Obtaining an alien firearms license - WA State - Page 5

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Where does it say that?

You didn't see the US goverment handing out guns to Indians, its an American Citizens right, its not the right of anyone who gets into this country.

nobody_special · May 23, 2008, 04:14 PM

I don't see the US government handing out guns to everyday US citizens, either.

allserene · May 23, 2008, 05:04 PM

The word people refers to US citizens, the founding fathers never for-saw all these illegals coming into the country.

If the Washington department of licensing or the U.S. government can't tell the difference between a genuine legal green card and a mexican forgery then there is no hope for anyone here but believe me when I say they CAN !

Only the owners of meat packing factories and apple orchards seem to have problems distinguishing forgeries from the real thing

I am as legal as anyone in the USA and I have had FBI and CIA checks twice and deep investigations into me and my family and personal interviews at the U.S. Embassy in London and medicals and mental health assessments in order to get a genuine legal green card. I have been measured and weighed and fingerprinted and photographed and had blood samples taken. All that is something that most gun owners in Washington State cannot say and I wonder how many of them would pass that degree of scrutiny ?

JayCee · May 23, 2008, 05:09 PM

I just want to know where it says in the Bill of Rights that immigrants who have been lawfully admitted to the United States don't have the same rights as US citizens, including but not limited to the right to free speech, the right to a trial by jury, the right against self incrimination, the right to freely exercise their religion, and the right to keep and bear arms.

allserene · May 23, 2008, 05:12 PM

just for light relief - I wish it would stop raining here so could get my canoe on Lake Chelan and exercise my right to shorts, tennis shoes and bare arms

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 05:20 PM

The bureaucrats in Washington are all incompetent, we have the best military in the world and we cant even secure our borders, you think they will be able to do any better when it comes to checking green-cards?

allserene · May 23, 2008, 05:42 PM

but the bureaucrats are American Citizens - and they are incompetent ? and they are allowed to have guns ? But Tony Blair can't shoot clay pigeons on a Sunday morning without committing a deportable (after jail) felony

Actually you will find that legal green card owners are more anti-illegals than anyone else. When we see these people just walking in after the hell we were put through to get legal residence then it makes our blood boil.

My buddy has lived in Atlanta for years and was held in detention at the airport because unknown to him, his visa extension letter only allowed him to stay longer as a resident and not to leave and come back. He was carrying the letter and his visa . He was frog marched to a cash machine by two agents to pay a large on the spot cash fine before being allowed to continue to his wife and family and job and house in Atlanta. Now ok that's in the rules but compare that to how real illegals are given driver's licenses etc etc

The U.S. should toughen up on illegals and ease up on people who are here with the approval of the government and who are fully law abiding

It's all the wrong way round

I am sat here complaining about not being allowed to shoot but the bad guys just shrug and are out there buying illegal guns and dont care - they wont post on here even with their stolen computer and they are the problem not me

nobody_special · May 23, 2008, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allserene

Actually you will find that legal green card owners are more anti-illegals than anyone else. When we see these people just walking in after the hell we were put through to get legal residence then it makes our blood boil.

That is the absolute truth. My wife is a legal alien, we're going through the process of obtaining a green card for her... it's a very expensive nightmare.

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 05:52 PM

Oh I don't disagree, all illegal immigrants need to be extracted from this country through any means.

But I just personally believe only US citizens should be able to own fire-arms in the US, once you become an actual US citizen you should be able to own any fire-arm you want, but until then you shouldn't be able to.

nobody_special · May 23, 2008, 05:59 PM

LostOne, I don't mean to be impolite or rude here, but your opinion on this doesn't matter. (Neither does mine.) What matters is the Constitution as interpreted by the Supreme Court. This has been decided: legal resident aliens do enjoy essentially full protections of the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately (IMO) this is not the case for legal, non-resident aliens (though non-resident aliens have protected rights under the fifth and sixth amendments). Here is an excerpt of the Supreme Court decision for U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez.

