Advantage of the 40S&W over 9mm? - Page 3

Para Bellum · December 20, 2005, 06:05 AM

we only used one bullet type in .45 and .40 to get a real comparison to the same bullet type in 9x19mm. And, since the EMB is not availiable in .40 and .45 we thought and still thinkt that the EFMJ is the best defense round for .40 and .45.

The .40 wasn't bad in our tests. But the 9x19mm showed more penetration and more damage to the targets (see "shockwave data" in the wetpacks for example). Expansion is not that much interesting if it doesn't result in damage.

But, I am sure, .40 and .45 fans will read our tests in their own way and that's good. If we were all happy with one caliber and bullet, no progress would ever be made.

But: If you were to pick between Glock 19 and Glock 23 take my advice that the Glock 23 (.40) only has disadvantages over the 9x19mm Glock 19 (IMHO).

chaim · December 20, 2005, 05:27 PM

In the best premium loadings for each caliber there isn't much difference in effectiveness between the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. The biggest advantages of .40S&W and .45ACP over 9mm come in when you go to the next level down. There is a world of difference between the good 9mm rounds and the less effective defensive ammo, and the FMJ is not a good stopper. In .40S&W and .45ACP there isn't that great a difference between the better loadings and the lower quality defensive ammo (.45ACP is even OK in FMJ).

So, the biggest advantage of .40S&W over .45ACP is if you don't want to put a lot of thought into your ammo choices. Even more so, the .40S&W has the advantage if you are simply going to buy whatever your local stores happen to have on sale.

That said, I used to almost dislike .40S&W (maybe not "almost"). I didn't see the point. Since 9mm in the best loadings is just as capable, and if you want more margin for error there is the .45ACP I didn't see the need.

Now, .40S&W is one of my favorite self-defense chamberings. You don't have to be as careful in ammo selection. Even if you are careful in ammo selection, things don't always go as planned- if the HP doesn't open (which can happen occasionally in even the best ammo) you will have a bigger hole. It can be chambered in smaller guns than .45ACP, and in a short barreled gun (3.5" and shorter) it may be more effective than .45ACP (except in the lighter weight bullets, .45ACP moves too slow for a HP to reliably open in a short barrel and may even have penetration issues due to low velocities- .40S&W in all loads should work in a short barrel). The recoil, which admittedly is much higher than 9mm and most people find less pleasant (though lighter) than .45ACP, is not bad at all. It is a good choice between 9mm and .45ACP.

Of course, that isn't to say it is head and shoulders over 9mm. I am a big fan of 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. They all have advantages over the others which make them good choices. I only answered the way I did since you specifically asked for the advantages of .40S&W over 9mm. If you asked the opposite I would have said things like: less expensive practice ammo is available in 9mm, 9mm is every bit as capable as .40S&W in the right ammo choices, 9mm recoils less for faster follow up shots, etc.

shield20 · December 21, 2005, 10:31 AM

In NY, where we are still "capacity limited", taking the 40SW over a 9 is a no-brainer in a normal CCW piece. Even in a duty gun though, I would take/have taken the .40 - I like that bigger hole over the loss of a couple rounds.
Maybe I am just a hold-over from when the 9mm was a real disappointment and there was so much constant scrambling to find a round that worked consistently (115 vs 147 vs +p vs +p+ vs ??) The .40 was a great alternative when there were big doubts in the 9, and I will still take that advantage of bigger caliber /bigger expansion.

cje1980 · December 21, 2005, 02:43 PM

I don't understand all of this talk about premium loads between the 9mm, .40, and .45ACP. Maybe penetration wise but the 9mm is never going to expand as much as .40S&W and .45ACP in premium loadings. In general the 9mm expands to .60-.65, the .40 to .65-.70, and the .45 to .70-.75, I don't see how their isn't much difference between them. The .45ACP is always going to start out at .10 larger in diameter and it usually expands to .10 larger in diameter than the 9mm. The same applies to the .40S&W it starts out with a bigger diameter and finishes with a bigger diameter. I would say that a premium 9mm JHP might perform almost as well as a non-premium old school .45ACP JHP but I don't think any one in a sane mind-set is going to say that a premium 9mm JHP is going to perform identically to a premium .45ACP JHP. It simply isn't true. I don't know of any 9mm JHPs that can penetrate 14" and still expand to over .70 consistently.

7.62 · December 21, 2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

you are going to have one go tits up every now and then.

Ok, I am a country-taliking hick, but that one even made me laugh!!!!!

chaim · December 21, 2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

I don't understand all of this talk about premium loads between the 9mm, .40, and .45ACP. Maybe penetration wise but the 9mm is never going to expand as much as .40S&W and .45ACP in premium loadings. In general the 9mm expands to .60-.65, the .40 to .65-.70, and the .45 to .70-.75, I don't see how their isn't much difference between them. The .45ACP is always going to start out at .10 larger in diameter and it usually expands to .10 larger in diameter than the 9mm.

