|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
August 19, 2012, 07:13 PM | #1 |
Junior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2010
Posts: 3
|
Need S&W 38 Special Information
Hi All,
I just "inherited" an S&W 38 Special from my father-in-law who died in 1990. Mother-in-Law is moving closer to the daughters and the revolver was found stored away in the closet! Here is what I know about it: Smith & Wesson 38 Special – Markings Barrel
Frame
Butt
Cylinder
Has Fray Mershon Inc. “Sure Grip” installed History As noted, father-in-law died in 1990. His father had been a police officer in Oakland, CA and the revolver may have been his service gun, or not! Photos |
August 19, 2012, 07:19 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 8, 2004
Posts: 289
|
Hi, Len. Not a Smith expert, but I'd call it a Model 15.
Chuck |
August 19, 2012, 07:27 PM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
|
It's a S&W "Military & Police". This is the gun that later became the Model 10, so you'll often hear them referred to a "pre-Model 10". I have the same gun in nickel, with the same markings, screw locations, half-moon front sight and patent dates. The serial number on mine is 472XXX, and I think it dates from the late 1920s or early 1930s, so yours is a little bit newer. Looks to be in great shape, and they're fun little shooters. I'd avoid +P ammo in it, at least on a regular basis.
|
August 19, 2012, 09:46 PM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Collectors call your gun a 1905 4th change, which is a type of M&P. Your gun is a pre war version. The M&P was renamed the model 10 in 1957. The gun probably dates to the late 1930s. The grips might actually be from an earlier gun. A gun in your SN range would have most likely had pre war small silver medallion service grips.
A very nice quality made gun regardless of who owned it. The grip adapter was an early attempt to provide a target grip feel to service grips.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
August 19, 2012, 09:49 PM | #5 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Quote:
EDIT - Yes Mr. Obvious aka Mr. Irwin, model 15s also had adjustable sights. I was thinking about all of the non obvious reasons other than the sights
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west Last edited by Winchester_73; August 19, 2012 at 10:25 PM. |
|
August 19, 2012, 09:58 PM | #6 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,390
|
The biggest reason of all why it can't be a model 15?
It doesn't have adjustable rear sights.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 20, 2012, 01:02 AM | #7 |
Junior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2010
Posts: 3
|
Some More Questions
Some questions:
Len |
August 20, 2012, 04:51 AM | #8 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,390
|
Smith & Wesson bluing has always been more black than blue. Just the nature of the process they use.
Do NOT fire +P ammunition in this gun. Absolutely not. It will cause greatly advanced wear.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 20, 2012, 07:12 AM | #9 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,390
|
"Yes Mr. Obvious aka Mr. Irwin, model 15s also had adjustable sights. I was thinking about all of the non obvious reasons other than the sights."
List the obvious first. The arcane will follow.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 20, 2012, 07:35 AM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
|
Quote:
|
|
August 20, 2012, 09:42 AM | #11 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Quote:
Regarding the grips, I already answered you in post 4. IMO the gun should have pre war small silver medallion grips. The type on it were the previous type. It could be correct however. Your type was 20s and 30s and the type I am thinking of was 1930s. Your gun is 1930s vintage. The revolver really and truthfully is not black in hue/shade. It really is blue. Its important to know the difference. Compare it to a NEW S&W, and you see the difference. To my eye, your gun is definitely original finish, and it has a blue sheen to it, depending on how you look at it / lighting, and what you are comparing it to, etc. Historically however, S&Ws blue is darker than say Colt's, but it was never black from the factory in those years. They were still doing the carbona bluing procedure which used cyanide. This was discontinued in the 1970s for safety reasons and since then, the blue has definitely been on the black(er) side. In the old days, they were blue like your gun. Its a matter of perspective and knowing what the modern bluing vs the old bluing looks like. It is IMO a collector's item. Guns today are not made the same way. Its from a bygone era. Also compared to most, your gun is nice AND original. Its also in a handy barrel length. I would certainly buy this one over say a 1970s example so IMO it is something that a collector would rather have IE a collector's item. Its not mint NIB, nor is it rare (actually very common) but still correct and original. Any nice and original pre war S&W 5 screw is a desireable gun. Refinishing is a bad idea for many reasons. The chief reason here is that this gun does not need it, at all. It is really nice as is, and already original. Secondly, a quality refinish will not add value to the gun, and to my eye, who knows these guns, I would know if it was redone and so would many other collectors. Also, the bluing type today is not the same, and so it cannot easily be duplicated. The gun is also not rare or valuable enough to justify a quality restoration. The only times when its ok to refinish are when perhaps you have little invested and the gun is in horrible shape, when the gun was already refinished once, or when its a rare one with condition problems. In the rare gun example, its debateable because many collectors pass over refinished guns because it will always have that stigma. You could of course want your favorite deer rifle to look better, but with these old guns, 98%+ of the time, refinishing is not worth it at all. Quote:
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
||
August 20, 2012, 10:05 AM | #12 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
|
Quote:
I agree on that. The metallurgy on older guns varies considerably, I don't know the date on this 38 Spl, but for a good period after WW1, Smith did not heat treat the cylinders. Even so, if it was heat treated, the metal and the heat treat were appropriate for standard pressure loads. Smith built a heavy duty 38 for hot 38 Special loads. Don't remember, was it the 38/44?, this revolver is not one of those. The +P rounds don't appear until the 70's and not all later model Smiths were made to shoot +p. Don’t shoot +P in these older revolvers.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading. |
|
August 20, 2012, 10:05 AM | #13 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
|
This is the warning directly from S&W:
"“Plus-P” ammunition should not be used in medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the frame. (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is in the open position." With that being said, my M&P has seen a limited amount of +P ammo over the years with no obvious ill effects, but there's really no point in using +P when I'm just punching paper with it, so I stick to fairy light handloads now. |
August 20, 2012, 10:34 AM | #14 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Quote:
Quote:
The S&W warning probably more has to do with making it easy, and taking away possibility. I am not aware of any design change in 1958 other than the fact they were the model 10, that is significant. I could be wrong however. S&W would not most likely given a "safe" SN range for this issue because that raises questions. They can just say "if its not model marked, don't do it" which is simple to understand.
