Sheriff illegally takes away a Glock 26 from a Soccer Mom!

[Conn. Trooper]

Everybody is saying that the Sheriff is wrong and should not have revoked her permit. Does anyone on here know if he has the legal right to revoke her permit? I dont know the law in Pennsylvania, maybe the sheriff has the right to revoke her permit and hold a revocation hearing?

I personally question the judgement of anyone carrying an openly displayed weapon at a child's soccer game, especially after she was asked not to openly carry the gun as it made other people concerned. That sounds like she was trying to make a point of carrying the gun and has other motives.

For those among us that say "Its my right! Its my right! Its my right! I dont have to explain why I do anything." Thats great, its my right not to shower and brush my teeth. Just because you have the right to do something does not make it a good idea. Carrying an unconcealed firearm at a childs soccer game after being asked not to puts your judgement in question. In my opinion.

For the replies that say "People should just get used to seeing guns out on display on every man, woman, and child." I believe that can cause one of several reactions.
1) People who were anti-gun already will have an issue with this.
2) People who were neutral on the subject of guns may now have a negative opinion and attempt to change the laws against guns.
3) Some people will not care.
Guns scare people and make some people nervous and uncomfortable. Maybe they shouldn't , but they do. Why possibly make things worse for gun ownership by waving your guns in the faces of people who are scared by them? If the wrong person is seeing this and does not like it, the "right" to carry openly may go away. What if one of the people at the game was a state lawmaker? She/he decides that its time to change the law and ban open carry everywhere? Is it worth it?

[Playboypenguin]

I loved this lady's responses! She clearly knew her stuff, and handled herself VERY well. Well done--and I say that as a pro word-wrangler.

Are we watching the same videos??? She seemed coached, stumbled and stammered continuously, and avoided most questions by spouting soundbites.

[Shorts]

Everybody is saying that the Sheriff is wrong and should not have revoked her permit. Does anyone on here know if he has the legal right to revoke her permit? I dont know the law in Pennsylvania, maybe the sheriff has the right to revoke her permit and hold a revocation hearing?

The Sheriff does have the authority to revoke conceal carry permits. He is also the one that issues permits. The argument is that the Sheriff did not conduct a proper investigation before pulling Hain's permit, thus denying her due process.


Hain did pursue the appeal and her permit was reinstated after an editorial from the judge. (the appeal transcript pdf is linked in my post up there and it does reveal alot, actually in this case very little, about what the Sheriff discovered in his "investigation")

[Musketeer]

I find it outrageous, some of the comments here. You all sound like Brady supporters. One poster even said that she might get mad and shoot at a referee for calling a foul on her kid. That sounds like a "blood in the streets" argument to me.

Would you be referring to this statement of mine?
I wrote:

In addition while I do not have a problem with lawful ccw at a kid's sporting event OC is nothing but inflammatory in the era where psycho parents get into fistfights over a bad call. Having that gun on her hip exposed could easily be seen by a reasonable person as a statement made to intimidate the ref or others.

Because what I said is not what you claimed although it is the closest I can find to what you may be referring to.

1. Her choice of OC at such a venue calls into question her judgment. Do I think she is going to whip it out to shoot the ref? No. Is it possible given her choice of "in your face carry" that she was looking to intimidate with the mere presence of the weapon being known. Certainly.

2. Kid's sporting events are, like bars, full of emotionally charged morons willing to escalate situations well beyond the limits of reason. I choose not to hang out in bars full of morons (armed or not). I may have to be present at a kids sporting event but I am certainly NOT going to escalate a situation. Normal citizens wearing a gun openly will draw an emotional reaction. It may be people shying away or it may act as incentive, the old "I'll call your bluff." One way or the other it ADDS emotion into an already emotionally charged venue.

The woman was exercising her right. I have a right to walk up to anyone on the street and accuse them of sexual relations with their mother, but that does not make it right. The law was never intended to be the end all be all deciding factor in right vs. wrong. She may have been acting within the law but she was still wrong. She still hurts the cause of lawful carry by showing poor judgment in her manner of exercising it. She still looks like a moron for suing because people treat her differently since they know she is armed when she was the one open carrying.

