Accuracy/Sighting/Stance Advice...

(BH) · May 3, 2009, 02:33 PM

ok im not a complete beginner, but im by no means a marksman or expert. i was hoping that i could get some tips or advice on sighting, stance, and anything else to make me better. i typically use my own strange variation of a weaver stance currently.

im actually a decent shot, but i really want to get better and i dont really know anyone to ask for tips. i can usually get steady 2" groups at 15 yds. when im not firing too fast. its once i start rapid firing or when i go for 25 yd shots my accuracy declines substantially.

i saw a post on here recently that showed the regions of a target and the different areas that the bullets hit and diagnosed the problem. if anyone could post me one of those that would be great because i cant seem to find one.

any advice is welcome. im interested in how to focus on longer shots, steadiness and positioning tips but anything you want to tell me that could make me any better is more than welcome.

Jim March · May 3, 2009, 03:24 PM

Are you by any chance cross-dominant? In other words, right-handed, left eyed or vice versa?

If so, I've got a tip for you...

Also, are you shooting from a Weaver or Isosceles right now?

(BH) · May 3, 2009, 04:13 PM

i use weaver, but im not sure that i use it correctly.

how do you know if you're cross dominant? i can shoot the same either way, but i thought cross dominant shooting was incorrect so i shoot right handed/right eye.

Jim March · May 4, 2009, 03:00 AM

If you CAN use either eye, from a Weaver try the left - and cram your right cheek down onto your right bicep. This is what rifle guys call a "cheek weld" and it makes everything more stable.

It's not so good for fast combat shooting, it's more for longer range target work.

Your hand position matters a lot, and that varies by gun. In a classic Weaver you should be pushing with your strong hand, pulling with your weak, 60% of your grip strength in your strong hand, 40% weak.

Don't "cup" your strong hand with your weak - fingers of both hands should be horizontal, weak-hand fingers over strong. Some advocate putting the weak-hand index finger at the outer edge of the triggerguard, and you'll see guns with squared-off front triggerguards to help that work (mostly autos).

MOST say put one thumb "over the other", strong on top of weak. If it's a 1911 pattern, they should be stacked up over the safety.

Keltyke · May 4, 2009, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Don't "cup" your strong hand with your weak - fingers of both hands should be horizontal, weak-hand fingers over strong.

Pushing out with the strong hand while pulling in with the weak will help a lot, too. Sort of like an isometric exercise. While your grip does need to be tight, don't take a "death lock" that makes your hands tremble. If you're having to regrip and/or adjust your stance after each shot, you might consider different grips or a different gun.

I use the Weaver. I'm a lefty. My arms are slightly to the right while my body is angled slightly to the left. My right foot is slightly ahead of my left and the left is turned slightly outwards whilethe right is basically straight. My arms are pulled in slightly and my head is cocked a little to the left side to bring my eye down closer to the sights. I get the sight picture with both eyes open while bringing the gun up, then close my off (right) eye and focus on the front sight with my left. It might sound awkward, but it's quite comfortable, accurate, and a natural position to assume when drawing. Turning and hunching slightly like that also presents a smaller target to the attacker.

All that being said...the absolute BEST stance for YOU is the one you're the most accurate with. PD guns, grips, calibers, stances, etc., are all very personal choices.

MrBorland · May 4, 2009, 10:00 AM

I'll offer a few thoughts, in no particular order:

1. Stance: As mentioned, it seems to be personal. For me, isosceles works well. The push/pull thing has never worked for me. To be accurate, you have to be consistent from shot to shot, and I find it's tough to push & pull with exactly the same consistency between shots. For me, an isosceles stance with a neutral grip works well. Imagine your 2-handed grip holding a piece of paper, such that the paper is held firmly, but doesn't rip. Again, though, experiment, but keep in mind that what works for you is best.

2. Target: Decide what form of shooting you'll be practicing, then practice it, and use an appropriate target. If you're going to work on your marksmanship, you might use an NRA B-4 target, for example. I included a link to a few you can simply print. Don't place a silhouette at 25 yards, then try to shoot nice tight groups.

http://dotclue.org/targets

3. Front sight: You've probably heard this before, but it bears repeating - Watch your front sight. At all times. Ask yourself if you watched it with undivided attention. Did you just think you were watching it just because the target was blurry? Maybe you just weren't looking at anything at all. Did you watch it during recoil? What did it do? How was your sight alignment the instant the trigger broke? If you know, you'd already know where the shot hit (that's why the target ironically really doesn't matter and why dry fire is so powerful).

