Obtaining an alien firearms license - WA State

[allserene]

Yes big confusion all round...

It seems a bit strange that they need 2 months to put their own legislation into practice and I don't know who is going to instruct the DOL as to what the legislation means

The lady at DOL seemed pretty firm that they had looked at it all ways up and the new legislation would have no effect on firearm's licenses

She seemed very much aware of it and said the dept had discussed it and tried all sorts of angles but the problem was still there

Let's hope she is wrong and something moves in July/August

[cubanitojr]

Bad news guys. I got this response from Rep. Ross Hunter. Apparently she called the WA DOL office. Lets hope for the best.

I talked to the staff as well, and I agree, the bill did not resolve the
problem, though it should have. The FBI is being a pain on this and we
may have to do something else. I have the legislative staff working on a
possible solution. I'm copying my assistant so she can track your
information as we can get back to you. It will take us a while to figure
out a solution, as we have to make the FBI reasonably happy with the
result so that we get the data.


Representative Ross Hunter
Finance Committee Chairman

333 John L. O'Brien Building
Capitol Campus
Olympia, WA 98504
(360) 786-7936 Olympia Office
(425) 453-3064 District Office

[allserene]

Yes I think Ros underestimates what it takes to move the FBI and the DOL

I am not sure who's side the DOL is on but they seem fairly neutral

I woke up this morning and I was still half asleep and my wife shouted that Washington's gun ban had been overturned in the court

It took a while for me to realise that it was Washington DC they were talking about

Oh well, I suppose the paper targets at the Wenatchee gun club are safe for a while yet

[cubanitojr]

I really appreciate your efforts and passion you put into this issue. After reading your post I felt inspired to act. Please, feel free to email your local WA Rep. this will increase the pressure on them, to resolve this issue. They understand Green Card holders will eventually become citizens and of course, this very same WA Reps. want to secure our future potential vote, also remember, by not correcting this issue the WA state is violating the 2nd and 14th amendments which also blankets greencard holders.

Soon we may go hunting wild ferals and or target shooting in Wenatche, WA. :-)


Again,

Thanks,

PS. make sure you CC Ross Hunter.

[jg0001]

To someone surprised you can't purchase a firearm in WA without a license, guess what? Same thing applies in NJ (for full U.S. Citizens, even)

Last year, I had to wait nearly 4 months to get my "Firearms Purchaser ID Card" and two "1 time use" handgun purchaser permits. Now, the first is needed to buy any weapon, and is required for long-guns as well. The 2nd is required for EACH handgun purchase, and the 2nd expires. Also, I've noticed that some places also ask to see your Firearms Purchaser ID card just to buy AMMO. No b.s.!

So in NJ, if you want a handgun, you have to:
(1) go to your local POLICE STATION
(2) fill out the necessary forms, which are quite invasive; they also include many questions that are solely designed to let them sue you later, to which no person would ever answer "yes" -- (i.e. one of the questions is "do you have plans to overthrow the NJ government"; I guess if you were a nutjob and did try to overthrow the gov't they could add a count to your courtcase based on your form)
(3) get every finger of both hands fingerprinted
(4) pay via moneyorder (no cash) about $55
(5) provide TWO references, who must fill out a form about you AND respond to questions by the police, if asked, about you
(6) provide a WORK REFERENCE who will be contacted by the police to verify your employment (and/or find out if you're a crazy)
(7) wait a multiple of the statutory time NJ is really permitted to actually get your licenses
(8) repeat a part of the process every time you want to buy a new handgun -- while there are no limits (yet!) to how many handguns you can buy, there is an effective delay every time you want to buy one in waiting for the 'purchasing' permits (which do expire in 60-90 days)
(9) when buying a handgun, submit personal information, including socsec# to the gun dealer for yet another background check

I will say that the Detective in my area was exceptionally friendly and helpful with the process and was just as annoyed with having to go through the process as I was. He claimed the NJ state police (remember, my guy's a local cop, so he wasn't criticizing his direct brethren) was very slow in turning around the background checks/fingerprints, and there was nothing they could do about it.

Now, I can reasonably say that no self-respecting criminal is likely to sit through this process, in a police station no less, provide fingerprints so that they can be put on file, nor want to wait 3-6 months for permission to buy a weapon. So in that regard, criminals will likely look elsewhere to buy their weapons, not that they have any trouble finding them.

At the same time, law abiding citizens are put through the same process as a criminal, as if they committed a crime, just to exercise a constitutional right. The fingerprinting area used for this purpose was the same area used to book criminals. It was unnerving, to say the least.

