Obtaining an alien firearms license - WA State - Page 3

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 12:39 PM

With all these rude comments most of you are allienating an honest "about to be" gun owner. He never asked to change the law but to execise his right the law already grants him but ran into administrative problems. He was asking our help to get through that problem and he has been hammered down. No wonder the "American gun culture is fading".

Based on the comments here when Americans visit bars in Europe they should not be allowed to drink if under the age of 21, should not be allowed to have sex with local women if under the age 17 (in most countires 14 and above is legal) should not be allowed to smoke pot in designated places, should not be allowed to be publicly intoxicated and urinate in public because it is all the privilige of local citizens only.

BTW: most Europian contries DO allow firearm ownership. England is the bad apple in the EU but most others like Sweden, Finland, Switzerland has fairly liberal (less liberal compared to the US though) gun licensing. One thing that is quite different: you cannot use greater force for self defense than what has been used by your attecker. Hence killing somebody in self defense is never justified. But doing the same as an officer or a licensed security guard at work can be justified based on the circumstances.

TimRB · May 21, 2008, 12:50 PM

"I do think of target shooting as a hobby - I don't want to strut around in bars with a concealed Glock looking for a reason to be provoked and then to shoot someone. Am I being un-American if I don't want to do that ?"

No, but you are being European if that's the way you see it.

Tim

Wyldman · May 21, 2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

With all these rude comments most of you are allienating an honest "about to be" gun owner.

RUDE is coming into an American Forum and telling us how backwards and unfair our laws are concerning the right to own and bear arms! I for one, am glad to hear that resident aliens are having problems owning firearms here legally!

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

I for one, am glad to hear that resident aliens are having problems owning firearms here legally!

You and me in Texas should be more worried about drug runners and illegals having guns. The few who went through the trouble getting legal resident status over the years and try to obtain a firearm legally should have no problem doing it so. He will not end up shooting an HPD officer 7 times from the back of his patrol car you can be sure about that:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5793341.html

I have several friends from the EU working here some of them are honest gun owners and regularly going to the range together. They are just as much of a threat to national security as an American going over to Europe.

Do the simple math:

You go to a church the first time.

1. The priest welcomes you and very friendly. You are happy and glad to tell everybody inyour neighborhood to visit that chuch. You bring your family and make them become church members.
2. The priest is rude. Comments your appearance or ethnics on a rude way. You never go to this church again. You tell everybody around you not to go there any more.

Same with gun owners:

1. If a "to be" owner is "welcome" he will care to keep his rights. He might join the NRA helping to lobby for gun rights when needed. He tells his family members to vote for pro-gun candidate and encourages his friends to do the same. Once gaining citizenship he'll help us getting more support on votes when needed.
2. An "unwelcome" "to be" owner will get sour. Will encourage his family members to vote for anti-gun candidates, will never join the NRA and will encourage his friends and neighbors to vote for anti-gun candidates.

And frankly; we need all the support we can get in the next presidental cycle.

Stiofan · May 21, 2008, 02:02 PM

It's not what he is saying, but how he is saying it. Neither he nor yourself can see that.

This "I'm entitled to everything" attitude isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid.

I've got no problem with legal aliens owning guns. I've got a problem with his attitude, that he deserves it "because he's a citizen of the world bs".

Call me touchy, but Europeans (he's been here 8-10 years and still identifies more with them) have screwed up their centers of influence so much I'd just rather not take the attitude. Of course, I think I'd have the smarts not to go into France or Spain and gloat about the good 'ol USA and how they need to change their laws so I can own a gun without being licensed - as licenses are not the norm here, but are there if you can get them at all.

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 02:22 PM

I went though the thread again paying a bit more attention other than the original post. I think you are right some posts have gone a bit agressive on both sides

.

He got exactly what Americans get when criticizing the laws and politics over there (Iraq, global warming, traffic rules, drugs and firearms etc.)

.

I wish he still joined the NRA though but I think we lost him

.

I remember walking on a street with my family in Europe once having an Old Navy tshirt on me that happen to have an American flag on it. A guy almost attacked my while yelling about Iraq. He sounded Russian or some other Slavik speaking though.

Wyldman · May 21, 2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

It's not what he is saying, but how he is saying it. Neither he nor yourself can see that.

This "I'm entitled to everything" attitude isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid.

I've got no problem with legal aliens owning guns. I've got a problem with his attitude, that he deserves it "because he's a citizen of the world bs".

The way he is saying it is offensive but I do not think that ANYONE who is not a full-blown American Citizen should be allowed to purchase or own firearms in this country. Become a full-blown citizen and buy all the guns you want!