4. Peaking: Related to point #3. Do NOT "peak" at the target between shots. This is surprisingly difficult to avoid. Just grip and raise the gun, obtain a good sight picture, focus on the front sight, and take aimed deliberate shots. If you're peaking at the target in between shots, you're taking your concentration off the front sight. Watch your front sight. At all times. If you peak, you're also likely to adjust your grip, and/or lower the gun. For these reasons, peaking at the target is a real accuracy killer. If you're using Shoot-NC targets, I suggest you don't - the temptation to peak is just too high.

5. Dry fire at home often. Whether you're practicing combat action type shooting, or working on your marksmanship, most of what you need to practice can be practiced at home via dry fire. Range visits are fun, but I also use them to evaluate how well I've been practicing at home. If I haven't been practicing at home, I'm not as motivated to get to the range. For accuracy work at home, tape up a target, aim and just dry fire while focusing on the front sight and trigger control. A good air pistol is helpful, too.

6. Charts: Others may disagree, but I've never thought much of those diagnostic charts. Your front sight tells you everything you need to know, but you just have to watch it.

7. Accuracy during rapid fire: Watch your front sight. At all times. Not trying to be funny here, but accuracy radically falls off as you shoot faster because you stop really aiming. I recall Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, wrote on his forum that you can never get around the fundamentals (sight picture & trigger control), but that you just apply them faster. A good double tap, then, isn't just pulling the trigger twice as fast as possible - it's 2 separate aimed shots in succession.

8. There's some good (and not-so-good) on-line reading available. There are some good books, too. A couple of the best include the USAMU Manual and A Pistol Shooter's Treasury. You can probably find a free pdf copy of the AMU manual on-line somewhere. I know individual chapters are available at bullseyepistol.com, which is also chocked full of good info.

Jim March · May 4, 2009, 03:46 PM

Quote:

3. Front sight: You've probably heard this before, but it bears repeating - Watch your front sight.

Um. Yeah...about that.

There is a heretical counter-notion to that in which a gunsmith in Sedona invented an iron sight system (no glass, no optics) that can be used with BOTH front sight and rear blurry, focusing on the target with both eyes open.

I believe it's a total revolution in handgun usage.

For more on that, see also the longest thread I've posted on it:

http://www.arizonashooting.com/v3/vi...p?f=36&t=69648

RangeLogger · May 5, 2009, 09:09 PM

Here are a couple of good threads on firing line about drills and sighting in:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=349909

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t+anticipation

One of the threads has a target with the "problem zones" pointed out. I think that is what you were referring to.

Also, here is a link to a blog about choosing the right stance and practicing for the real-world:

http://www.rangelog.com/Community/Th...3/Default.aspx

WESHOOT2 · May 13, 2009, 07:41 AM

Visit the www.uspsa.org site and use the "club finder" function to do so (at least one club WILL be 'local' to you).

Go.
Watch. Ask. Join. Learn.

Oh, and have fun.

That's my advice; compete regularly in USPSA competition, giving your shooting purpose.

ECHOONE · May 13, 2009, 09:23 AM

I'm a vet who has shot just about everything that can be shot, I use to use both the weaver and iscosloes stances until I came across the most updated stance and shooting technique now being taught to SOF and Elite LEO, The C.A.R. technique, you can self instruct and learn on your own by going to this site SABRETACTICAL.COM. Real basic rund own : your stance is bladed sideways,if you right handed you use right hand shoot using left eye,tilting shooting hand about 20% to lock wrist,straight with forearm in this manner there is no felt recoil! makes for more accurate shooting with less fatigue.Pail castle is an awesome guy with amazing knowledge,he self tutored me and I find the C.A.R. system far superior then anything taught to me in the service!!!!

Mello2u · May 13, 2009, 09:47 AM

Quote:

(BH)
ok im not a complete beginner, but im by no means a marksman or expert. i was hoping that i could get some tips or advice on sighting, stance, and anything else to make me better. i typically use my own strange variation of a weaver stance currently.

im actually a decent shot, but i really want to get better and i dont really know anyone to ask for tips. i can usually get steady 2" groups at 15 yds. when im not firing too fast. its once i start rapid firing or when i go for 25 yd shots my accuracy declines substantially.

i saw a post on here recently that showed the regions of a target and the different areas that the bullets hit and diagnosed the problem. if anyone could post me one of those that would be great because i cant seem to find one.

any advice is welcome. im interested in how to focus on longer shots, steadiness and positioning tips but anything you want to tell me that could make me any better is more than welcome.