[allserene]

That sounds as bad as the UK almost - there the Police place huge financial obstacles in the way to dissuade you. They make you pay for heavy hardwood doors inside the house and a dedicated phone line for the alarm to go through to the Police Station and special locks and steel cabinets etc etc
- it costs many thousands and is not legislated - it's just the police acting like legislators
At least a clear honest law can be challenged with success or not, but this backdoor stuff is outside the law and is beaurocrats making up deliberate delays like they were the law makers

That is just sneaky and it's undemocratic

I knew that this sort of stuff would spread to ALL shooters in ALL States and that's why I asked ALL shooter's to support green card holders to change the situation in Washington

Some US Citizens would ditch minority rights thinking that they are high and dry - but they aren't and we will ALL lose out

[MD_Willington]

I'm glad you have continued with this, I've been very busy...

HB2955 needs pressing, and I'll contact my local .gov employees.

[Inspector3711]

I live in Washington state. I'm not happy to have folks in my state demanding rights when they aren't yet citizens. You will have rights once you become a citizen. We aren't discussing human rights which you already have, we are speaking of rights that citizens of the United States have. I would think that you would be happy enough just to be here. In Snohomish County you probably don't need a self defense weapon so buy an air rifle to practice with and work on obtaining citizenship. You will have the right to buy firearms after you become a citizen. This is how it should be. A company wouldn't give a temporary employee keys. They would wait until he is a permanant employee. Everyone wants something for nothing. Get over it.

[MD_Willington]

I have contacted Representative Cathy McMorris as well.

She was helpful before in obtaining information from the FBI as to how the DOL could possibly work around the issue.

BTW, the topic over here was locked:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=297951


Also... since the Winter games are being held in Vancouver BC Canada in 2010, many athletes will not have anywhere to train for biathlon, the logical choice for them to train would be in WA State, well guess what, THEY CAN'T because of this...

So WA State is losing out on funding from the Winter Olympics...

[Inspector3711]

Oh... as an afterthought, please refrain from wasting the time of our elected officials. They certainly have more important things to work on than the imagined rights of folks that aren't citizens yet.

[texasT]

Thanks for the advice INSPECTOR.
I think we will waste as much of their time as possible anyways.
Cheers.

[allserene]

Inspector, is it ok if I suggest to my wife (Who is a born US Citizen) that she contact her representative, or would that be undue foreign influence in the workings of the U.S.A. ?

We are going to a July 4th party next week, perhaps you think I should be excluded at the gate ? Not one of the club and all that

Perhaps my wife should have a DNA blood test to see if she was related to the people on the Mayflower - their bodies are in the churchyard in Boston - we could dig em up and compare.

Actually she has Cherokee blood so perhaps it's you and your family who are alien johnny -cum- latelys in comparison

When the Police are taking your guns because you can't comply with new legislation, you will welcome support from all legal U.S. residents who are paying heavy taxes to keep US forces in Iraq

[cubanitojr]

FYI.
Greencard holders do have the right to vote on local elections, this affects our elected officials. Why do you think they bother to listen to us knowing we are not citizens? I will continue to demand my right to bear arms as a legal resident in WA and will work with officials until this is finally resolved.

By 2010 I should be a "proud" citizen of the United States and my local Reps. will have my vote.

[MD_Willington]

Two more years for me too...

[allserene]

PHP Code:

I would think that you would be happy enough just to be here 


I came from a fine country with a proud history and I haven't washed up on the shore as a grateful 3rd world escaper

I came here to be with my US Citizen wife and I don't intend to be a second class anything while I am here - no matter what the colour of my passport is.

So on the contrary, you should think yourself lucky to have me here - I bring a world perspective and all my education, wealth and foreign income to spend into the Washington State economy expecting nothing from it

I am giving to the US and taking nothing as I am retired - so I am not even 'taking' a job


I am eligible for Citizenship in November in 2 years time. I intend to take Citizenship for practical reasons, (getting a single shot .22 target rifle ?), but I wish some Americans were less aggressive and hostile to people of other Nationalities and didn't set themselves up as the new 'master race' - I would take nationality with more conviction if that were the case

The dead bodies of my family lay in military cemeteries in Europe, fighting people who called themselves - 'Nationalists' - 'nazis' for short. The least I can do is refuse to be treated as second class like the Jews were. I am not giving in to people who would treat me as an inferior being, even if they call it an 'apprenticeship'.

[Inspector3711]

Congratulations to you all when you obtain your citizenship. I'm not against any of you being in this country, you (and my great grandparents) are a big part of what makes this country great. I do however believe that there are many more important issues that deserve a higher priority in our government.

I have friends and neighbors that have alien status. They all happen to realize that they need to obtain citizenship before they have rights as a US citizen. They don't expect to receive a drivers license with completing a course and passing a test for example. Why on earth would they expect to be able to buy a firearm without being a citizen? Why would they be outraged and upset? They already are aware of the fact that they haven't become citizens yet. They know that soon they will have those rights. There are procedures in place to insure this.

