Roundball VS hollow-point

[Enthusiast]

At which caliber does a lead roundball, like those used in cap and ball revolvers, have the same stopping power as a modern 9mm hollow-point bullet?

[rc]

Well, I would think traditional 44 and 45 cap and ball rounds would be better than 36. I doubt anybody has done the gel testing to compare a modern 9mm with 44 and 45 round balls and conical bullets.

[FrankenMauser]

You'll have to define "stopping power" and the means by which it will be measured.
Along with the rest of the pedant's points of contention: Which 9mm cartridge? What barrel length? Which hollow point? Which weight?
What is the roundball being fired from? A muzzle-loading revolver? A muzzle-loading rifle? A cartridge rifle? A cartridge revolver?

[mehavey]

A Walker might make the cut . . though w/ somewhat different killing mechanism of pure mass/penetration

Every try to CCW a Walker ?

[JohnKSa]

Elmer Keith was very impressed with the "stopping power" of a pure lead ball at blackpowder velocities. Unfortunately, I don't think that at the time there was very much high-quality HP pistol ammo available for comparison.

[44 AMP]

At which caliber does a lead roundball, like those used in cap and ball revolvers, have the same stopping power as a modern 9mm hollow-point bullet?

When they have approximately the same weight and speed. Which is, a pretty rare thing.

[44caliberkid]

Elmer Keith said he talked to a Civil War veteran who said the 36 round ball with a maximum powder charge was a man stopper. I know the recommended powder charge of 11 - 12 grains, for modern cap and ball revolvers, is accurate but pretty anemic. I shoot C&B class in Cowboy Action Shooting, and with that load sometimes the scorer couldn’t hear the bing of the steel plate. So I started loading the chamber full of powder (20 - 22 grains) with just enough room to seat the ball. That made an unmistakable loud BING. I’m not sure you could scientifically compare it with a jacketed hollow point. Soft, pure lead balls will mushroom and do even weirder things when they hit bone or cartilage, personal experience from shooting game. I wouldn’t want to get shot with one. Bill Hickok downed a number of men with a 36 round ball.

[Hawg]

25 grains of black powder behind a .36 caliber round ball ain't nuffin to sneeze at.

[bamaranger]

I have in my archives a magazine article written about 1985 or so that compared a variety of cap & ball loads to modern ammo. I have that article down in the den. The article was written by a guy last name SANOW. He and another scribe last name MARSHALL did a comparison of actual shootings and came up with a percentage likelihood of one shot stop for defensive loads of the era. Sanow could then extrapolate cap & ball stopping percentage . I don't remember the math, but I do have the article, relatively close at hand.

I will locate same and report back. I do remember that "wild Bill's" .36 Navy was rated as the equal of a good .380 hollow point. I'll be back.

[bamaranger]

OK, ...."Handguns", Feb '98, "How good were Wild Bills Colts?"-Ed Sanow.

Sanow measured/compared ballistic gelatin wound channels, to his data base of "one shot stops" in actual shootings and came up with a percentage of likelihood of a one shot stop. Remember this is Sanow in '98, NOT bamaranger. Sanow/Marshall work was criticized a bit, but provides a useful yardstick for comparison.

-.31 RB percussion, 30% stops, modern equal, .22 lr HP
.36 RB. 59% stop, 88 gr.380 JHP
.44 RB, Army, 75% stop, 200 gr .44 spl lead HP
.44 Walker RB, 87% stop, .210 gr .41 mag JHP

The RB was faster than conical, displaced more gelatin, and was superior to the respective conicals in all bore dia's. SANOW had data for conicals, (velocities and charge weights for both) but I am not posting same in consideration for brevity.

[Jim Watson]

Once upon a time it was commonly said that the .44 Walker Colt was the most powerful handgun made until the development of the .357 Magnum. I think the .45 Colt got overlooked.

[105kw]

Back in the late 70s, we played with cap and ball Revolvers quite a bit.
It was easy to get a .36 Colt Navy, or Remington up to 900fps with a round ball. So yes it would act a lot like a .380.
.44 1860, and Remingtons were a little slower, but 850-900ish was normal. Again round ball loads. That gives 38 Special velocity, with a larger diameter bullet.
Pure lead balls deform if the hit something hard.

[Hawg]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Once upon a time it was commonly said that the .44 Walker Colt was the most powerful handgun made until the development of the .357 Magnum. I think the .45 Colt got overlooked.

It wasn't overlooked.

[bamaranger]

Sanow claimed he drove a RB with 60 gr of 3F to 1280 fps plus, for just over 500 ft/lbs of energy.

[44 AMP]

Sanow claimed he drove a RB with 60 gr of 3F to 1280 fps plus, for just over 500 ft/lbs of energy.

This would be the max charge from a Walker Dragoon, and the weight of a 44 round ball is about 140gr.

[Jack19]

Big fat and slow still does the job.

[Lurch37]

Big fat and slow still does the job.

I tell my boss that all the time.