Quote:

The Fourth Amendment provides: [494 U.S. 259, 265]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

That text, by contrast with the Fifth and Sixth Amendments, extends its reach only to "the people." Contrary to the suggestion of amici curiae that the Framers used this phrase "simply to avoid [an] awkward rhetorical redundancy," Brief for American Civil Liberties Union et al. as Amici Curiae 12, n. 4, "the people" seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution. The Preamble declares that the Constitution is ordained and established by "the people of the United States." The Second Amendment protects "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms," and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments provide that certain rights and powers are retained by and reserved to "the people." See also U.S. Const., Amdt. 1 ("Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people peaceably to assemble") (emphasis added); Art. I, 2, cl. 1 ("The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the people of the several States") (emphasis added). While this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive, it suggests that "the people" protected by the Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments, and to whom rights and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community. See United States ex rel. Turner v. Williams, 194 U.S. 279, 292 (1904) (Excludable alien is not entitled to First Amendment rights, because "[h]e does not become one of the people to whom these things are secured by our Constitution by an attempt to enter forbidden by law"). The language of these Amendments contrasts with the words [494 U.S. 259, 266] "person" and "accused" used in the Fifth and Sixth Amendments regulating procedure in criminal cases.

nobody_special · May 23, 2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

But I just personally believe only US citizens should be able to own fire-arms in the US, once you become an actual US citizen you should be able to own any fire-arm you want, but until then you shouldn't be able to.

Let me also point this out: Oleg Volk's web site is about a human right. Not an American citizen's right.

Why should a legal alien not have rights? The only argument I see is simply "us vs. them" and that's not exactly good logic.

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 06:07 PM

The supreme court quote you referenced has no impact, it says the the constitution applies to those with sufficient connection to this country.

Just moving here doesn't produce a sufficient connection.

allserene · May 23, 2008, 06:11 PM

Lostone

If Mrs Bush goes to London and is invited on a pheasant shoot with queen elizabeth, how would it go down if she were charged with a felony if she accepts ?

Mrs bush seems quite pleasant and harmless enough and I as a British citizen would not be against her shooting on the same terms as everyone else

I wouldn't let GW have a gun but that's nothing to do with his immigration status or nationality

American Citizens are totally equal with British citizens there so why not reciprocate ?

nobody_special · May 23, 2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

The supreme court quote you referenced has no impact, it says the the constitution applies to those with sufficient connection to this country.

Just moving here doesn't produce a sufficient connection.

It is interpreted to mean that permanent resident aliens have protected rights, i.e. the term "the people" includes green-card holders.

Non-permanent residents are not explicitly protected by amendments which apply to "the people," but they are protected by the fifth and sixth amendments, which state "no person..." and "in all criminal prosecutions, the accused...." At present, non-permanent residents have conditional ability to exercise 2nd amendment rights, if they jump through the proper hoops. Yes, simply moving here is not enough, but SCOTUS ruled that citizenship is too high a bar.

The terms "the people" and "person" were held to encompass different scopes. It's screwed up, but there it is.

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 06:20 PM

lol, England isn't America and laws in England should have no effect on American laws, if it did we would be trying to ban knives.

Americans and foreigners aren't equal, thats just my opinion. Once you go through the proccess of becoming an American you will be, but to simply enter a country and think you are the same is incorrect in my view.

I certainly have allot more respect for legal Aliens though.

Also, try going to a European country wearing a T-Shirt with the US flag, you certainly won't be treated equal.

allserene · May 23, 2008, 06:27 PM

equal under the law is the thing

I have been spat at and called a SAXON in Wales and had my fishing float shot at in Scotland when they saw my english number plate - we can't educate everyone

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 06:40 PM

haha, Maybe if your country allowed guns you could have shot back

allserene · May 23, 2008, 06:50 PM

the Uk allows all guns except machine guns and hand guns but the police will question your neighbours about you before you get a license to make sure you are not a nut or a drunk or a crack fiend.You will be required to have hardwood inner doors in your house and a burglar alarm link to the police station and an approved steel gun cabinet bolted into the structure of the house

The only Americans who would accept that are the parents of those killed by such people

I have been a member of a rifle cub and I have owned a semi automatic pistol
and a rifle and a 12 bore shotgun and used a .303 Lee Enfield in the Police force - but my response to someone shooting at my fishing float would not be to blow their head off - call it a cultural difference but it makes me a better bet as a safe gun owner

perhaps after a few years in the U.S. I will start to think like that - but will it be an improvement and a civilizing advance for mankind ?
Will I be a better person ?