Every person wronged by a legal authority is not automatically our poster child for 2A rights. This woman was a moron, along with the sheriff. We do not need to put one on a pedestal in order to point out the misbehavior of the other.

[Musketeer]

I personally question the judgement of anyone carrying an openly displayed weapon at a child's soccer game, especially after she was asked not to openly carry the gun as it made other people concerned. That sounds like she was trying to make a point of carrying the gun and has other motives.

BINGO!

[OuTcAsT]

I personally question the judgement of anyone carrying an openly displayed weapon at a child's soccer game, especially after she was asked not to openly carry the gun as it made other people concerned. That sounds like she was trying to make a point of carrying the gun and has other motives.

BINGO!

Doesn't matter, thankfully it is not your (collective) call to make, even the judge knew that. It's her right, and she exercised it, don't like it ? too bad.


I had to look at my browser to make sure I had not been re-directed to some anti-2A site

after reading some of these type responses.

[Conn. Trooper]

Correct! Not my call and I dont have to like it. Personally its 2 states away from me so if I had all day to try I could not make myself care any less. The point is someone or multiple someones at the game may care and start a push towards banning open carry. Or any carry. Or carry on Sundays, or within 500 feet of kids. Thats the point.

I also question the judgement of anyone whose only defense is still "But its my right. If you don't like it too bad." Thats a great argument. Again, I have the right to wear a lime green Speedo to the pool, and to never shower again, and to wear a rainbow colored clown wig. Just because you have the right to do something does not mean you should.

[OuTcAsT]

I also question the judgement of anyone whose only defense is still "But its my right. If you don't like it too bad."

What part of this do some still not get, you say her only defense...
wait right there, since it is a Right, she does not need a defense, when you have a right, you do not need anything as a defense.

[Shorts]

"but it's my right"

That is the only reason that will legally hold up. Settling in for a good debate with an anti is an exercise in futility. While all logical and practical reasons for OC are presented, the opposition can only retort using feelings and emotion; scared, panic, uncomfortable. Then the crimes/statistics, & murdered kids.


I challenge anyone here to have a discussion with an anti about OC and it'll turn into a gun vs no gun argument. They just do not separate the two and the arguments merge and not only are you trying to present an OC position, but you're forced into presenting a progun position.


The concern was raised that this case will only give antis a reason to shut down carry, open carry at least. Ok, that's a legitimate concern I guess. But this isn't the first case of an OCer denied his/her due process rights or wrongfully detained and gun confiscated. This has been going on for a while. If OC is LEGAL, why is the law enforcement on this issue problematic?

[Musketeer]

You have a "right" to be a:

Racist
Homophobe
Anti-Semite
Immature
Nazi
Liar
Adulterer
Alcoholic
Smoker
Glutton
Porn Addict
Gambling Addict
numerous other "stupid" things...

Just because something is a "right" does not mean it is something you should be doing. If you believe the opposite then you must think it is the government's job to legislate on every issue of right and wrong. Is that the road you "It's Her Right!" folks want to follow?

That is the only reason that will legally hold up. Settling in for a good debate with an anti is an exercise in futility. While all logical and practical reasons for OC are presented, the opposition can only retort using feelings and emotion; scared, panic, uncomfortable. Then the crimes/statistics, & murdered kids.

Your facts (in your opinion anyway, but even assuming they are) will not matter more than a steaming load of dog excrement when the majority of the populace supports changing the law because of idiots like this woman. What so many of our noble 2A warriors fail to understand is EMOTION is a long proven and highly effective motivator with regards to enacting legislation. Your statistics and facts do not matter one bit if the majority FEELS differently. EMOTION is a valid component, and always has been in the legislative process. EMOTION is also a key factor in any personal encounter and the OC commandos out there fail to acknowledge that the EMOTIONAL RESPONSE that OC in the wrong setting generates has negative effects on the safety of those present as well as the rights you currently enjoy but can easily loose.

Until the Pro-2A community learns to deal with emotion they will always be limited to the support of only a fraction of the populace.

Is there any setting where you OC supporters do not think OC should be practiced out of good sense? Bars, Kids Sporting Events, Mosh Pits, Divorce Trials... Anything?

This woman had a right to Open Carry and she also had a right to be wrong. She fully exercised both.