Quote:

Call me touchy, but Europeans (he's been here 8-10 years and still identifies more with them) have screwed up their centers of influence so much I'd just rather not take the attitude. Of course, I think I'd have the smarts not to go into France or Spain and gloat about the good 'ol USA and how they need to change their laws so I can own a gun without being licensed - as licenses are not the norm here, but are there if you can get them at all.

EXACTLY ... I was thinking the exact same thing!

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

but I do not think that ANYONE who is not a full-blown American Citizen should be allowed to purchase or own firearms in this country

Just don't tell it to anybody specially not to an anti-gunner. You are dividing the gun owner population that can lead to disarming the whole. They will quickly disarm the non-citizen gun owners and for the next no one will care. Be careful what you wish for

.

Just like the AWB. Most gun owners might not care or affected directly. But if you give them 1 inch they will want the whole 9 yards.

BTW: Interesting opinion from a gun owner in Texas which is considered a pro-gun state.

LostOne · May 21, 2008, 04:37 PM

If your not an American, you shouldn't have a right to own a firearm in America, pretty simple.

B. Lahey · May 21, 2008, 04:48 PM

The Second Amendment doesn't mention anything about citizenship.

The right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to all people everywhere and has nothing to do with beaurocratic titles. All free men everywhere have the god-given right to own and carry arms.

LostOne · May 21, 2008, 04:53 PM

Quote:

The Second Amendment doesn't mention anything about citizenship.

The right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to all people everywhere and has nothing to do with beaurocratic titles. All free men everywhere have the god-given right to own and carry arms.

Constitution should only apply to US citizens,

B. Lahey · May 21, 2008, 04:54 PM

The Constitution has nothing to do with it. It just affirms a pre existing right that all people everywhere have.

LostOne · May 21, 2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

The Constitution has nothing to do with it. It just affirms a pre existing right that all people everywhere have.

It does?

No I don't want people who are not loyal to this country getting guns right after jumping over the border.

Become a citizen, and all laws that apply to me will apply to you,

B. Lahey · May 21, 2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

It does?

Yep.

Do some reading on fundamental rights (AKA god-given rights).

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 05:03 PM

Non-US citizens are welcome to own firearm in Texas and obtain CHL if they decide to. All Texan gun owners welcome them regardless of their citizenship status assuming they are legally in the country.
Every single one of them I know just helped to raise the image of honest gun owners and turned their citizen spouses, children to either pro-gun or at least not anti-gun.

The more acceptance gun ownership gets in our society the more chance it'll survive without major (or called "reasonable") restrictions.
It is that simple.

BTW: Obtaining a green card is a lengthy process (takes several years). There is not such thing as jumping over the border and a green card is handed over.

BTW: Why do you think if someone comes to the US legally, working hard and takes the effort to obtain a green card and is waiting to apply for citizenship is not loyal. If he was not loyal he would not be here.

BTW: Did you know that green card holders are welcome to join the military and there are lot of them currently serving our country? Based on your comments they should be unarmed while serving our country.

BTW: Did you know that some states (not Texas though) do not require citizenship to become a police or peace officer? Based on your comments they should be unarmed officersI guess.

LostOne · May 21, 2008, 05:05 PM

Freedom is a god given right also? Gee, gosh golly rape should be perfectly fine then.

I don't trust any foreigner coming into this country and demanding the right to buy what ever he wants without being a US citizen.

I fully support AMERICANS having the ability to purchase any fire-arm assuming the proper steps are taken to assure they don't have a criminal history and they observe proper safety protocols.

Once your a legal citizen, you will have the same rights as me, until then you can put it up with our laws or move back to what ever country you came from - its your choice.

w_houle · May 21, 2008, 05:24 PM

... at first they came for the foreigners and I said nothing because I am not a foreigner...

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

I don't trust any foreigner coming into this country and demanding the right to buy what ever he wants without being a US citizen.

Unfortunatelly we are all one of them unless you are a native American Indian. We simply took the land away and too few left to claim it back.

So why should the goverment trust its citizens "demanding the right to buy what ever he wants"?

LostOne · May 21, 2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Unfortunatelly we are all one of them unless you are a native American Indian. We simply took the land away and too few left to claim it back.

So why sould the goverment trust its citizens "demanding the right to buy what ever he wants"?

If you are US citizen, US laws and protections apply to you as well as your ability to be part of the political process in which laws are made. If you aren't one we owe you nothing.

