READ BEFORE POSTING! World Trade Center Terror Attack?

[Drundel]

I keep thinking Red Dawn and am waiting to hear troop movement from the South Texas border...

[rock_jock]

Wrong, johnak, it is about their religion/philisophy. Plenty of groups have gripes about their claims to ownership/sovereignty, but they don't go around killing on a mass scale like this. China claims Taiwan, but even they don't kill thousands of civilians to take it back. Even the IRA, arguably one of the most ruthless terrorist gropus in modern history did not have the audacity to murder thousands, perhaps tens of thousands in suicide missions. The problem is that their religious beliefs make them think it is not only justified to murder on a mass scale, but to do so will bring them glory forever. This is all these scum need as an excuse. Religious zealotry for a false god is ultimately behind this.

As far as equating the Palestinian issue with California, you have got to be kidding me?!! We didn't steal California, and they didn't lose that land in a war. It was ceded to the US. The Palestinians lost that territory after aggresively ATTACKING Israel and losing. And, if you haven't figured it out by now, the Palestinians goal is not to get some land, it is to DESTROY Israel, and they will continue this garbage until they have met their goal.

[Jody Hudson]

Let's keep Bush flying or at least say he is, and keep all the decoy Air Force Ones up in the air flying all around as per long time criteria. This has been the plan for at least 20 years that I know of.

However, I would think that he is REALLY down in Mount Weather or someplace I've not heard of. Mt. Weather, down 1200 feet or so beneath granite has all the FEMA highest capability comm systems and a very capable staff.

Whatever it is that he is doing is well beyond OUR Quarterbacking abilities and is likely a result of decades or more of planning for just such a thing as we have today -- the first day (most likely) of WW3... Hopefully this is just a relatively smaller event but I hardly think so.

I am reminded of the photos I saw of the incredibly strong steel and concrete structure of the World Trade Center and wonder WHAT it took to take those buildings down to rubble in an hour! Whatever resources came together to bring down both towers is are a substantial power. I refuse to believe that it was the planes that took down the towers no matter what I'm told to believe.

[bastiat]

I agree with keeping bush out of dc for now. One less target for terrorists to aim for. Keep him safe, assess the situation, and go back when prudent.

There's no victory in being like the general on his horse who said "Don't worry, nobody could possibly hit me from this dist...."

[Keith Rogan]

CPR,

I'd risk it because right now we look weak. 10,000 or so Americans are dead and the president is hiding in Nebraska... He should have the courage to go to DC and make a statement of strength. Tuck Cheney and Powell away somewhere safe so you have a chain of command intact and take the risk.

He's acting "Clintonish" right now. I expected more from him.

[Jody Hudson]

Keith,

I strongly differ with your position. There is NO reason to have him in DC or any other place where he can be located. We have the Symbolism of the WTC falling down and the Pentagon being hit and evacuated. Do you think we need the symbolism of our leader being at ground zero in some John Wayne BS defiance.

Luckily wiser heads are ruling this day...

[Sid K]

Blarneystone,

[John/az2]

I was only mildly shocked when I turned on the television this morning at the prompting of posters here.

To me, America has been ripe for such an attack for quite some time. For me, it is a direct result of our lazy, apathetic, self-indulgent, proud, holier than thou, "I've got mine, screw you" attitude.

It remindes me of some other civilizations that have come and gone before we came on the scene.

But, at the same time, this is not the time to "lock and load", "run for the hills", blah, blah, blah... My bills haven't stopped coming. (Damn! ) The damage is not nationwide, the attacks are local to NY and WDC, and the enemy is invisible right now.

Only time will tell if this is going to become an active, pursuable war.

And frankly, I'm quite in awe and admiration at the creativity of the attack.

To imperfectly quote, "Those who would ignore the lessons of history are bound to repeat them."

My heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy. All of them.

[rock_jock]

Might I suggest that those of you who are not experts in structural engineering stop speculating about what it take to topple a skyscraper. It is not too different from a layman telling a surgeon what will and will not work to treat a tumor.

Simply put, you don't know if they suicide planes alone did it or not and thinking you know only makes you look foolish. I hold a Masters degree in Civil Engineering, and I don't know, so what makes you think have superior knowledge? Leave it to the experts.

[Sid K]

Blarneystone, I watched both towers go down. They definately collapsed from top to bottom. Would have been bottom to top if cutter charges were used. The steel framework melts at the fire and everything above falls in the middle. The weight of all this debris collapses successive floors and the increasing volume actually causes a downward rolling explosion. You can see what I mean on the replays.
sid k

[Kernel]

Tuesday September 11th, the significance of this date? Speculation reported on AP (has bin Laden's finger prints all over it):

"...... a U.S. judge had set this Wednesday [9/12/01] as the sentencing date for a bin Laden associate for his role in the 1998 bombing of a U.S. embassy in Tanzania that killed 213 people. The sentencing had been set for the federal courthouse near the World Trade Center. No one from the U.S. attorney's office could be reached Tuesday to comment on whether the sentencing was still on." By Jerry Schwartz, AP National Writer, Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001; 4:17 p.m. EDT

-- Kernel

[Keith Rogan]

Well, FOX news is reporting that Bush has just left Offut AFB and is heading back to DC!
I think this is absolutely the best thing he could do right now and I'm proud of him for doing it! We need to go back to "business as usual" and show these animals that they can't beat us down. What Bush is doing is a magnificient gesture.