[Conn. Trooper]

Ok, a few things, she was not unlawfully detained or denied due process. Someone who claims to know has already posted the sheriff has the right to revoke her permit pending a hearing. He did that, she prevailed at the hearing. Thats due process right there. You get arrested, you go to court and get acquitted, thats also due process, same thing.

What exactly does anyone have to gain, or what benefit is there to carrying an openly displayed weapon at a childs soccer game? After being asked not to carry openly in the past. All that can do is create an issue and cause problems, for all gun owners.

The supporters of open carry always fall back on "Its my right, I dont have to explain or need any other reason." Great, wonderful answer. And when Sally SoccerMom offends Joe PotatoSalad and he calls his buddy the state lawmaker and says " Hey, Mr. Lawmaker, remember me, the guy who gave money to your last campaign? I am tired of seeing a gun on some lady at my kids soccer game. The league asked her not to carry it, she still carries it. We bitched to the Sheriff and he revoked her permit but Judge AppleSauce gave it back. Maybe its time to make it a crime to display a gun." Then the "It's my right!" gang will all be up the creek.

On a side note, I am not an anti. I have been shooting since my grandfather taught me with an old .22 when I was 8 years old. I own every type of firearm known to man. I again question the judgement of anyone displaying a weapon at a childrens soccer game, especially after being asked not to. There is no reason for it other than
1) Just to be a jackass
2) Just to make a statement

[MrNiceGuy]

The supporters of open carry always fall back on "Its my right, I dont have to explain or need any other reason." Great, wonderful answer. And when Sally SoccerMom offends Joe PotatoSalad and he calls his buddy the state lawmaker and says " Hey, Mr. Lawmaker, remember me, the guy who gave money to your last campaign? I am tired of seeing a gun on some lady at my kids soccer game. The league asked her not to carry it, she still carries it. We bitched to the Sheriff and he revoked her permit but Judge AppleSauce gave it back. Maybe its time to make it a crime to display a gun." Then the "It's my right!" gang will all be up the creek.

On a side note, I am not an anti.

so you're not an anti.... you support the right... as long as it's not exercised... because then it might be taken away

okay.... well, thankfully you have the right to be oblivious
unfortunately, you're exercising it

[Shorts]

Until the Pro-2A community learns to deal with emotion they will always be limited to the support of only a fraction of the populace.

I see your point on this one. I agree, the emotion is a difficult hurdle to overcome on this one. So then how do you deal with it and not sneak around like a thief? Will it always be a 'hide your shame' for gun owners? How does one solve, not ignore, not hide, but SOLVE the emotional hurdle that must be cleared in regards to guns? What must be said that will change the populaces outlook on guns and gun owners? Obviously the things that have been said before aren't ringing any bells as there are still antigun sentiments. What's the solution?

Ok, a few things, she was not unlawfully detained or denied due process. Someone who claims to know has already posted the sheriff has the right to revoke her permit pending a hearing. He did that, she prevailed at the hearing. Thats due process right there. You get arrested, you go to court and get acquitted, thats also due process, same thing.

Are you looking at user names when you read? That someone was me

The action contested is that the Sheriff revoked her permit without a proper investigation.

[Playboypenguin]

The action contested is that the Sheriff revoked her permit without a proper investigation.

I am not sure about there, but here the sheriff can suspend the permit immediately pending an investigation.

so you're not an anti.... you support the right... as long as it's not exercised... because then it might be taken away

Maybe he supports the right as long as it is exercised with discretion and consideration...and realized exercising it haphazardly or to just be contrary can result in a negative backlash. This woman received prior requests from the organizers of the event to not carry openly at the event and chose to do so anyway. That is the defining circumstance of the event. She was not just carrying at the mall or around the neighborhood. She was choosing to disregard the requests of the organizing party of the soccer league to make a point and then cannot even adequately voice what that point was.

[Shorts]

This woman received prior requests from the organizers of the event to not carry openly at the event and chose to do so anyway.

She never received any complaints prior to this particular soccer game. She wore OC to the games prior to.





Here is the pdf of the Right to Know Act Response by Lebanon County of the communications about Hain after the soccer game and prior to permit revocation.

[Playboypenguin]

She never received any complaints prior to this particular soccer game. She wore OC to the games prior to.