Pretty simple, if he wants to buy US guns he should become a US citizen, our country is still one of the most pro-gun countries in the world, if he likes Europe so much he should have continued living there becuase apparently "its more fair".

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 05:42 PM

"LostOne" I agree, it would be still reasonable to require US citizenship for firearm ownership and I fully respect your opinion.

What I'm trying to tell that I see no reason changing the current laws as they are really and fully on our side. Changing the laws would make the rabid anti-gunners stronger and trying to apply more "reasonable" gun control laws.

"So we got that done, what's next to work on?

"

LostOne · May 21, 2008, 05:50 PM

Your right, I will support the current law if it allows fire-arms licenses to those who are not US citizens, I disagree with it but I will support it.

My problem was with this guys attitude of, "I deserve everything just becuase I have lived in your country for x amount of months", as well as his comment about fire-arms only being used as a "hobby".

B. Lahey · May 21, 2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Freedom is a god given right also? Gee, gosh golly rape should be perfectly fine then.

Freedom is an abstract concept or a state of being, a fundamental right is a concrete thing that free people can exercise, but all people have. I don't understand where you are going with that argument. There is no right to rape recognized by anyone that I know of and I've never even heard of a "right to freedom". You are mixing your terms in a nonsensical way.

zbordas · May 21, 2008, 06:04 PM

Correct.

He probably needs to get on the "take it or leave it" attitude. Most of my friends are happy that they have the privilige but under no circumstances would demand it as a right owning a firearm.

"Owning a firearm being a hobby". I don't share his opinion but it is a personal choice.

I share you opinion about the immigration rallies specially the ones waving foreign flags demanding(!) amnesty.

erlkonig · May 21, 2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

England and the EU is hardly "developing" and obviously you know pretty much nothing about it.

...

Quote:

Well first of all I am not an IT kid with Porsche - I am a 60 year old retired guy...

Nope, I did not refer to England as a developing country, nor did I infer that Allserene is an IT kid with a sports-car. I was just giving an example of the seeming "unfairness" in that lots of foreign tech workers from seemingly under-underprivileged backgrounds are coming here and taking the best paying jobs and living it up in the land of average Joe the "privileged". Neither is it fair to Allserene that a good man like himself should be stopped from getting a gun.

My point really is: it ain't fair, and we shouldn't expect it to be.

w_houle · May 21, 2008, 06:17 PM

Yes, this is why gun control works! You keep the guns out of the hands of law abiding people. Citizenship doesn't matter, it is not a crime to be here when you are not from here. It is like talking about banning guns because criminals use them. Hello, criminals don't bother using legal means to obtain guns for illicit purposes. If someone passes a criminal background check and are legally good to go then there shouldn't be a problem.

May 21, 2008, 05:24 PM	#67
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,391	... at first they came for the foreigners and I said nothing because I am not a foreigner... __________________ How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?

May 21, 2008, 06:17 PM	#75
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,391	Yes, this is why gun control works! You keep the guns out of the hands of law abiding people. Citizenship doesn't matter, it is not a crime to be here when you are not from here. It is like talking about banning guns because criminals use them. *Hello*, criminals don't bother using legal means to obtain guns for illicit purposes. If someone passes a criminal background check and are legally good to go then there shouldn't be a problem. __________________ How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?

May 21, 2008, 12:39 PM	#51
zbordas Registration in progress Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 107	With all these rude comments most of you are allienating an honest "about to be" gun owner. He never asked to change the law but to execise his right the law already grants him but ran into administrative problems. He was asking our help to get through that problem and he has been hammered down. No wonder the "American gun culture is fading". Based on the comments here when Americans visit bars in Europe they should not be allowed to drink if under the age of 21, should not be allowed to have sex with local women if under the age 17 (in most countires 14 and above is legal) should not be allowed to smoke pot in designated places, should not be allowed to be publicly intoxicated and urinate in public because it is all the privilige of local citizens only. BTW: most Europian contries DO allow firearm ownership. England is the bad apple in the EU but most others like Sweden, Finland, Switzerland has fairly liberal (less liberal compared to the US though) gun licensing. One thing that is quite different: you cannot use greater force for self defense than what has been used by your attecker. Hence killing somebody in self defense is never justified. But doing the same as an officer or a licensed security guard at work can be justified based on the circumstances.

