oh,....and with a 30-rd mag.

July 27, 2001, 01:57 AM	#17
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: Lacomb, Oregon Posts: 1,393	Oleg - Yep! __________________ Molon Labe Seeker "The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson Don't Tread On Me! "Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -Thich Nhat Hanh

July 27, 2001, 04:10 AM	#18
mussi Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2000 Location: Berne, Switzerland Posts: 757	Civil disobedience will probably just lead to a civil war if the government stands firm on its stances, like gun control. It will use the media, and then they will probably criminalize or just kill the opposing group off, one by one. If the government, once radicalized enough, sets on to enforce all sorts of stupid laws on the behest of a vocal minority, the shooting will start soon. Once hysterical enough, law enforcement will turn into a veritable bunch of JBTs and honest people won't have options. That's always the worst scenario, given the other side forces you against the wall.

July 27, 2001, 09:46 AM	#19
Sodbuster Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 1999 Location: Wyo-Tana Posts: 1,298	You simply...disobey. I think Sun Tzu said something like that. __________________ Remember, many times what we view as a curse in the present turns out to be a blessing in the future. Don't worry about it a lot. Things have a way of working out. Trust me on this one. - - Uncle Bill Martino

July 27, 2001, 06:33 PM	#20
thumbtack Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2001 Location: Garland, Texas Posts: 724	There are a lot of cowards in my generation and they are reproducing. __________________ Nothing to see here, move along.

August 2, 2001, 03:48 PM	#21
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Nice signature! another one is... "Men weren't hung for stealing horses, but that horses be not stolen!" Author unknown