[bamaranger]

As noted earlier, Elmer Keith claimed the LRB driven at max velocity was a better "stopper" than the conoidal/picket style bullet of the same caliber in percussion revolvers. The Sanow/Marshall study reflected that opinion, the faster, soft pure lead round ball actually deformed a bit and the higher velocity contributed to wound cavity development also. The LRB is lighter of than the respective conical. Additionally, cowboy action shooters report that the RB is typically more accurate.

Interestingly, at least in the Civil War era, the revolver was issued with paper cartridges loaded with conicals. Better penetration at distance and against horses. Not to say that round balls were not in service, but issue was the conical, at least in the Union army.

[Drm50]

I have killed dead, grave yard dead with cast Wadcutter taching along at 650-700FPS.
This bullet 95% lead- 5% tin, 242gr. 45cal. from S&W m25-5. I would guess that the blunter a lead bullet is the more it will deform on impact. The more pointed the tip the less resistance, it eases the way for the main diameter to follow. Thus less expansion on impact.

[5whiskey]

I've chronograph several of my C&B revolvers. A full size NMA or 1860 colt holds its own with 9mm. In fact, most 147gn 9mm ammo out of normal sized modern handguns struggles to achieve 1100fps. A .45 ball weighing 140gns will average 1120fps with 37gns of OE fffg under it by my chronograph (out of a Uberti NMA). Of course with standard goex or Schutzen powder it's more like 970 fps, so the powder makes a giant difference.

A lead ball is also purported to give a very good mix of penetration and adequate tissue damage in regards to terminal ballistics. I've not hunted enough since I took up BP shooting to weigh in, i'm simply repeating what i've read. External ballistics of a round ball, as most know, are atrocious. The BC has a zero for the tenths digit.

[44 AMP]

In fact, most 147gn 9mm ammo out of normal sized modern handguns struggles to achieve 1100fps.

Are you aware that the "usual" 147gr 9mm Luger load was created to be subsonic (less than 1100fps) when fired out of suppressed SMGs?

Generally speaking, SMGs have longer barrels (sometimes double the pistol length) and the standard reference value for the speed of sound in air is 1125fps (this varies with several factors, particularly air density)

So a round intended to stay subsonic when fired out of an 8in or so barrel IS going to "struggle" to reach 1100fps from the usual 4 or 5" service pistol barrel, and rightly so.

[bamaranger]

I have read speculation that the reason so many of the old gunfighters and outlaws (Frank Hamer for one) survived multiple gunshot wounds over the course of their careers was the inefficiency of the RN or RNFP handgun bullets of the day in cutting tissue and creating trauma. Keith came up with his famous SWC as an improvement over those earlier designs. Cooper advocated a LSWC in .45acp in his early writings. This was prior any reliable JHP.

I think 37 gr in a Rem or Colt army would be a max load for sure and knocking on the door of what a dragoon could do. Sanow in his study claimed the Army revolvers exceeded the 9mm JHP of the day as well....Sanow listed his RB load in the article, but I cannot recall exactly, 30-35 grain?

I have also read that the charge weights (and picket bullet weights as well) varied by maker and subsequent issue. That would effect performance of the .44 Army's widely.

[Double Naught Spy]

Elmer Keith said he talked to a Civil War veteran who said the 36 round ball with a maximum powder charge was a man stopper.

Of course, in the 1860s, a lot of things were man stoppers that we wouldn't give quite so much credence to today. Twice as many people died from disease than from battlefield wounds. Medical care was abysmal at the time.

So Elmer Keith talked to a Civil War veteran who claimed it was a man stopper. Where does the credibility of the statement come from. Forget Elmer Keith. He was just the messenger. What you have is an unattributed anecdotal soldier story. Given the anecdotal ballistic performance stories we have heard coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan in the last couple of decades, it could have some validity or very little.

So what we are left with is a statement by some Civil War soldier that liked the caliber for some reason without really knowing his experience with it or any other basis for his remarks.

[5whiskey]

I think 37 gr in a Rem or Colt army would be a max load for sure and knocking on the door of what a dragoon could do.

Oh for sure. And this is with nothing between the ball and powder, and a significant amount of force to compress the powder when seating the ball. Not a normal range load. But it will launch that ball at impressive speeds.

[44 AMP]

So Elmer Keith talked to a Civil War veteran who claimed it was a man stopper. Where does the credibility of the statement come from. Forget Elmer Keith. He was just the messenger. What you have is an unattributed anecdotal soldier story. Given the anecdotal ballistic performance stories we have heard coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan in the last couple of decades, it could have some validity or very little.

We are all free to believe or disbelieve what we wish. You might consider that Wild Bill Hickock, someone who had experience shooting people, kept his round ball .36 Colts when he could have use something other people thought was "better". He knew what worked and how to make it work, and that, I think, counts for more than any paper statistics or gel testing today.

And, as far as stories about what worked or didn't in Iraq and Afghanistan, do remember what our troops were using in their issued pistols. FMJ.

Quite a bit different from lead round ball.