Why is God so feared by liberals?

[Judge Blackhawk]

I have been reading a lot hear lately about the ACLU and other liberal high and mighty thinkers in this great country and I am most perplexed.

The liberals want to have freedom of speech be paramont. But the freedom to own the means to protect ones self is not even considered a basic right.


Why do liberals fear God? Is it because God gives us hope, hope that is above and beyond that which liberals offer.

Is it that liberals want to be the center of the little peoples attention. That liberals want to be the givers of food, clothing, and shelter.

Is it that liberals want to be thought of as providing comfort to those in time of need? Warmth to the cold at heart.

Is it that liberals want to be thought of as the salvation for the common man. The protector of the innocent?

Are the liberals afraid of God for the same reasons, they fear the little people owning guns? Is it that God allows people the hope to face the future and that GUNS allow us a means with which to get to the future safely.

Could it be that Guns and God, go hand in hand. Could it be the old saying that God helps those who help themselves. Surely this could be a great answer to the question of why liberals fear them both so greatly.

With God there is hope, with Guns there is security, with both there is PEACE. Hmmmm, sounds like a corelation to me.

I believe my friends, that Liberals want to be thought of themselves as Gods and as saviors. For in their own liberal minds, they believe that they are the true leaders and that no one, should be able to question them or challenge, especially God the Almighty. How dear He attempt to provide what only true liberals are capable of providing to the huddled masses.....

God help us all. And may God forgive us for turning our minds and hearts against Him. May He forgive us, one and all, and take us back into His favor and grant us His peace and love and guideance once again.

May the peace and grace of our Lord be with you all.

Judge Blackhawk

[This message has been edited by Judge Blackhawk (edited May 24, 2000).]

[John Marshall]

Judge:

I think your analysis is essentially correct. I would make one further observation. I believe that there are a large number of liberals/socialists that have a deep-seated and un-utterable fear that those of us who believe are RIGHT. That thought fills them with such a sense of dread that their only reponse is to become more hostile.

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If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.

[Art Eatman]

Do not religious people tend to believe in personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions? Do they not tend to have fairly strict codes of right vs. wrong? Do they not, generally, tend to be rationally judgemental about the behavior of others?

Is it not true that this sort of ethos is anathema to most Liberals and Statists?

Regards, Art

[Phil]

I was going to reply to with soemething terribly witty like "They can't control Him".

Then I read Art's post and thought of some religous fanatics I've known. They were just as dangerous as any fanatic. This of course led to the stunning realization that not all, or probably even most, liberals fear God. You just read about the fanatics like the ACLU, and Rosie, etc. Same way you never hardly read about guns being used to save a life. We need to be careful with sweeping generalizations, lest we become like "them".

Y'all have a good Memorial Day. May we never forget.

[tackdriver]

Crap, I forgot to renew my church membership when I bought my last gun! If I had only known! I wonder if they can make this easier... like registering to vote when you get a driver's license.
Do God and Guns go hand-in-hand? Sure, look at the middle-east or your latest abortion clinic gunman.
Sorry if I bury myself like I did on the legal and political forum, but I think I'm the only athiest here, so...
My intelligence is insulted when I'm supposed to buy into meaningless falacies like, "athiest=liberal," God is on our side nonsense or denying the fact that God says not to kill.
What does the third commandment teach you? Don't take His name in vain. In other words, don't use God to justify your personal cause against others without his express spoken permission. Whoops!
And so much for getting to the future safely. There's that pesky 6th commandment. It's KILL not MURDER IMHO--debate me if you can read hebrew, otherwise don't bother.
I guess, by Blackhawk's definition, Jesus was a liberal. He even had long hair and a beard! Not to mention that whole riding on a donkey thing... I always knew he was a democrat!
Again, I apologize for getting so incensed over this, but I don't object to reasonable, intelligent, logical statements, even if I disagree with them.
You can call me heathen athiest scum, but don't you dare call me a liberal!

[This message has been edited by tackdriver (edited May 25, 2000).]

[G50AE]

Actually it is not god that the liberals fear. The liberals would like everyone in the US to adopt the Kristian religion. It has everything they need;

-It tells people that personal responsability is not important, because since god is all powerful, everything is his will.