LostOne · May 23, 2008, 06:54 PM

If somone wants to kill you, you should have the right to blow there head off but thats just my opinion.

They show no regard to your safety, there is no reason you should show any to theres.

cubanitojr · June 18, 2008, 03:07 PM

Hello all,

I am a Green Card Holder residing in Redmond, WA.

Finally good news for all legal law abiding permanent resident aliens.

Bill HB 2955 became effective on June 12, 2008. This bill authorizes the WA DOL direct access to federal criminal backgrounds records. In a nutshell this law certifies the WA DOL as a "Criminal Justice Agency".

Today, I emailed the WA DOL all this info. I also asked when can I apply for my AFL.

Here is a link to the Bill.

http://dlr.leg.wa.gov/billsummary/de...2955&year=2007

WA Stat Rep. Ross Hunter emailed me this.

I was the prime sponsor of a bill this year that fixes this problem. I
> cannot remember the bill number, but it cleared up up the problems where
> one agency could not communicate with another agency regarding
> background checks. Solving the alien firearm issue was not the main
> intent of the bill, but is a reasonable side-effect.
>
> I would expect that the problems around this get resolved over the next
> month or so as all the new bills start to take effect.
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>
> Representative Ross Hunter
> Finance Committee Chairman
>
> 333 John L. O'Brien Building
> Capitol Campus
> Olympia, WA 98504
> (360) 786-7936 Olympia Office
> (425) 453-3064 District Office

Wish me good luck.

PS. Feel free to check the PDF attachments of the Bill HB 2955.

allserene · June 18, 2008, 04:57 PM

wow dude well done and thanks v much for posting..

I look forward with great interest to their reply

a glimmer of hope... I will send Ross Hunter a bouquet if this does the trick...

Lostone will probably buy a nuclear (It's pronounced 'Nu-cl-e-ar') shelter if we LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENTS are allowed a 22 single shot rifle for some sunday morning target plinking (after chuch of course), but it means that the number of properly licensed shooters in Washington State will increase and that can't be a negative for the responsible lawful gun lobby as a whole, even if Lostone fears for his life and his family and his country and his heritage and his way of life and his privileges as a consequence

The vast majority of States allows Aliens rights and they have not been threatened with extinction by lawful responsible ALIENS - their main concern is gas prices

Alan

allserene · June 19, 2008, 11:18 AM

Bad news - got a reply from DOL firearms section - the new legislation changes nothing and we must wait for next year

Seems the legislators don't know what they are legislating

The inability to organise a good time in a brewery springs to mind

Yellowfin · June 19, 2008, 12:09 PM

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the title of this is that I wonder what Sigourney Weaver has to say.

allserene · June 19, 2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the title of this is that I wonder what Sigourney Weaver has to say.

I know ! If those aren't alien eyes then I don't know what are !

She should be reclassified as an alien just to make sure

Do you realise that the Queen is an alien !

Can you see the headline - 'George Bush meets an alien' (More like Queen meets an alien)

Can't see the Queen coming to Washington anyway - but she would like to bag the occassional marmot with her .410 and she wouldn't be allowed

'Queen on felony charge for caressing Washington Governor's weapon'

and if she arrived on a public holiday she would find the 'State Liquor Stores' closed

No booze and no sport - 'One would like to go to Texas or Florida which are far more modern and civilised wouldn't you say Philip'

I live on the East side of the montains so I expect it to be a bit hicky and I don't mind really and it was my choice to settle here despite the old fashioned laws (firewater for the Indians !), but how the Seattle space age Boeing/Microsoft lot put up with it I don't know...

texasT · June 25, 2008, 01:12 PM

quoted from Allserene:
"Bad news - got a reply from DOL firearms section - the new legislation changes nothing and we must wait for next year

Seems the legislators don't know what they are legislating."
*************************

As this email from WA Stat Rep. Ross Hunter in the above post says:
"I would expect that the problems around this get resolved over the next
month or so as all the new bills start to take effect."