[allserene]

I passed my motorcycle test in Florida and my car test in Wisconsin - exactly the same as a citizen.

I want to live my life and follow my interests exactly like anyone else.

If I can be allowed to drive, then why not a single shot .22 target rifle ?

I could kill a lot more people with my V6 Toyota in downtown Seattle if I chose to

US Citizens are treated as equals in the UK. If the people in the UK knew how US Citizens want to treat them here in the US, the US military in the UK could have their rights withdrawn.

Actually that would not happen because the UK is a mature country and all this was sorted out hundreds of years ago - they realised that having different classes of people with different rights was simply not fair and led to conflict. The UK would not go back to treating people differently. No confederate pro-slavery flags there

Actually there is one difference - a Catholic cannot become Monarch. I think that's disgraceful and a throw back. Hows about we allow Catholics to be Monarch in exchange for me getting a .22

Even Citizens are graded into first and second class in the USA - eg Arnold cannot become president - so the suspicion never goes way - it's built in

Distrust and suspicion of foreigners is a prime indicator of a primitive and inward looking and backward society and the US needs to shed that. I suppose with only 40% of US Citizens having a passport, that big world out there must seem scary

They were talking about a new plane that would go 10,000 miles an hour on cnn this morning. The bimbo said 'wow we could get from new york to tampa in a few minutes' - no suggestion of how they could get to europe or australia or asia and it would open up the world ..

So inward looking

My parents were from a more rural place and warned me about people from the city 10 miles way. These people were different to us and didnt have our ways and were not to be trusted - my mother called them 'townies'. So I came upon small town primitive thinking at an early age and I am no stranger to it and I know it comes from lack of education and/or experience of the world and just plain ignorance

If you and I walked into any US City center at 2am tomorrow and I pointed out the people hanging round there (nearly all US Citizens), and asked you whether I or they should be handed a gun right now, I wonder if your call would be the same ?

[MD_Willington]

My local reps just contacted me, they are on board with this...

[cubanitojr]

Allserene.

We DO HAVE the right to bear arms as greencard holders in WA. The process of obtaining the AFL is truncated by the failure of the DOL of not meeting the FBI criminal background check requirements.

It would be really interesting to see if the WA state criminally charge a current AFL holder that will expire per say tomorrow, this person will be in violation of the law but at the same time can not renew his AFL.

I think this would open doors for civil action against the WA state.

[allserene]

Don't risk it Cubanitojr because their eyes go glassy and they go into automaton (I am not programmed to respond it that area) mode.

They would execute a terrier if someone spelled it's collar tag as terrorist

They are programmed to command and we must obey

Sound familiar ?

[cubanitojr]

The saga continues...

I just sent this email tho Ross Hunter. I think, it may help in her efforts.

Dear Ross,

I found this letter from the FBI. Apparently the DOL does have access to criminal records by fingerprints and they also want access to ICE databases. This letter outlines how the DOL may proceed to access the ICE databases to identify aliens status and extra info. on criminal records for greencard holders this is none-sense since it is impossible to hold a greencard with criminal records. Again, this may clarify the AFL issue, but I personally believe green card holders should not require an AFL (just like in the other 49 states), AFLs may only apply to non-immigrant aliens like, sports events visitors, visa holders or foreign security personal.

Is the WA state criminally charging currently expired AFLs holders? They do possess firearms, but are unable to renew their licenses. I am just curious.

Again, thanks for all your efforts.

[allserene]

Nice one - as a GC holder I would feel bad for respectable non GC holders but it would open the door and be a start..

As you say, GC people have been more deeply documented and fingerprinted and weighed and measured and photographed and FBI checked than any US Citizen - and they have our blood too !

[MD_Willington]

Yep, that's the letter I got back from Cathy McMorris Rogers & the FBI.

In fact it is sitting right here beside me, next to the letters from Cantwell & Murray.

The letter does have a contact on it.


I'll probably call the office today.


Regarding background checks, they really do have everything on us, even full access to our medical records, we agree to let them have those records right on the License form.

[cubanitojr]

What do you guys think?

I would really like go hunting for wild pigs in the Oregon area. My girlfriend lives down there.

Would it be legal to obtain a Oregon hunting license, purchase the rifle down there (since AFLs are not required), hunt and keep the gun in Oregon state?

Certainly it would not be a violation of the WA state law since everything would be done in Oregon. But I am not sure if any Federal laws would be broken.

Any ideas?

[allserene]

I know women and they would read that second line the wrong way !

I reckon you are clear on Washington law but I don't know about Oregon and whether you need to be a resident there in order to possess a firearm there... it's about reciprocal agreements between states very often