Cop Killer bullets?

Armando B · November 21, 2002, 11:31 AM

I guess I've been doing so much Cowboy Action shooting that I'm out of the loop...?

This anti-gun sheep I know was on a diatribe recently and was whining about

"....those who, with their cold, dead fingers, protect the rights of wife abusers, gun runners to criminals, purchasers of cop killer bullets, and sellers of bomb making equipment and instruction manuals at gun shows."

What are "cop killing bullets"? I thought this was all taken care of several years ago?

What the hec are they calling "Cop Killer" bullets now?

Bogie · November 21, 2002, 11:48 AM

What you wanna do is explain the saga of the "cop killer bullet" to 'em.

A few years back, a company called KTW, which was owned by a law enforcement guy (retired?) marketed a bullet that would penetrate a kevlar vest.

Since he didn't want bad guys to get 'em, he sold them only to police departments and the military.

Some congresscritter heard about the "armor piercing bullet" (who was it?) and immediately threw his office into a tizzy cranking out press releases, etc., about the "cop killer" bullets. Much stinko was made in Washington.

What resulted was that the average creep on the street found out that cops wear bullet proof vests, and cops started getting shot in the head a LOT more than they had in the past. The congresscritter got his publicity, and cops got dead.

spacemanspiff · November 21, 2002, 12:21 PM

some of the ignorant fools i've come across think that a hollowpoint is a 'cop-killer'. they dont know the difference, and are unaware that JHP's in handgun calibers have such a minute chance of penetrating any body armor.

ZekeLuvs1911 · November 21, 2002, 12:27 PM

They used to call the hollowpoint bullet a dum dum rd aka the cop killer bullet. Also stories abound about how teflon coated bullets goes right through a vest.

See the movie Ronin for that bit. Anyway, few sheeple know that the HP rd is actually a more "humane" rd for self defense.

Bogie · November 21, 2002, 01:10 PM

The reason the KTW was coated with teflon wasn't to aid in penetration - it was because it was made of a hardened material, and would otherwise tear the heck out of rifling (bet it'd do wonders for ballistic fingerprinting, huh?) without the coating.

Jim V · November 21, 2002, 01:23 PM

IIRC, KTW were the initials of the inventors of the round. The original round was tungston carbide and had to be coated with something to prevent the bullets from ironing out the lands and grooves. Teflon got the nod. Later they went to hardened steel bullets since they were easier to make (and cheaper). The idea was not to produce a bullet that would go through vests so much, since there was very little criminal usage of body armor at the time, but to produce a bullet that would allow a police officer to shoot through hard cover if needed.

To date, AFIK, NO American law enforcement officer has been shot and killed with a KTW round. After the television program, either 20/20 or 60 Minutes, there were police officers killed that were shot through the head because the bad guys knew of the concealable body armor being worn.

I would think that a bullet that does not deform and passes through the body would be better to be shot with than one that expands and remains in the body. (Assuming that no major organs are struck of course)

dinosaur · November 21, 2002, 02:04 PM

Bogie;

Mario Biaggi, highly decorated NYC Police Officer, Bronx Congressman and convicted felon.

Pendragon · November 21, 2002, 06:23 PM

re: FMJ vs JHP "humane"

The idea is not that a JHP is more pleasant to get hit with vs a FMJ - not so.

The idea is that if you neet to "stop" someone, the odds are that perhaps only 1 or 2 hits with a JHP are necessary where you might need many many hits with FMJ because there is less "shock" and less energy transfer.

The multiple holes delivered by the many FMJ rounds are thought to be more likely fatal than a few well placed JHPs.

Personally, I think the humaneness of the bullet is of less concern than the effectiveness. But I think this line of thinking has some merit - especially if the extra damage potential of the JHP is brought up in court to show how "you just wanted to kill someone".

Double Naught Spy · November 21, 2002, 08:00 PM

Funny thing about cop killing hollowpoint bullets fired from handguns, even some cops believe that the rounds will pierce body armor. There are a couple of episodes from the show COPS where hollowpoint ammo is said by a cop to be able to pierce armor. One was an episode in NJ. Apparently, the cop had never seen what happens when a hollowpoint tries to penetrate body armor. If fired straight on, the hollow point mouth hole tends to try to close up and the bullet mushrooms from the girdle, not the mouth. The mouth ends up being pretty small, but the bullet still expands, and does NOT penetrate. The second Fugitive movie with Tommy Lee Jones has his character shot while wearing a vest. Later in the movie, he is shown fiddling with the rounds taken from his vest. Apparently, they did actually shoot rounds into a vest as they appeared to be deformed in the correct/expected manner.

Gorthaur · November 21, 2002, 08:49 PM

Here's a good summary:

http://www.guncite.com/gcgvcopk.html

MikeTx · November 21, 2002, 08:50 PM

What about fireman killer bullets? I heard those weren't as bad.

Matthew Courtney · November 21, 2002, 08:56 PM

Current attempts to ban "cop killer" bullets aim to ban high powered rifle ammo as many normal high power rifle bullets will penetrate bullet proof vests. It is really just another backdoor approach toward disarming law abiding citizens. The number of Felonies committed against LEO's with high powered rifles remains statistically insignificant.