Seeing as that post is dated June 18 and he said a month to take effect, I would give it two months.

Hopefully by August the DOL will have been instructed to comply. I too have been waiting a few years for this.

May 23, 2008, 05:09 PM	#104
JayCee Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2001 Posts: 494	I just want to know where it says in the Bill of Rights that immigrants who have been lawfully admitted to the United States don't have the same rights as US citizens, including but not limited to the right to free speech, the right to a trial by jury, the right against self incrimination, the right to freely exercise their religion, and the right to keep and bear arms. __________________ “You may all go to hell and I will go to Texas.” – David Crockett “If I owned Texas and hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in hell.” - General Phillip H. Sheridan

June 18, 2008, 04:57 PM	#121
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	wow dude well done and thanks v much for posting.. I look forward with great interest to their reply a glimmer of hope... I will send Ross Hunter a bouquet if this does the trick... Lostone will probably buy a nuclear (It's pronounced 'Nu-cl-e-ar') shelter if we LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENTS are allowed a 22 single shot rifle for some sunday morning target plinking (after chuch of course), but it means that the number of properly licensed shooters in Washington State will increase and that can't be a negative for the responsible lawful gun lobby as a whole, even if Lostone fears for his life and his family and his country and his heritage and his way of life and his privileges as a consequence The vast majority of States allows Aliens rights and they have not been threatened with extinction by lawful responsible ALIENS - their main concern is gas prices Alan Last edited by allserene; June 18, 2008 at 06:02 PM.

June 19, 2008, 12:09 PM	#123
Yellowfin Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2007 Location: Lancaster Co, PA Posts: 2,311	The first thing that came to my mind when I saw the title of this is that I wonder what Sigourney Weaver has to say. __________________ Students for Concealed Carry on Campus http://www.concealedcampus.org "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" - Penn Jillette

May 23, 2008, 04:14 PM	#102
nobody_special Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: Southwest US Posts: 277	I don't see the US government handing out guns to everyday US citizens, either.

May 23, 2008, 05:04 PM	#103
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	The word people refers to US citizens, the founding fathers never for-saw all these illegals coming into the country. If the Washington department of licensing or the U.S. government can't tell the difference between a genuine legal green card and a mexican forgery then there is no hope for anyone here but believe me when I say they CAN ! Only the owners of meat packing factories and apple orchards seem to have problems distinguishing forgeries from the real thing I am as legal as anyone in the USA and I have had FBI and CIA checks twice and deep investigations into me and my family and personal interviews at the U.S. Embassy in London and medicals and mental health assessments in order to get a genuine legal green card. I have been measured and weighed and fingerprinted and photographed and had blood samples taken. All that is something that most gun owners in Washington State cannot say and I wonder how many of them would pass that degree of scrutiny ?

May 23, 2008, 05:12 PM	#105
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	just for light relief - I wish it would stop raining here so could get my canoe on Lake Chelan and exercise my right to shorts, tennis shoes and bare arms

May 23, 2008, 05:20 PM	#106
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	The bureaucrats in Washington are all incompetent, we have the best military in the world and we cant even secure our borders, you think they will be able to do any better when it comes to checking green-cards?

May 23, 2008, 05:42 PM	#107
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	but the bureaucrats are American Citizens - and they are incompetent ? and they are allowed to have guns ? But Tony Blair can't shoot clay pigeons on a Sunday morning without committing a deportable (after jail) felony Actually you will find that legal green card owners are more anti-illegals than anyone else. When we see these people just walking in after the hell we were put through to get legal residence then it makes our blood boil. My buddy has lived in Atlanta for years and was held in detention at the airport because unknown to him, his visa extension letter only allowed him to stay longer as a resident and not to leave and come back. He was carrying the letter and his visa . He was frog marched to a cash machine by two agents to pay a large on the spot cash fine before being allowed to continue to his wife and family and job and house in Atlanta. Now ok that's in the rules but compare that to how real illegals are given driver's licenses etc etc The U.S. should toughen up on illegals and ease up on people who are here with the approval of the government and who are fully law abiding It's all the wrong way round I am sat here complaining about not being allowed to shoot but the bad guys just shrug and are out there buying illegal guns and dont care - they wont post on here even with their stolen computer and they are the problem not me