-It states that you can be forgive for the most evil of act. Let's release them early from jail, god forgives them. Look at the Carla Faye Tucker case. The Kristians wanted a murderer to be set free. This was a woman who could have just as easily brutally killed YOUR son or daughter.

-It calls upon its members to do undeniable acts of barbarism. John Salvi for one, he killed a doctor in the name of god. Gee that's just what a civilized society needs.

[John/az2]

This is pathetic.

Let's transpose the argument:

Only bad people own guns.

Guns teach people irresponsibility.

All bad things are enacted in the name of Guns.

The gun is allpowerful so no one should have one.

Gun ownership calls upon its members to do undeniable acts of barbarism. The Columbine killers used guns. Gee that's just what a civilized society needs.

Tackdriver,

Judge B, said that liberals (in general) fear God. If this is true, how could you possibly fear what you don't believe? Therefore, you're not a liberal, are you?



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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited May 25, 2000).]

[Jedi Oomodo]

G50AE,

>Cristianity is all about personal responsibility. There is right and wrong, and if you do wrong, it is your fault. God gave us free will- while He is ultimately in control, we can make choices, which aren't always in accordance with His will. You can't go rape your sister, rob a liquour store, and shoot the clerk, then say "It wasn't my fault, it was God's will 'cause He let it happen!" It don't work like dat.

>Yes, God will forgive anyone for the most heinous acts, but only if they willingly accept it. God's forgiveness is not unconditional. Think about it: if you wrong someone and they are willing to forgive you, but you don't want to be forgiven, are you? As far as letting murderers go, as a Christian I would be against letting murderers out of jail "because God forgives them". First off, as I already said, God's forgiveness is not unconditional, and second, how do we know? I believe that we as a society cannot forgive murderers their crimes: it's not our place to.

>Just because someone does something "in God's name" does not mean that He approves. If a whacko went postal then said "I did it for G50AE!!!!", did you have anything to do with it? Did YOU sanction it? Of course not. Then don't attribute to God's will the actions of men, who are quite often incorrect in their motives.

It seems to me by your comments that you have only a passing (and fundamentally flawed) familiarity with Christianity. Before you impugn us, you would do well to gather a few more facts about us.

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Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America
-Creed, "In America"

The warrior kings lived by the sword/From hill to loch and dark fjord/Battling 'til his life he shed/leaving the throne/To the sons of Somerled...
Steve McDonald, "Sons of Somerled"

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited May 25, 2000).]

[G50AE]

I grew up as a Kristian, now I am saved.

[Jedi Oomodo]

Then I would say that the "Kristianity" you were raised with has only a passing (and fundamentally flawed) resemblance to true Christianity. Were you perchance a Katholik?

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Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America
-Creed, "In America"

The warrior kings lived by the sword/From hill to loch and dark fjord/Battling 'til his life he shed/leaving the throne/To the sons of Somerled...
Steve McDonald, "Sons of Somerled"

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Jedi Oomodo (edited May 25, 2000).]

[scud]

I don't think it is God per say that liberals are afraid of but rather morality. The common precepts of Christianity teach moral absolutes & responsability, the very bane of the liberal existance.

They enjoy lies and evil, morality to them is as light to a vampire. The world they have manufactured in their minds is only solid when there is no resistance. Then there is the point that they cannot afford to be responsable for their actions, morality or God require that. They know they are evil, the dream/lie allows them to discount the nature of their actions. In effect when you argue with them over a moral issue you are threatening their entire way of life.

My 2 cents (I have a HARD time dealing with true liberals )



[This message has been edited by scud (edited May 25, 2000).]

[DorGunR]

The Three Little Birds . . .

There once was a man named George Thomas, a pastor in a small New England
town. One Easter Sunday morning he came to the Church carrying a rusty,
bent, old bird cage, and set it by the pulpit. Several eyebrows were raised
and, as if in response, Pastor Thomas began to speak.

"I was walking through town yesterday when I saw a young boy coming toward
me swinging this bird cage. On the bottom of the cage were three little wild birds,
shivering with cold and fright. I stopped the lad and asked,

"What you got there son?"

"Just some old birds," came the reply.

"What are you gonna do with them?" I asked.

"Take 'em home and have fun with 'em," he answered. I'm gonna tease 'em and
pull out their feathers to make 'em fight. I'm gonna have a real good time."