[Rich Lucibella]

Bush handled it right.

The second string was secured at the WH Bunkers. It was up to him to move to the nearest different location....SAC has the facilities and communications. His NSC brief is over, the cordon is in place and he's back in the air enroute to DC.

Good moves. How would we have looked if the skies were cleared, the Pres left for DC from FL and got taken out on landing by a simple Stinger?
Rich

(Keith-
We posted simultaneously. Obviously, we're in agreement.)

[maxinquaye]

Taken to Email as it should have been the first time...

[dischord]

September 11

Perhaps it is the Bin-Laden sentencing thing tomorrow, but consider that this is the one year anniversary of last year's World Economic Summit in Australia, which the anti-WTO folks protested.

Here's a link to a leftist-green group that seems to place some significance on the date.
http://www.greenleft.org.au/globalac...reetrade.shtml

No, I have not idea about these people and I'm making no accusations ... just making sure we look at all the possibilities.

After all, detroying the World Trade Center makes a lot of sense from an anti-capitalist perspective.

[Thumper]

Well, John/AZ...you've outdone yourself this time. I doubt if Bin Laden himself could have put it better. We're "ripe," huh? Maybe you should clarify yourself. You sound quite pleased.

[Rich Lucibella]

Max-
Reread the TFL Policies....we're all hot right now. In retrospect, what will separate the Men from the Boys at TFL is our ability to find Common Ground; not reasons to lash out. Check your email.

John-
I'm appealing to you, should you respond. Take the High Road.
Rich

[Ed Brunner]

As far as what GWB is doing.... he is presently at Offitt AFB in Omaha NE and for those who do not realize, that is the headquarters of the Strategic Air Command. I would expect that some sort of retalitory plans are being discussed.

[Jody Hudson]

Your point about expertise is well taken Rock_Jock, BUT, regardless of how many degrees I have or don't have, I AM able to observe and to extrapolate my experiences without needing to ONLY follow the advice of the experts. I prefer to see what I see, NOT what others tell me to see.

Admitedly, as much as 40,000 gallons of fuel makes a very large molotov but also, even in a tower fire inferno like these I am unable to see how a fuel fire can take down that much steel and concrete so effectively TWICE.

The floors that I saw where about 2 1/2 feet thick cabled, pre-stressed concrete with riveted and welded steel beams the size of a car body.

I could more easily understand bomb like fuel vapor explosions and gallons of fuel flowing down the building in various ways resulting in bomb like series of explosions in floor after floor as the fuel and fire flowed down the building's innards.

Rock_Jock what sort of engineering are you involved in?

[Coinneach]

Maxinquaye, check yourself. At no time did John state his admiration for the bastards who committed the crime. If he had, I'd be on the road to Arizona right now for a face-to-face.

Folks, our emotions are at their most volatile ever. EVER. Don't let those emotions and undirected rage lead to attacks on your allies.

As I noted above, now more than ever we need to be unified and strong. Petty squabbles are absolutely the last thing we need.

Keep your heads clear and remember: your fellows here are not the enemy.

[Keith Rogan]

Rich,

Yeah, I forgive the initial delay in his return but it's fairly secure now and he needs to go back to the oval office and go to work. Clearly, me and Dubbya (and you) agree on this A delay of a day or two would have looked very bad and hurt his and our prestige.

Now it's time to start launching those cruise missiles and give the networks some new smoking rubble to film.... well, as soon as we have a clear target anyway.

[Coinneach]

Keith, the prez' physical presence at the White House is irrelevant and potentially dangerous. He simply doesn't need to be there in person, considering our comms capabilities. Keeping him on the move keeps the enemy guessing.

[Larry Ashcraft]

Radio program this morning was giving some facts on the WTC... It was finished in 1970 and was engineered to withstand a hit from a 707 (the biggest jet at that time I think they said).

Anybody know how much heavier a 767 is or how much more fuel a 767 holds?

[Mover]

Has anyone heard any more details of the hijacked, crash in Pennsylvania? This seems to be the only one in which we could possibly identify the remains of any passangers. This might be the key to finding out who is responsible. Funny,I have'nt seen any vidio and only a little coverage of this one!

[Jody Hudson]

fuel and weight of 767 is:
Maximum Fuel Capacity 23,980 U.S. gal (90,770 l)
Maximum Takeoff Weight 450,000 lb (204,120 kg)

Boeing 707 15,000 gallons
weight 160,000 lb