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
||
August 20, 2012, 12:15 PM | #15 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,390
|
"Mike, can you clarify what you mean? IMO it would be safe to do so because of the SN range, but shooting only standard 38s in it would be smarter given its nice original condition. Is your understanding of the heat treating different than mine?"
I'm not talking about the heat treating, although that could be a component of it. I've seen multiple cases where a steady diet of +P with one of these era guns shooting it loose in relatively short order. Primarily the issue will be a dramatic increase in the amount of end shake with cylinder wobble also becoming an increasing issue, but at a much slower rate. Will it happen with the first cylinderful? No, probably not. But, with every cylinderful after that, the effects of the over-pressure ammunition become cumulative. In case you're wondering, yes, I know several people who have shot loose 1920s to 1940s guns using steady diets of +P ammunition.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 20, 2012, 12:23 PM | #16 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,390
|
"IMO the metallurgy on a later 1930s gun would not vary widely"
I'm not 100% sure, but I THINK that Smith & Wesson began using molybdynum (sp?) steel in its revolvers either right before or right after World War II, probably after given the high priority that alloy got for armor plating. That change alone would have done more to increase the cylinder strenght than the heat treating alone.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 20, 2012, 12:25 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 2,863
|
Good info Mike. Thanks. I really like these old M&Ps. I guess any revolver guy has to...
__________________
Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west |
August 20, 2012, 02:00 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2009
Posts: 1,102
|
Steels back when your revolover was made was lesser quality. And alloy, this not as capable of handling increased pressures.
Do as I do with my model 36and shoot only 38 special ammo. ZVP |
August 20, 2012, 05:05 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,526
|
A handsome, well crafted revolver. I wouldn't refinish it. I'd shoot it with standard pressure rounds (which are nothing to sneeze at) and enjoy it.
|
August 20, 2012, 10:15 PM | #20 |
Junior Member
Join Date: December 4, 2010
Posts: 3
|
Wow, So Much Useful Information
Thanks to all for the great feedback.
This will be a range revolver for me. I carry a Springfield XDM 9SC for self-defense, anyway. That and being in the process of retiring and moving to a more restricted spending mode, I expect I will be using the least expensive target ammo for the S&W! I did hear from another person on another forum that they could confirm that a similar S&W .38 Special revolver just 200 S/Ns lower than my S/N was confirmed as having been shipped in June of 1929. My father-in-law did gun smithing as a hobby, focusing mainly on long guns, so it is highly possible that the grips are not original. (There are no penciled in numbers on the back of the grips.) As to the color, it really does look black to me in the sunlight - I took the pictures outdoors using natural light - but then, I can't sing and I can't dance so I will take your collective words for it! Again, thanks for all the useful information. Len |
August 22, 2012, 01:14 PM | #21 |
Junior Member
Join Date: August 22, 2012
Location: Rockland County NY
Posts: 7
|
I bought a S&W Model 10 in January of 84 as a new recruit in the NYPD...I think I was charged $86 for it...maybe. Seeing that grip attachment made we wonder...did S&W ship those with this attachment? I seem to remember using a screwdriver to take this annoyance(for me)off. I wouldn't have bought one. I eventually bought L-frame grips wooden grips for it. But it was awhile ago.
I own some guns, but I don't have the wealth of knowledge that exists here. I do remember the box saying Bangor Puntha or something like that |
August 22, 2012, 01:26 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 3,656
|
its blued. trust us. Bluing can appear black. but true black finishes are polycoat, ceracoat etc. Bluing is well just more pretty... =) use a bright light LED flashlight and the finish can show up slightly purplish or brown.
great gun you have there. I would love to find something like that. Shoot it and enjoy it!
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug |
|
|