The Weaver stance is designed for defensive shooting. It is to deliver controlled shots with reasonable accuracy as fast as possible at combat ranges. The "off-hand" or weak hand is pulling against the strong hand (isometrics) to help control muzzle flip and get back on target faster. Greater weight is on the forward foot and with a slight lean towards the target too.

It could be argued that combat distances are 10 yards and under. As distance increases it become more difficult to hit accurately and therefore it takes more time to shoot accurately as distance increases. Some teachers such as Jeff Cooper teach going prone at distances of 25 yards and greater.

Your focus on longer shots may require you to focus on a balance between relaxation to avoid fatigue, breath control, muscle control and focus on the front sight. Take your time. Think of "following through" after the shot. Hold your position. Visualize the bullet going into the center of the target.

You have to train the fine motor skills of your shooting hand to isolate the muscles which cause the trigger finger to adduct (press the trigger) without causing the rest of the finger to also adduct (close tighter). The index finger shares some muscles with some other fingers of the hand. One exercise to practice is to place a coin on the slide or barrel of your empty gun and dry fire. When you can do this without causing the coin to fall off or move you are doing well.

drjjpdc · May 13, 2009, 01:21 PM

Mello,

That is a GREAT target diagram of common errors! All of us less than perfect shooters should commit it to memory. Thanks.

(BH) · May 14, 2009, 03:39 PM

mello2u,
that was the exact target/chart i was talking about, and some appreciated advice. thanks alot.

May 3, 2009, 02:33 PM	#1
(BH) Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: East TN Posts: 638	Accuracy/Sighting/Stance Advice... ok im not a complete beginner, but im by no means a marksman or expert. i was hoping that i could get some tips or advice on sighting, stance, and anything else to make me better. i typically use my own strange variation of a weaver stance currently. im actually a decent shot, but i really want to get better and i dont really know anyone to ask for tips. i can usually get steady 2" groups at 15 yds. when im not firing too fast. its once i start rapid firing or when i go for 25 yd shots my accuracy declines substantially. i saw a post on here recently that showed the regions of a target and the different areas that the bullets hit and diagnosed the problem. if anyone could post me one of those that would be great because i cant seem to find one. any advice is welcome. im interested in how to focus on longer shots, steadiness and positioning tips but anything you want to tell me that could make me any better is more than welcome.

May 3, 2009, 03:24 PM	#2
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	Are you by any chance cross-dominant? In other words, right-handed, left eyed or vice versa? If so, I've got a tip for you... Also, are you shooting from a Weaver or Isosceles right now? __________________ Jim March

May 4, 2009, 03:00 AM	#4
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	If you CAN use either eye, from a Weaver try the left - and cram your right cheek down onto your right bicep. This is what rifle guys call a "cheek weld" and it makes everything more stable. It's not so good for fast combat shooting, it's more for longer range target work. Your hand position matters a lot, and that varies by gun. In a classic Weaver you should be pushing with your strong hand, pulling with your weak, 60% of your grip strength in your strong hand, 40% weak. Don't "cup" your strong hand with your weak - fingers of both hands should be horizontal, weak-hand fingers over strong. Some advocate putting the weak-hand index finger at the outer edge of the triggerguard, and you'll see guns with squared-off front triggerguards to help that work (mostly autos). MOST say put one thumb "over the other", strong on top of weak. If it's a 1911 pattern, they should be stacked up over the safety. __________________ Jim March

May 5, 2009, 09:09 PM	#8
RangeLogger Junior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Posts: 13	Some Links Here are a couple of good threads on firing line about drills and sighting in: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=349909 http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t+anticipation One of the threads has a target with the "problem zones" pointed out. I think that is what you were referring to. Also, here is a link to a blog about choosing the right stance and practicing for the real-world: http://www.rangelog.com/Community/Th...3/Default.aspx

May 13, 2009, 07:41 AM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	blah blah blah vs action Visit the www.uspsa.org site and use the "club finder" function to do so (at least one club WILL be 'local' to you). Go. Watch. Ask. Join. Learn. Oh, and have fun. That's my advice; compete regularly in USPSA competition, giving your shooting purpose. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

May 3, 2009, 04:13 PM	#3
(BH) Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: East TN Posts: 638	i use weaver, but im not sure that i use it correctly. how do you know if you're cross dominant? i can shoot the same either way, but i thought cross dominant shooting was incorrect so i shoot right handed/right eye.