I am pretty sure the video I watched mentioned that she had received prior requests to not carry openly at the games. She was ebven asked in the interview why she chose to still carry after being asked not to do so.

[Shorts]

I am pretty sure the video I watched mentioned that she had received prior requests to not carry openly at the games. She was ebven asked in the interview why she chose to still carry after being asked not to do so.

Ok. I'll check that again to get my facts straight. I was going on that she was going to continue OC after the soccer game in question in which she was asked not to.

[Conn. Trooper]

My point exactly, thank you PBP. Common sense and discretion are required when carrying a gun, driving a car, dressing yourself. There are places where open carry is accepted with zero issues, this was not the case here. I have asked more than once and nobody has come up with even a half assed reason. Why would anyone continue to carry openly at a childs soccer game after being asked not to. Why would anyone carry openly even without being asked not to? Why would you? Lets hear from some of the people that are screaming in support of this second amendment crusader. Any argument other than its my right? Anything?

[Conn. Trooper]

Ok, I read the emails and it clearly states that she was asked in person and in writing that she not carry the gun openly. The soccer league sent her a letter asking her not to carry it because multiple people including parents and officials complained. Yet she continued to carry it anyway. I question her judgement throughout the enitre event.

It seems she wants to be a police officer and her husband is a parole official of some kind.

[zxcvbob]

I mentioned in post #75 that if she has her hands full with a toddler or something, OC will be a *much* faster draw if she ever needs it.

Why would anyone continue to carry openly at a childs soccer game after being asked not to

Because the person that asked (demanded) had no authority to do so?

Why would you [open carry]?

I probably wouldn't. But I also wouldn't presume to tell someone else that her rights are not worth exercising if *she* thought it was a good idea.

[Conn. Trooper]

"I mentioned in post #75 that if she has her hands full with a toddler or something, OC will be a *much* faster draw if she ever needs it. "

So when the gunfight breaks out at the soccer game she will return fire one handed while holding a toddler? Thats someone with the judgement and common sense to carry a firearm? Are you kidding? Was that a joke?

[dano1200r]

From ConnTrooper"My point exactly, thank you PBP. Common sense and discretion are required when carrying a gun, driving a car, dressing yourself. There are places where open carry is accepted with zero issues, this was not the case here. I have asked more than once and nobody has come up with even a half assed reason. Why would anyone continue to carry openly at a childs soccer game after being asked not to"
And one more thing:
Maybe the children didn't want her openly carrying there either. After all it is about the safety and well being, both physically, mentally and emotionally of the children, right?

[Shorts]

Conn Trooper, if you're interested in learning more about OC, I invite you over to opencarry.org to continue.

Many of the questions and issues you've asked about here, as well as calling out more OC supporters, are addressed and ongoing at opencarry.org.

Get over there and post away

Much much more discussion is available on this particular case if anyone wants to get into it further. Don't let this post be your only source. Many here are asking questions that are better suited for OCDO and are pretty darn fired up about getting your retorts out. Well, get 'em out, opencarry.org.

[cchardwick]

I got this from page 2 of this discussion:

The Brady Center supports common sense gun policies that protect children and communities from gun violence. Every day, eight children and teens are shot and killed by a firearm and 48 more are wounded. Firearms are the second-leading cause of death (after motor vehicle accidents) for young people ages 1-19 in the U.S.

I know the Brady Center tried to use this for an argument against guns, but I think it's the best argument FOR guns! It seems to me that most of the worst gun crimes occur in 'Gun Free Zones', or areas where it's least likely that someone has a gun. That's why shooters can just keep shooting away with no one to stop them. I think we should train and arm responsible civillians who often visit these 'zones'. This would hamper criminals/shooters or at least stop them after the third or fourth shot! Better yet we should have GOVERNMENT funded programs where any civilian can get a FREE GUN and get FREE TRAINING and FREE AMMO. That way we would ensure that the 'good guys' are properly armed and trained. How about giving veterans free guns and ammo and no hassle open carry options?

If anyone frowns on our right to open carry I say the cops shouldn't be able to open carry either. The same arguments can be made against the cops as those against law abiding citizens.

[Playboypenguin]

The problem with that statistic is that the vast majority of those "children" that are killed/injured each day are gang members under the age of 21.