"But you'll get tired of those birds sooner or later. What will you do then?"

"Oh, I got some cats," said the little boy. "They like birds. I'll take 'em to them."

The pastor was silent for a moment. "How much do you want for those birds,
son?"

"Huh??!!! Why, you don't want them birds, mister. They're just plain old
field birds. They don't sing - they ain't even pretty!"

"How much?" the pastor asked again.

The boy sized up the pastor as if he were crazy and said, "$10?"

The pastor reached in his pocket and took out a ten dollar bill. He placed
it in the boy's hand. In a flash, the boy was gone. The pastor picked up
the cage and gently carried it to the end of the alley where there was a
tree and a grassy spot. Setting the cage down, he opened the door, and
by softly tapping the bars persuaded the birds out, setting them free.
Well, that explained the empty bird cage on the pulpit, and then the pastor
began to tell this story:

One day Satan and Jesus were having a conversation. Satan had just come
from the Garden of Eden, and he was gloating and boasting.

"Yes, sir, I just caught the world full of people down there. Set me a
trap, used bait I knew they couldn't resist. Got 'em all!"

"What are you going to do with them?" Jesus asked.

Satan replied, "Oh, I'm gonna have fun! I'm gonna teach them how to marry
and divorce each other, how to hate and abuse each other, how to drink and
smoke and curse. I'm gonna teach them how to invent guns and bombs and
kill each other. I'm really gonna have fun!"

"And what will you do when you get done with them?" Jesus asked.

"Oh, I'll kill 'em," Satan glared proudly.

"How much do you want for them?" Jesus asked.

"Oh, you don't want those people. They ain't no good. Why, You'll take
them and they'll just hate you. They'll spit on you, curse you and kill
you!! You don't want those people!!"

"How much?" He asked again.

Satan looked at Jesus and sneered, "All your tears, and all your blood."

Jesus said, "DONE!" Then He paid the price.

The pastor picked up the cage; he opened the door and he walked from the
pulpit.

Notes:
Isn't it funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why
the world's going to hell.

Isn't it funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what
the Bible says.

Isn't it funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have
to believe, think, say, or do anything the Bible says.

Or is it scary?

Isn't it funny how someone can say "I believe in God" but still follow
Satan (who, by the way, also "believes" in God).

Isn't it funny how you can send a thousand jokes through e-mail and they
spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the
Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Isn't it funny how the lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene pass freely through
cyberspace, but the public discussion of Jesus is suppressed in the school
and workplace.

FUNNY, ISN'T'T IT?

Isn't it funny how someone can be so fired up for Christ on Sunday, but be
an invisible Christian the rest of the week.

Are you laughing?

Isn't it funny how when you go to forward this message, you will not send
it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe,
or what they will think of you for sending it to them.

Isn't it funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of
me than what God thinks of me.

[David Scott]

Tackdriver is not the only atheist here.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I do not fear gods (I don't believe in them). I just fear what people will do in their name. Believe what you want, doesn't matter to me. Just don't try to enforce your beliefs on others.

What I greatly fear, and what is being pushed in America, is the union of religion and government. EVERY government in history with an official state religion has been a source of oppression and persecution. Those who want to write their faith's principles into law may think they are doing it for the greater good, but the result is eventually awful -- suppression of free speech, discrimination, denial of an equal voice in public affairs, and sometimes actual physical abuse.

I get enraged when I hear people putting media spin on events like Columbine and claiming that if we'd just put prayer back in schools, this stuff wouldn't happen. That's not only indefensible, it's an insult to the memory of those victims and a complete avoidance of the real problems.

It does no good to build religion into government, because you can't make people believe by force of law or force of arms. Even if they comply in their surface behavior, they're still bitter and resentful underneath. Oliver Cromwell tried it with the people of Ireland, and they're still blowing up each other's school buses.

[Spectre]

What constitutes a liberal? I think, by many of the definitions I heard growing up, I qualify.

I fear no deity.

What I do fear is those who would exert control on my life, whatever their claimed creed. I will stand with like-minded individuals of every stripe to repell such tyrants. Do not be one of them.

Do not tell me how to dress.
Do not tell me how to allocate my funds.
Do not tell me what to listen to, as long as I keep it to myself.
Do not tell me what social habits to follow, so long as I deal only with consenting adults and exert no deliberate harm on anyone.