May 4, 2009, 10:00 AM	#6
MrBorland Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 2,614	I'll offer a few thoughts, in no particular order: 1. Stance: As mentioned, it seems to be personal. For me, isosceles works well. The push/pull thing has never worked for me. To be accurate, you have to be consistent from shot to shot, and I find it's tough to push & pull with exactly the same consistency between shots. For me, an isosceles stance with a neutral grip works well. Imagine your 2-handed grip holding a piece of paper, such that the paper is held firmly, but doesn't rip. Again, though, experiment, but keep in mind that what works for you is best. 2. Target: Decide what form of shooting you'll be practicing, then practice it, and use an appropriate target. If you're going to work on your marksmanship, you might use an NRA B-4 target, for example. I included a link to a few you can simply print. Don't place a silhouette at 25 yards, then try to shoot nice tight groups. http://dotclue.org/targets 3. Front sight: You've probably heard this before, but it bears repeating - Watch your front sight. At all times. Ask yourself if you watched it with undivided attention. Did you just think you were watching it just because the target was blurry? Maybe you just weren't looking at anything at all. Did you watch it during recoil? What did it do? How was your sight alignment the instant the trigger broke? If you know, you'd already know where the shot hit (that's why the target ironically really doesn't matter and why dry fire is so powerful). 4. Peaking: Related to point #3. Do NOT "peak" at the target between shots. This is surprisingly difficult to avoid. Just grip and raise the gun, obtain a good sight picture, focus on the front sight, and take aimed deliberate shots. If you're peaking at the target in between shots, you're taking your concentration off the front sight. Watch your front sight. At all times. If you peak, you're also likely to adjust your grip, and/or lower the gun. For these reasons, peaking at the target is a real accuracy killer. If you're using Shoot-NC targets, I suggest you don't - the temptation to peak is just too high. 5. Dry fire at home often. Whether you're practicing combat action type shooting, or working on your marksmanship, most of what you need to practice can be practiced at home via dry fire. Range visits are fun, but I also use them to evaluate how well I've been practicing at home. If I haven't been practicing at home, I'm not as motivated to get to the range. For accuracy work at home, tape up a target, aim and just dry fire while focusing on the front sight and trigger control. A good air pistol is helpful, too. 6. Charts: Others may disagree, but I've never thought much of those diagnostic charts. Your front sight tells you everything you need to know, but you just have to watch it. 7. Accuracy during rapid fire: Watch your front sight. At all times. Not trying to be funny here, but accuracy radically falls off as you shoot faster because you stop really aiming. I recall Brian Enos, the great practical shooter, wrote on his forum that you can never get around the fundamentals (sight picture & trigger control), but that you just apply them faster. A good double tap, then, isn't just pulling the trigger twice as fast as possible - it's 2 separate aimed shots in succession. 8. There's some good (and not-so-good) on-line reading available. There are some good books, too. A couple of the best include the USAMU Manual and A Pistol Shooter's Treasury. You can probably find a free pdf copy of the AMU manual on-line somewhere. I know individual chapters are available at bullseyepistol.com, which is also chocked full of good info.

May 13, 2009, 09:23 AM	#10
ECHOONE Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 204	Shooting I'm a vet who has shot just about everything that can be shot, I use to use both the weaver and iscosloes stances until I came across the most updated stance and shooting technique now being taught to SOF and Elite LEO, The C.A.R. technique, you can self instruct and learn on your own by going to this site SABRETACTICAL.COM. Real basic rund own : your stance is bladed sideways,if you right handed you use right hand shoot using left eye,tilting shooting hand about 20% to lock wrist,straight with forearm in this manner there is no felt recoil! makes for more accurate shooting with less fatigue.Pail castle is an awesome guy with amazing knowledge,he self tutored me and I find the C.A.R. system far superior then anything taught to me in the service!!!!

May 13, 2009, 01:21 PM	#12
drjjpdc Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: Wrightstown, NJ Posts: 181	Mello, That is a GREAT target diagram of common errors! All of us less than perfect shooters should commit it to memory. Thanks.

May 14, 2009, 03:39 PM	#13
(BH) Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: East TN Posts: 638	mello2u, that was the exact target/chart i was talking about, and some appreciated advice. thanks alot.