And if the only thing to a round's effectiveness was diameter what you are implying would be right, my statement would be ridiculous. If diameter was all that matters the long obsolete .44 Bull Dog, .44S&W American, and .41LC would all be superior rounds to the .357mag by far. As it is, they aren't even up to non-+P .38spl in most cases.

When you look at most measures of a round's effectiveness, outside of only diameter, they do look about the same in effectiveness. Raw energy numbers are very close in top loadings. The controversial "one shot stop" numbers are similar. And when evaluating real world shootings they come out similar, when top loads in each caliber are evaluated.

If you don't trust 9mm, by all means, don't carry it. There is nothing wrong with .45ACP and .40S&W. They do have some advantages (mainly that you don't have to be as careful about ammo selection, and when you get a round that doesn't expand you have a bigger hole), but don't try to mislead others that there is some night and day difference between these three calibers.

147 Grain · December 21, 2005, 08:24 PM

Bullet construction and weight (i.e. choice of ammo) are more important than caliber! Either the 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP will be fine for self defense - given the right bullet.

Choose the weapon that fits you best and as far as caliber is concerned, they generally perform the same as far as wound ballistics are kept by PD's and emergency room doctors.

If you shoot a lot of ammo at the range or are small in stature, the 9mm has an advantage. Otherwise, it's a toss-up, as far as self defense is concerned.

Often, it's best for a beginner to startout and become proficient with a 9mm and only move up after a lot of range time. Many 40 caliber owners have intermediate handgun skills (but not all). Only recommend the 45 ACP for shooters who've master basic handgun skills and range proficiency.

147-gr. bullets in 9mm, 180-gr. in 40 S&W. and 230-gr. in 45 ACP are more apt to outperform lighter bullets in their respective calibers. Suggest you consider Ranger T's, Golden Saber's, or Gold Dot's for choice of self defense ammo.

Wildcard · December 21, 2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

I think the police migration to .40S&W is not so much due to the superiority of the caliber over 9x19, but rather a combination of Fed Envy (if the Feds have it, it must be cutting edge) and a handy excuse/justification for a handgun upgrade.

Best answer I have heard on this endless debate.

WESHOOT2 · December 24, 2005, 07:24 AM

I prefer and recommend 230g only in 45 ACP, yet I consider (non-LE) 135g JHP's in the 40 S&W and 115g JHP's in the 9x19, when launched correctly, to be the best, most proper bullet choices in those chamberings.

History.......and the US Border Patrol's great success with the 155g R-P........and the ISP........and Texas and their 357SIG-launced 9mm bullet......and stuff.

alston73 · December 24, 2005, 10:43 PM

Don't use homemade bullets and there won't be kBs.

I'll take a 9mm, .40 SW, .45 ACP, .357 mag, .357 sig, or .38 Special and feel just fine in my house if somebody was bothering me. I am not a LEO so whichever one of these I had would probably be fine if I squeezed off about three. I like my wife having 17 rounds in case she misses.

Garand Guy · December 24, 2005, 11:00 PM

Ever heard of the "slow-heavy bullet theory"? Granted, there isn't much about the 40 that's too slow. Get a loading manual and compare the heavy bullets for each caliber (147 gr 9mm vs. 180-200 gr 40cal).

WESHOOT2 · December 26, 2005, 08:26 AM

KBs can happen with premium LE-issued ammo.
Glocks are not the only gun that KB.
Handloads are not always present at KB incidents.

Confirming one's choice in 'caliber' is the point of these extended posts, yet the odds of any of us needing (again?) whatever choice we've made is about the same as lottery odds, ay?

December 20, 2005, 06:05 AM	#51
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	tests we only used one bullet type in .45 and .40 to get a real comparison to the same bullet type in 9x19mm. And, since the EMB is not availiable in .40 and .45 we thought and still thinkt that the EFMJ is the best defense round for .40 and .45. The .40 wasn't bad in our tests. But the 9x19mm showed more penetration and more damage to the targets (see "shockwave data" in the wetpacks for example). Expansion is not that much interesting if it doesn't result in damage. But, I am sure, .40 and .45 fans will read our tests in their own way and that's good. If we were all happy with one caliber and bullet, no progress would ever be made. But: If you were to pick between Glock 19 and Glock 23 take my advice that the Glock 23 (.40) only has disadvantages over the 9x19mm Glock 19 (IMHO). __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

December 21, 2005, 10:31 AM	#53
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	In NY, where we are still "capacity limited", taking the 40SW over a 9 is a no-brainer in a normal CCW piece. Even in a duty gun though, I would take/have taken the .40 - I like that bigger hole over the loss of a couple rounds. Maybe I am just a hold-over from when the 9mm was a real disappointment and there was so much constant scrambling to find a round that worked consistently (115 vs 147 vs +p vs +p+ vs ??) The .40 was a great alternative when there were big doubts in the 9, and I will still take that advantage of bigger caliber /bigger expansion. Last edited by shield20; December 21, 2005 at 04:37 PM.