And I freely extend the same right, to breath the air unmolested and live freely... just don't smack your kids around in front of me.

[Donny]

Judge,
Consider the relationship between a man, or Master and his Dog.

The Master provides a shelter, food, basic needs of life.
In exchange, the Dog will give undying devotion to the Master. The Dog will willing provide such things as companionship, protection by alerting to things that go "give me your money" in the night.
Some Dogs will even help you secure food, such as game.

Many times, a Master will grow tired of this relationship, and dispose of the Dog. Simply because (s)he cannot provide for the needs of the Dog any longer. Some times, the Dog is given away, like a piece of property. Sometimes, even sold, like a slave.

We are becoming the Dog in this relationship.

We're defined in the Constitution as the Master's of the agreement between the "people" and the "government"(Dogs).
That requires, NO, IT DEMANDS!! that, as the Masters, we be aware at all times of the actions of the Dogs. Indeed we must be wary of the actions of the Dogs as well.

What's been occuring is that far too many people have decided they are either too busy, too unimportant, or just don't give a damn, to challenge the Dogs anymore.


Why do Liberals fear God, or the masses who believe and gather, and therefore have strength in numbers. Why do they fear the armed populace? Why do they seem to be testing the waters continously lately?

An armed and agitated populace has always been a very dangerous thing to a group who have been asserting themselves trying to steal everything the populace has worked for. Or at least the populace that bothers to work, and to defend their rewards of hard labor.

See, even if we 80 million(??) armed citizens greatly outnumber the existing military, police, etc. We have our Civil Laws to restrain us when we choose to live by those laws.
When such time comes that the armed segment of society decides, or realizes, that it can no longer be a Free people under the Laws set forth, you'll have an insurrection, or revolution, if you will.

This is what the LIberals fear the most. Because they know that we would have little to lose, and everything to gain by such an action.
They on the otherhand have everyting to lose, and little to gain by that same action.
They also realize that they would be the first to the Gallows, or The Firing Line. These truths have haunted every tyrant through our history.

Further, the teachings of Christ, or God, show that a people must stand up for themselves, that Justice be swift, and be tempered with Wisdom. That tyrants have no place on this Earth.

Best Regards,
Don

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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms;
History shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler

[Gorthaur]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I greatly fear, and what is being pushed in America, is the union of religion and government.[/quote]Amen. Er, right on.

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Support the US Olympic Shooting Team!
Protect your Right to Keep and Bear Arms!

[CMOS]

I think maybe alot of you are on the wrong track here. I don't think liberals fear god at all. I don't think it has anything to do with god.

Here's my take.

The apparent attack on religion and god is simply a methodology for them to accomplish their own goals - power and influence.

The liberal mentality is very different indeed. It comes from deep within, as does our beliefs, whether that be religion or guns, etc.. They have the belief that they can and will "help us" whether we want it or not.

It's that simple.

I've asked a few liberal folks "why do you always butt in to others business when it has nothing to do with you at all?"

The answer: "Because it will be better this way!"

And you can essentially repeat those last 2 paragraphs until one of us drops dead from old age.

It's just a method for them.

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now joing the GOA!

[TBeck]

It might help if we choose our terms a little more carefully. A liberal is anyone who advocates a change in the staus quo. A conservative is anyone who doesn't. Sometimes change is necessary and moral, sometimes it is detrimental. The Republican party platform in 1864 was extremely liberal, it was abolitionist. The Democrat platform was extremely conservative, it was pro-slavery. It all depends on your perspective.

The term I like to use for the current power-hungry crowd seeking to deny me my God-given rights is STATIST. I borrowed it from John Ross. A statist is anyone who believes the rights of the state supercede the rights of the individual. A statist can be conservative or liberal, fascist or communist.

Yes, Jesus was a liberal. Just ask the pharisees who put him to death. But even within the early church there were conservatives and liberals. Peter was a conservative who felt that Christ's message should be reserved for Jews. Paul was a liberal who felt that everybody should be offered the Word. There are just as many sorts of Christians as there are people. They will not be judged collectively, they will be judged individually. If God extends the privilege of individual judgement to us we should do the same for those around us.

