What makes the AK more inaccurate than an AR?

[Hedley]

I know there are some high end AK clones that do pretty well in the accuracy department, but is it something inherent in the AK's design that limits its accuracy? Is it the mass of the piston/bolt carrier and it's tendency to flex the barrel during rapid fire as opposed to the AR's gas system? I saw a slow motion video that showed the barrel flex in a wave pattern as it was fired in full auto, but why would that affect single shots? Would a heavy barrel fix this? My question is this; If Colt made an AK, would it be any better than an Arsenal or is the AK's design its own limitation?

[FS2K]

But the way the barrel is attached to an AK in relation to the handguard & gass tube causes the barrel to be effected by outside forces MORE than a standard AR15 barrel. You can free float an AR15's Barrel, not an AK's.

So yes, it is a design issue.

[SpK]

My idea is that since the AR has the higher tolerances, it seems like just by logic it would be a more accurate gun than one with a more loose action. I think this is how it's easier for an AR to jam than an AK though.

The AK design is very loose and that is why they are so reliable, but again, from what I've heard this affects accuracy negatively.

[Limeyfellow]

With standard military ammo the M16 is only required to have 4 moa when testing is done at the factory according to a guy at the FN plant on GI factory.

The AK design does have problems with that long gas piston causing problems with weight distribution though the usual problem tends to be the rather rudimentally sights, haste in putting it together, a looser design and most importantly poor ammo. When they fire match ammo things can really improve.

Of course an accurised ak47 is still not going to be on the level of an accurised ar15, but it never was designed to do so.

[joshua]

I have shot my NHM 90 and 91 with surplus ammo and reloaded ammo. Mine likes the .311 bullets instead of standard 308. Even with the best of days I've shot off the bench with it both chicom rifles can't match the accuracy of my Colt H-Bar with the standard factory issued chromed lined barrel and handguard. Close tolerance and better manufacturing/QC may have a play in it. Now I've heard of Kreb's AKs being tack drivers, due to the quality a custom gunsmith puts into it, but asking price for one is pretty stiff. josh

[JohnKSa]

Accuracy is repeatability.

In general, the less stuff you have banging around when you shoot and the tighter it all fits together when it stops banging around, the better accuracy will be.

On the other hand, a heavy gas piston and loosely fitting parts tend to help with reliability.

There's almost always a compromise...

[FS2K]

It is my opinion that the looser tolerances of the AK effects the weapons cycling system & reliablity more than it's ability to shoot accurately.

Now, I'm not saying that you need to build an AK47 yourself in order to understand it's design, but a lot can be learned from knowing exactly how the weapon is put together. Same goes for the AR15. I'm not alone in this either, alot of people who like to tinker with stuff have built AK's and AR's themselves. The AK is more INCONSISTANT than it is INACCURATE. Get a Human sized target. Strap down an AR & AK so neither can move, feed both of them quality ammunition of the SAME CALIBER, have equal barrel lengths and totally take out the human factor from the shooting of either gun, and the AR15 will shoot tighter groups. The AK will still hit the target, just not in the same place all the time.

The AK's design is what restricts it from match type accuracy. It's Barrel is pressed into a trunion, which in turn is riveted onto a sheet metal reciever with 6 Aluminum rivets. The front stock is then wedged under the trunion and clamped to the barrel. Above the barrel is the gas tube that is also connected to the barrel via a pinned on gas block. These outside forces prevent the barrel from moving consistantly when shot, and there is no way to "Free Float" an AK's barrel while sticking to the original design.

I want to make something very clear. The AK47 is NOT an inaccurate rifle. Many people make it out to be by comparing it to other rifles like the AR15. The AK47 is PLENTY accurate for combat situations, and can shoot "Minute of Man" all day long. It was designed to be a Machinegun, not a rifle like the AR15 was and is as accurate as it's design allows it to be.

[oldbillthundercheif]

I saw a super-slow-motion film of an AK firing. It warps and twists and flexes in an amazing variety of directions when it fires. It never comes to rest in exactly the same configuration as it was in for the previous shot. The only moving part of an AR in comparable footage is the bolt. Consistent lockup is a fundamental part of accuracy.

All in all, the AK is a better rifle by far inside of 100yds, though. Weird...

[roscoe]

The sights are the biggest thing, in my opinion. Saigas, however, are pretty accurate. So they can be made to be accurate, it is just that they are often not.