November 21, 2002, 11:31 AM	#1
Armando B Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2002 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 162	Cop Killer bullets? I guess I've been doing so much Cowboy Action shooting that I'm out of the loop...? This anti-gun sheep I know was on a diatribe recently and was whining about "....those who, with their cold, dead fingers, protect the rights of wife abusers, gun runners to criminals, purchasers of cop killer bullets, and sellers of bomb making equipment and instruction manuals at gun shows." What are "cop killing bullets"? I thought this was all taken care of several years ago? What the hec are they calling "Cop Killer" bullets now? __________________ SASS, NRA, GOA High Country Cowboys (NC)

November 21, 2002, 11:48 AM	#2
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	What you wanna do is explain the saga of the "cop killer bullet" to 'em. A few years back, a company called KTW, which was owned by a law enforcement guy (retired?) marketed a bullet that would penetrate a kevlar vest. Since he didn't want bad guys to get 'em, he sold them only to police departments and the military. Some congresscritter heard about the "armor piercing bullet" (who was it?) and immediately threw his office into a tizzy cranking out press releases, etc., about the "cop killer" bullets. Much stinko was made in Washington. What resulted was that the average creep on the street found out that cops wear bullet proof vests, and cops started getting shot in the head a LOT more than they had in the past. The congresscritter got his publicity, and cops got dead. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

November 21, 2002, 12:21 PM	#3
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	some of the ignorant fools i've come across think that a hollowpoint is a 'cop-killer'. they dont know the difference, and are unaware that JHP's in handgun calibers have such a minute chance of penetrating any body armor. __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

November 21, 2002, 12:27 PM	#4
ZekeLuvs1911 Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: Avenel, NJ Posts: 204	They used to call the hollowpoint bullet a dum dum rd aka the cop killer bullet. Also stories abound about how teflon coated bullets goes right through a vest. See the movie Ronin for that bit. Anyway, few sheeple know that the HP rd is actually a more "humane" rd for self defense. __________________ "God created man and woman, Colonel Colt made them equals."

November 21, 2002, 01:10 PM	#5
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	The reason the KTW was coated with teflon wasn't to aid in penetration - it was because it was made of a hardened material, and would otherwise tear the heck out of rifling (bet it'd do wonders for ballistic fingerprinting, huh?) without the coating. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

November 21, 2002, 01:23 PM	#6
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	IIRC, KTW were the initials of the inventors of the round. The original round was tungston carbide and had to be coated with something to prevent the bullets from ironing out the lands and grooves. Teflon got the nod. Later they went to hardened steel bullets since they were easier to make (and cheaper). The idea was not to produce a bullet that would go through vests so much, since there was very little criminal usage of body armor at the time, but to produce a bullet that would allow a police officer to shoot through hard cover if needed. To date, AFIK, NO American law enforcement officer has been shot and killed with a KTW round. After the television program, either 20/20 or 60 Minutes, there were police officers killed that were shot through the head because the bad guys knew of the concealable body armor being worn. I would think that a bullet that does not deform and passes through the body would be better to be shot with than one that expands and remains in the body. (Assuming that no major organs are struck of course) __________________ *MOLON LABE* If it ain't metal, single stack & single action, it ain't a 1911 no matter what it looks like. 1911 Forum THE TUBBY CURMUDGEON

November 21, 2002, 02:04 PM	#7
dinosaur Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1999 Location: NE Pa. Posts: 1,245	Bogie; Mario Biaggi, highly decorated NYC Police Officer, Bronx Congressman and convicted felon.

November 21, 2002, 06:23 PM	#8
Pendragon Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,153	re: FMJ vs JHP "humane" The idea is not that a JHP is more pleasant to get hit with vs a FMJ - not so. The idea is that if you neet to "stop" someone, the odds are that perhaps only 1 or 2 hits with a JHP are necessary where you might need many many hits with FMJ because there is less "shock" and less energy transfer. The multiple holes delivered by the many FMJ rounds are thought to be more likely fatal than a few well placed JHPs. Personally, I think the humaneness of the bullet is of less concern than the effectiveness. But I think this line of thinking has some merit - especially if the extra damage potential of the JHP is brought up in court to show how "you just wanted to kill someone".

November 21, 2002, 08:00 PM	#9
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Funny thing about cop killing hollowpoint bullets fired from handguns, even some cops believe that the rounds will pierce body armor. There are a couple of episodes from the show COPS where hollowpoint ammo is said by a cop to be able to pierce armor. One was an episode in NJ. Apparently, the cop had never seen what happens when a hollowpoint tries to penetrate body armor. If fired straight on, the hollow point mouth hole tends to try to close up and the bullet mushrooms from the girdle, not the mouth. The mouth ends up being pretty small, but the bullet still expands, and does NOT penetrate. The second Fugitive movie with Tommy Lee Jones has his character shot while wearing a vest. Later in the movie, he is shown fiddling with the rounds taken from his vest. Apparently, they did actually shoot rounds into a vest as they appeared to be deformed in the correct/expected manner. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

November 21, 2002, 08:49 PM	#10
Gorthaur Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2000 Posts: 846	Here's a good summary: http://www.guncite.com/gcgvcopk.html __________________ 911 - Gov't-sponsored dial-a-prayer! Support the US Olympic Shooting Team! Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

November 21, 2002, 08:50 PM	#11
MikeTx Junior member Join Date: December 19, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 227	What about fireman killer bullets? I heard those weren't as bad.

November 21, 2002, 08:56 PM	#12
Matthew Courtney Member Join Date: November 4, 2002 Location: Lake Charles, Louisiana Posts: 82	Current attempts to ban "cop killer" bullets aim to ban high powered rifle ammo as many normal high power rifle bullets will penetrate bullet proof vests. It is really just another backdoor approach toward disarming law abiding citizens. The number of Felonies committed against LEO's with high powered rifles remains statistically insignificant. __________________ I'd rather have my gun and not need it than need it and not have it.