May 23, 2008, 05:52 PM	#109
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	Oh I don't disagree, all illegal immigrants need to be extracted from this country through any means. But I just personally believe only US citizens should be able to own fire-arms in the US, once you become an actual US citizen you should be able to own any fire-arm you want, but until then you shouldn't be able to.

May 23, 2008, 06:07 PM	#112
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	The supreme court quote you referenced has no impact, it says the the constitution applies to those with sufficient connection to this country. Just moving here doesn't produce a sufficient connection.

May 23, 2008, 06:11 PM	#113
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	Lostone If Mrs Bush goes to London and is invited on a pheasant shoot with queen elizabeth, how would it go down if she were charged with a felony if she accepts ? Mrs bush seems quite pleasant and harmless enough and I as a British citizen would not be against her shooting on the same terms as everyone else I wouldn't let GW have a gun but that's nothing to do with his immigration status or nationality American Citizens are totally equal with British citizens there so why not reciprocate ?

May 23, 2008, 06:20 PM	#115
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	lol, England isn't America and laws in England should have no effect on American laws, if it did we would be trying to ban knives. Americans and foreigners aren't equal, thats just my opinion. Once you go through the proccess of becoming an American you will be, but to simply enter a country and think you are the same is incorrect in my view. I certainly have allot more respect for legal Aliens though. Also, try going to a European country wearing a T-Shirt with the US flag, you certainly won't be treated equal.

May 23, 2008, 06:27 PM	#116
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	equal under the law is the thing I have been spat at and called a SAXON in Wales and had my fishing float shot at in Scotland when they saw my english number plate - we can't educate everyone

May 23, 2008, 06:40 PM	#117
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	haha, Maybe if your country allowed guns you could have shot back

May 23, 2008, 06:50 PM	#118
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	the Uk allows all guns except machine guns and hand guns but the police will question your neighbours about you before you get a license to make sure you are not a nut or a drunk or a crack fiend.You will be required to have hardwood inner doors in your house and a burglar alarm link to the police station and an approved steel gun cabinet bolted into the structure of the house The only Americans who would accept that are the parents of those killed by such people I have been a member of a rifle cub and I have owned a semi automatic pistol and a rifle and a 12 bore shotgun and used a .303 Lee Enfield in the Police force - but my response to someone shooting at my fishing float would not be to blow their head off - call it a cultural difference but it makes me a better bet as a safe gun owner perhaps after a few years in the U.S. I will start to think like that - but will it be an improvement and a civilizing advance for mankind ? Will I be a better person ?

May 23, 2008, 06:54 PM	#119
LostOne Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2008 Posts: 157	If somone wants to kill you, you should have the right to blow there head off but thats just my opinion. They show no regard to your safety, there is no reason you should show any to theres.

June 19, 2008, 11:18 AM	#122
allserene Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: Wenatchee, Washington State Posts: 50	Bad news - got a reply from DOL firearms section - the new legislation changes nothing and we must wait for next year Seems the legislators don't know what they are legislating The inability to organise a good time in a brewery springs to mind

June 25, 2008, 01:12 PM	#125
texasT Junior Member Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 2	quoted from Allserene: "Bad news - got a reply from DOL firearms section - the new legislation changes nothing and we must wait for next year Seems the legislators don't know what they are legislating." ************************* As this email from WA Stat Rep. Ross Hunter in the above post says: "I would expect that the problems around this get resolved over the next month or so as all the new bills start to take effect." Seeing as that post is dated June 18 and he said a month to take effect, I would give it two months. Hopefully by August the DOL will have been instructed to comply. I too have been waiting a few years for this.