[MTMilitiaman]

It is a number of factors really. On the human side, you have rudimentary sights, often less than satifactory triggers, and more often than not, ammunition that really lacks in quality control and consistancy to most anything a Western designed rifle system is likely to encounter on a regular basis.

The AK was designed to be a cheap, mass produced rifle, and the military philosophy behind it was more concerned with automatic fire and reasonable accuracy out to 300 meters or so than with aimed rifle fire at extended engagement distances. It does this very well. But the design flaws that make it cheap and easy to manufacture in mass quantities have already been pointed out, and these are not condusive to exceptional accuracy. Additionally, the crowns on some rifles are not of the best quality either, and we all know what a bad crown does to accuracy.

The AK will put aimed fire COM out to 200 yards consistantly and out to 300 if you care to practice a little and add a red dot sight. Most stamped receiver rifles will do 5 to 6 MOA at 100 yards with cheap steel-cased ammo, and could probably do 4 MOA or better with higher quality ammunition. $100 worth of upgrades, namely Mojo sights and a decent trigger group, will make it a lot easier to shoot an AK to its potential. Some of the higher grade AKs are rumored to hold 2 MOA. This is exceptional given the rifle's reliability, durability, and the military doctrine that defined it.

[Greg Bell]

I recently placed third in the slowfire accuracy portion of a local NRA service rifle match with my Hungarian AK against about 15 or so competitors with Garands, ARs, etc. I think 85% of the practical accuracy problems with the AK revolve around the sights and ammo. For the match I used factory Winchester ammo, but even it was cheap stuff. My AK is one of the better put together ones, but even it is just cheap stamped metal.

Note: Once the AK gets hot, the accuracy degrades precipitously. That, I believe, is where a lot of the design problems begin to show themselves.

Here is my baby with Aimpoint attached...

[MTMilitiaman]

I agree with your assertions about ammunition and sights, and with your observations of the degredation of accuracy as the rifle heats. Most rifles become less accurate as they get hot, but the AK, I find, can easily double its group size over the course of a magazine or two when put down range in short order.

[Hedley]

My accuracy with the AK falls off after about 10 rounds of slow fire, while most of my rifles can shoot all day with not much noticeable change.

[Buckythebrewer]

The ar15 spider bolt design lends alot to precision shooting as well as the way the barrel is attached to the upper reciever(especially full flouted).there is no bedding to worry about,,the 223 round is also another factor that helps alot..

I have, as well as my friend has, shot at 300 yards well within 12" shot to shot with ease with his 5.45x39 ak74 with open sights shooting wolf ammo in a kneeling position.Not benchrest accuracy but consider all the variables and that rifle is one Hell of a shooter..Again if you get the right shooter with the right weapon you can be very surprised to find the shooter is usually limiting the accuracy potential of the rifle..That being said the ar15 is usually far superior to the ak because of the design mostly and the higher BC ammo that can reach out much better with excellent accuracy(im talking well beyond 300-600yrds and sometimes 1000yrds in 223..

BTW ,My friend(who built his ak74 rifle) was hitting within 4-5ft with his factory open sights @625yrds with me calling the shots with a spotting scope(again,,in the kneeling position left arm supported by his knee)..this was over 10-15 shots!!!That is mighty impressive to me

I think it is more the 7.62x39 round that limits the ak mostly.Because I have never seen an ak47 shoot as good as his smaller cal/longer ak74..

[kozak6]

Also, the Romanian AK's are built by drunks, and reassembled at Century Arms by monkeys. If you built AR-15's like that, they wouldn't be tremendously accurate either.

The higher quality AK's can do all right. VEPR's can shoot 1 MOA, and the Saiga's really aren't that bad either.

[Mk VII]

the AK is very good for its intended purpose - equipping peasant armies unused to technology any more sophisticated than a bicycle, whose notions of weapon maintenance are sketchy. It will keep going when most others fail. The downside of this is less than gilt-edged accuracy; but few users will make use of that anyway.

[Geoff Timm]

The most accurate of the AKs are supposed to be the Finn SAKOs and the Yugoslavians.

The Finns did it by improved quality over the Russian guns, the Yugos improved quality and a much thicker receiver made from thicker steel. The stamping process was slightly slower, but the quality is better.

Geoff
Who notes these are secondary opinions, but from sources over the years like International Defense Review. I miss the old US Army Library system. Sigh. But not the long days and dust.

[FS2K]

Does Finland still have an active military? And if so, are the soldiers still issued AK type weapons?