December 21, 2005, 08:24 PM	#57
147 Grain Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2005 Posts: 281	Bullet construction and weight (i.e. choice of ammo) are more important than caliber! Either the 9mm, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP will be fine for self defense - given the right bullet. Choose the weapon that fits you best and as far as caliber is concerned, they generally perform the same as far as wound ballistics are kept by PD's and emergency room doctors. If you shoot a lot of ammo at the range or are small in stature, the 9mm has an advantage. Otherwise, it's a toss-up, as far as self defense is concerned. Often, it's best for a beginner to startout and become proficient with a 9mm and only move up after a lot of range time. Many 40 caliber owners have intermediate handgun skills (but not all). Only recommend the 45 ACP for shooters who've master basic handgun skills and range proficiency. 147-gr. bullets in 9mm, 180-gr. in 40 S&W. and 230-gr. in 45 ACP are more apt to outperform lighter bullets in their respective calibers. Suggest you consider Ranger T's, Golden Saber's, or Gold Dot's for choice of self defense ammo. __________________ Aim for the Thoracic Triangle Area between the armpits & throat.

December 24, 2005, 07:24 AM	#59
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	oddity I prefer and recommend 230g only in 45 ACP, yet I consider (non-LE) 135g JHP's in the 40 S&W and 115g JHP's in the 9x19, when launched correctly, to be the best, most proper bullet choices in those chamberings. History.......and the US Border Patrol's great success with the 155g R-P........and the ISP........and Texas and their 357SIG-launced 9mm bullet......and stuff. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

December 24, 2005, 10:43 PM	#60
alston73 Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 144	Don't use homemade bullets and there won't be kBs. I'll take a 9mm, .40 SW, .45 ACP, .357 mag, .357 sig, or .38 Special and feel just fine in my house if somebody was bothering me. I am not a LEO so whichever one of these I had would probably be fine if I squeezed off about three. I like my wife having 17 rounds in case she misses. __________________ NRA Member Glock 17, Sig P239 .40

December 20, 2005, 05:27 PM	#52
chaim Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 2,095	In the best premium loadings for each caliber there isn't much difference in effectiveness between the 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. The biggest advantages of .40S&W and .45ACP over 9mm come in when you go to the next level down. There is a world of difference between the good 9mm rounds and the less effective defensive ammo, and the FMJ is not a good stopper. In .40S&W and .45ACP there isn't that great a difference between the better loadings and the lower quality defensive ammo (.45ACP is even OK in FMJ). So, the biggest advantage of .40S&W over .45ACP is if you don't want to put a lot of thought into your ammo choices. Even more so, the .40S&W has the advantage if you are simply going to buy whatever your local stores happen to have on sale. That said, I used to almost dislike .40S&W (maybe not "almost"). I didn't see the point. Since 9mm in the best loadings is just as capable, and if you want more margin for error there is the .45ACP I didn't see the need. Now, .40S&W is one of my favorite self-defense chamberings. You don't have to be as careful in ammo selection. Even if you are careful in ammo selection, things don't always go as planned- if the HP doesn't open (which can happen occasionally in even the best ammo) you will have a bigger hole. It can be chambered in smaller guns than .45ACP, and in a short barreled gun (3.5" and shorter) it may be more effective than .45ACP (except in the lighter weight bullets, .45ACP moves too slow for a HP to reliably open in a short barrel and may even have penetration issues due to low velocities- .40S&W in all loads should work in a short barrel). The recoil, which admittedly is much higher than 9mm and most people find less pleasant (though lighter) than .45ACP, is not bad at all. It is a good choice between 9mm and .45ACP. Of course, that isn't to say it is head and shoulders over 9mm. I am a big fan of 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP. They all have advantages over the others which make them good choices. I only answered the way I did since you specifically asked for the advantages of .40S&W over 9mm. If you asked the opposite I would have said things like: less expensive practice ammo is available in 9mm, 9mm is every bit as capable as .40S&W in the right ammo choices, 9mm recoils less for faster follow up shots, etc.

December 21, 2005, 02:43 PM	#54
cje1980 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,412	I don't understand all of this talk about premium loads between the 9mm, .40, and .45ACP. Maybe penetration wise but the 9mm is never going to expand as much as .40S&W and .45ACP in premium loadings. In general the 9mm expands to .60-.65, the .40 to .65-.70, and the .45 to .70-.75, I don't see how their isn't much difference between them. The .45ACP is always going to start out at .10 larger in diameter and it usually expands to .10 larger in diameter than the 9mm. The same applies to the .40S&W it starts out with a bigger diameter and finishes with a bigger diameter. I would say that a premium 9mm JHP might perform almost as well as a non-premium old school .45ACP JHP but I don't think any one in a sane mind-set is going to say that a premium 9mm JHP is going to perform identically to a premium .45ACP JHP. It simply isn't true. I don't know of any 9mm JHPs that can penetrate 14" and still expand to over .70 consistently.

December 26, 2005, 08:26 AM	#62
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	more than aware KBs can happen with premium LE-issued ammo. Glocks are not the only gun that KB. Handloads are not always present at KB incidents. Confirming one's choice in 'caliber' is the point of these extended posts, yet the odds of any of us needing (again?) whatever choice we've made is about the same as lottery odds, ay? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"