May 21, 2008, 12:50 PM	#52
TimRB Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 1,049	"I do think of target shooting as a hobby - I don't want to strut around in bars with a concealed Glock looking for a reason to be provoked and then to shoot someone. Am I being un-American if I don't want to do that ?" No, but you are being European if that's the way you see it. Tim

May 21, 2008, 02:02 PM	#55
Stiofan Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2006 Location: Panhandle, Idaho Posts: 714	It's not what he is saying, but how he is saying it. Neither he nor yourself can see that. This "I'm entitled to everything" attitude isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. I've got no problem with legal aliens owning guns. I've got a problem with his attitude, that he deserves it "because he's a citizen of the world bs". Call me touchy, but Europeans (he's been here 8-10 years and still identifies more with them) have screwed up their centers of influence so much I'd just rather not take the attitude. Of course, I think I'd have the smarts not to go into France or Spain and gloat about the good 'ol USA and how they need to change their laws so I can own a gun without being licensed - as licenses are not the norm here, but are there if you can get them at all.

May 21, 2008, 02:22 PM	#56
zbordas Registration in progress Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 107	I went though the thread again paying a bit more attention other than the original post. I think you are right some posts have gone a bit agressive on both sides . He got exactly what Americans get when criticizing the laws and politics over there (Iraq, global warming, traffic rules, drugs and firearms etc.) . I wish he still joined the NRA though but I think we lost him . I remember walking on a street with my family in Europe once having an Old Navy tshirt on me that happen to have an American flag on it. A guy almost attacked my while yelling about Iraq. He sounded Russian or some other Slavik speaking though.

May 21, 2008, 04:37 PM	#59
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	If your not an American, you shouldn't have a right to own a firearm in America, pretty simple.

May 21, 2008, 04:48 PM	#60
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	The Second Amendment doesn't mention anything about citizenship. The right to keep and bear arms is fundamental to all people everywhere and has nothing to do with beaurocratic titles. All free men everywhere have the god-given right to own and carry arms.

May 21, 2008, 04:54 PM	#62
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	The Constitution has nothing to do with it. It just affirms a pre existing right that all people everywhere have.

May 21, 2008, 05:03 PM	#65
zbordas Registration in progress Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 107	Non-US citizens are welcome to own firearm in Texas and obtain CHL if they decide to. All Texan gun owners welcome them regardless of their citizenship status assuming they are legally in the country. Every single one of them I know just helped to raise the image of honest gun owners and turned their citizen spouses, children to either pro-gun or at least not anti-gun. The more acceptance gun ownership gets in our society the more chance it'll survive without major (or called "reasonable") restrictions. It is that simple. BTW: Obtaining a green card is a lengthy process (takes several years). There is not such thing as jumping over the border and a green card is handed over. BTW: Why do you think if someone comes to the US legally, working hard and takes the effort to obtain a green card and is waiting to apply for citizenship is not loyal. If he was not loyal he would not be here. BTW: Did you know that green card holders are welcome to join the military and there are lot of them currently serving our country? Based on your comments they should be unarmed while serving our country. BTW: Did you know that some states (not Texas though) do not require citizenship to become a police or peace officer? Based on your comments they should be unarmed officersI guess.

May 21, 2008, 05:05 PM	#66
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	Freedom is a god given right also? Gee, gosh golly rape should be perfectly fine then. I don't trust any foreigner coming into this country and demanding the right to buy what ever he wants without being a US citizen. I fully support AMERICANS having the ability to purchase any fire-arm assuming the proper steps are taken to assure they don't have a criminal history and they observe proper safety protocols. Once your a legal citizen, you will have the same rights as me, until then you can put it up with our laws or move back to what ever country you came from - its your choice.

May 21, 2008, 05:42 PM	#70
zbordas Registration in progress Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 107	"LostOne" I agree, it would be still reasonable to require US citizenship for firearm ownership and I fully respect your opinion. What I'm trying to tell that I see no reason changing the current laws as they are really and fully on our side. Changing the laws would make the rabid anti-gunners stronger and trying to apply more "reasonable" gun control laws. "So we got that done, what's next to work on? "

May 21, 2008, 05:50 PM	#71
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	Your right, I will support the current law if it allows fire-arms licenses to those who are not US citizens, I disagree with it but I will support it. My problem was with this guys attitude of, "I deserve everything just becuase I have lived in your country for x amount of months", as well as his comment about fire-arms only being used as a "hobby".

May 21, 2008, 06:04 PM	#73
zbordas Registration in progress Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 107	Correct. He probably needs to get on the "take it or leave it" attitude. Most of my friends are happy that they have the privilige but under no circumstances would demand it as a right owning a firearm. "Owning a firearm being a hobby". I don't share his opinion but it is a personal choice. I share you opinion about the immigration rallies specially the ones waving foreign flags demanding(!) amnesty.