[bigghoss]

the desinger of the ak(I couldn't spell his name to save my life) said himself that he deliberatly left the tolerances of the ak loose for reliability. not to mention it is built much cheaper thant the ar. the m16/ar was desined with acuracy as well as reliability in mind.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov is currently selling vodka. Someone needs to bring him over and build a US gun company around him. His new reciprocating-barrel / action designs look extremely promising. I bet he would rather be designing guns than hawking booze.

[joshua]

If M Kalishnikov's vodka sells like his firearms around the world I'd like to buy some stocks in that company.

I've read one of the design of the AR contributing to accuracy is the direct gas/key system. No impacting of a piston, the drawback is "it $#!+$ where it eats" so reliability is decreased. I haven't seen much accuracy testing of the HK AR upper design nor a similar version of it by US manufacturers. josh

[Webleymkv]

Probably the most limiting factors in the AK's reliability are the tolerances of the action and the long sroke piston gas system. As you mentioned already, some of your more high end AK's are capable of better accuracy because of tighter tolerances. SVD's and SKS's both have reputations for being more accurate than AK's. SKS's are not built to much tighter tolerances than AK's, but they do use a short stroke gas system as does the SVD (though the SVD is a more finely tuned action than either the AK or SKS).

[Fat White Boy]

Oops! For a minute there I thought you said more accurate! My bad...

[AK103K]

Sights and ammo are probably the biggest issue for AK accuracy, especially at a distance. Heat is also an issue as the groups do tend to open up as the gun gets hot. Not terribly bad, but enough.

If you put a good red dot on the rifle, your groups will shrink. The dot just takes away most of the aiming error and makes shooting easier. The short sight radius and varying post thickness's on different guns can make longer range shooting difficult. Add to that, varying light, bright sun into clouds, etc, and it gets worse. The AR's definitely have better "target shooting" iron sights. For close, quick, shooting, especially on multiple targets, I find the AK's iron sights to be better. Put a dot on either, and the results will be pretty much identical at realistic combat ranges.

Ammo will also make a difference. If you get a good lot, buy a bunch and squirrel it away. For me, Wolf has always been hit or miss. I did recently have a "hit" with a lot of 154 grain Wolf SP's that were pretty impressive. Barnaul SP's have always been the most accurate and consistent for me. The bullets on the Barnauls have a jacketed base, the Wolf, the more common "rolled crimp".

If you want to argue "target" accuracy, the AR will pretty much always win. Combat accuracy at realistic combat ranges, really isnt an issue, both are more than capable. Personally, I'm not really interested in "target accuracy" from either of them. As long as I get good, reasonable combat accuracy out of them, I'm happy. So far, both have kept me happy. I dont normally shoot from a bench, other than to occasionally check a zero if the rifle doesnt have a sling set up that doesnt work well for target type shooting.(like the AK's and HK's) I most always shoot from field positions, most of that being either offhand or drop to sitting. I normally dont use a sling for this type of shooting. My AR and AK groups shooting this way are usually pretty similar. My AR's groups tend to be a little tighter, but not significantly tighter.

These are a couple of targets shot with different AK's. One was a Krebs AK103K with a 14" +/- barrel and a brake with an Aimpoint, and the other, a SAR1 using both iron sights and a red dot. For reference, the width of the head on the targets is about 6".


These were shot with the SAR1 with a red dot. 2 second snap shots from low ready at both 50(R) and 100(L) yards.


These were fired from a cross legged sitting position at 100 yards with the AK103K


AK103K offhand at 100 yards


SAR1 with open sights and Wolf 154 grain SP's at 200 yards

[FirstFreedom]

My understanding is that the biggest factor is that the larger mass/weight of the semi-auto mechanism (piston, rod, bolt, bolt carrier), relative to the lighter weight of the direct impingement components of an AR (no piston or rod) causes more torque/torsion to the entire rifle, during the gas cycling, and this torque affects the barrel as well, even before the bullet leaves the barrel, after the bullet passes the gas port and thus begins the operation of the piston/rod onto the bolt carrier. Because the barrel is torqued, accuracy suffers, and the more weight of these components as the begin to move, the more the barrel torques, and in a AK, they're quite heavy.

Dunno if that's true, but that's what I've heard.

Second biggest factor is just looser tolerances - this allows more reliabler operation when dirty, but there's a tradeoff, and that's accuracy.

But as mentioned, some of these krebs and others can shoot quite well.