Judgement is necessary. Judgement is a conclusion based upon some form of discrimination. A Christian is presented with a set of non-negotiable rules for daily life. These rules are very simple. How we choose to live by them or interpret them is up to each of us. Free will. Something the statist will deny you. We are not perfect nor are we expected to be. But we are expected to TRY. God doesn't want robots. The statist does. The statist fears God because to follow God is to deny the supremacy of the state. To follow God is to take responsibility for yourself and your actions. If you have the responsibility for yourself you have control. The statist doesn't want you to have control. You are not fit. To the statist personal freedom equals anarchy. To God, personal freedom is His will.

[Dave B]

Yr. Honor,

I honestly don't think that we liberals give much thought to 'fear of God'. I suits the purposes of the 'Christian Right' (CR) to keep repeating that, but telling a lie 1000 times doesn't make it the truth.

Personally, I don't fear God, because I am (pretty) sure that the morality with which I have tried to live my own life will meet with God's approval when the time comes. Oddly enough, I would be surprised if many Militant Christians are so sure.

I am responsible for my own life, and the lives of my children, at least until they're old enough to take up motorcycles. To say that I want to run Your life is silly. OTOH, wouldn't the CR just love to run mine.

db

[Mikul]

The liberal view of religion is skewed because most of them came of a Christian background or society. While growing up they decided that adultery, fornication, gluttony, sloth, and a few other things really weren't that bad, and then resented the Christian church for telling them so for so long.

The liberal resentment toward religion is only aimed at Christianity. There is an acceptance of eastern religions and pagan religions, but Christianity will open old wounds.

The funny thing is that they ARE a religion. Sure, what they're doing NOW isn't working, but they BELIEVE that if they just make these things illegal, and take just a LITTLE more money from people, then it'll be okay. Of course, that doesn't work, and the process is self-sustaining because they BELIEVE that they can legislate actions. No one can. All you can do is punish the bad ones.



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There are two types of men: those with guns, and those at their mercy.

[Ledbetter]

I don't think they fear God. I think it's a fear of absolute moral virtues against which behavior can be measured. See George Will's column this week for further discussion on the difference between virtues and "liberal values."

I think they fear having to acknowledge the existence of free will.


[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited May 25, 2000).]

[jimmy]

This has probably been said before, but I think liberals reject the worship of God because they worship themselves.

Liberals are a pantheon of godlings who stand above the rest of us. As little gods, they are not subject to the same standards that we are, nor do we have the rights and privileges that they enjoy. They simply lay down the law, which the rest of us must obey.

My $0.02.

[Art Eatman]

Dave B: The Modern American Liberal is not the same thing as the Classical Liberal. The latter style of thought gave us the founding documents of this nation. The Modern American Liberal is predominantly Statist in his thinking--Government *should* decide upon and provide All Things Good to people who do not continually disagree with its definitions.

In almost two years, now, of reading the posts on this board, I have yet to see anybody mention any concept of morality and ethics which does not derive from the Judeo-Christian base.

That very vocal minority of all Christians who are trying to encode their beliefs into our laws are not representative of Christians-at-large. To me it does not seem fair to categorize "All" Christians as wanting some particular idea made into law. We as gun owners resent it when we are all condemned by Rosie as though we are part and parcel of the gun-crime problem, do we not?

So, after reading the posts in this thread, I stand by my previous comments as to the Modern American Liberals of the strongly pro-Billary type. These are not the same as the Classical Liberals; that philosophy pretty much left public life in the late 1920s.

Finally, I would ask: For the last 380 years, what sizable group other than Christians has spoken publicly to issues of morals and ethics?

Regards, Art

[scud]

Just for clarity my definition of liberal is a klintonian socialist. Guess it's not text book just my view so to speak.



[This message has been edited by scud (edited May 25, 2000).]

[Dave B]

C'mon, Art. You don't really believe that all nonChristian religions, organized or otherwise, are amoral. Do you? The Christian view of morality, 'Do unto others...' is far from unique.

As a matter of fact, I suggest that contemporary American Institutional Christianity is so far removed from the teachings of Christ that comparisons between the two are laughable.

The contention that 'Liberals' (or anyone else) are doodoo because they don't buy into the rightWing Christian format is offensive to say the least. Apparently there's a proverb (?) among Christian youth: WWJD. It translates to "What would Jesus Do?". I submit that many people who use it are not really interested in the answer.

db