Sheriff illegally takes away a Glock 26 from a Soccer Mom!

[SigfanTN]

What got me fired up about this is the way the top LEO in the county takes a couple of complaints, conducts an "investigation" and revokes the permit. I don't care how smart Hain is or how well she uses judgment in certain social situations. Lots of people make far worse mistakes in judgment, and get far less punishment. Having to go to a court hearing and pay attorney fees IS punishment.

Some of you are so fixated on the open carry, but she is allowed by state law to do so, if I have read things correctly. She said it's easier for her to feel protected (which IS the reason we carry a gun) when she carries that way. In fact what does revoking her permit do to prevent her from this mode of carry, since, again I have gathered from these posts, that PA only requires the permit for concealment? If Hain used poor judgment the sheriff also did not use good judgment in dealing with this situation or in conducting his "investigation" IMO.

For those of you that carry concealed, do you take it off if you are not legally required to do so? If you are taking the kids to Chuck E. Cheese's do you leave it at home? If so, is it because of the children? They would give me more reason to carry so I could protect my own. Hain could have opted to conceal and taken a path of less resistance, but she did not. She chose the method that makes her feel most safe and effective if a threat occurs. We, as gun owners, have already chosen to take a path that is also not the one of least resistance.

If you want to be worried about things that generate emotion, then you should be much more concerned about the recent Santa shootings or any of the other events that have happened recently stirring up those emotional anti-gunners. Those are negative events that will seriously hurt us. I do not see Hain's case as a potential detriment to 2A, but it could be another positive.

I will concede that we would not be talking about this and Hain would most likely not have had run-ins with anyone about her carrying a gun if she had chosen to conceal. She made a personal choice, and it seems her attempt was to at least try to educate the coach (or referee...can't remember) by giving him some literature after she complied with his request to move to a different part of the field. Possibly she is trying to be an activist in her community and wants to educate people that yes, you can carry a gun to protect you and your family. The point is, that she did nothing wrong other than offend some folks at a public event and on public property, and that shouldn't be a punishable offense.

Heck, there may have even been a racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, immature, Nazi who may also be a lying, adulterous, alcoholic smoker known to have problems with gluttony, porn addiction, and gambling addiction among numerous other "stupid" things there trying to watch the game

[Socrates]

Senior Member

Join Date: 2006-08-12
Posts: 1,029

I find it outrageous, some of the comments here. You all sound like Brady supporters. One poster even said that she might get mad and shoot at a referee for calling a foul on her kid. That sounds like a "blood in the streets" argument to me.

How do we defend our rights in this country? We need to lobby our legislators, and get the laws passed that we want. When that fails, we work within the legal system to overturn bad laws. In order to do that, a person needs standing to go to court. Unfortunately, the only way to have standing in this country is to be damaged in some way. That means being charged criminally, or being able to show financial loss.

It is people like Hain, Heller, and others who help support our rights- they are fighting for our rights and our freedoms. Hain broke no laws, and is taking on an obviously anti-gun sheriff to defend our rights. Is it in your face? Of course it is. Sometimes that is the only way to defend freedom. Before shall issue, I carried OC in Virginia for years, and was repeatedly harassed by LEOs for that. The people who did that are the one of the reasons you have a CCW now.

Where would we be if George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and the other FF's had been worried about being too confrontational with the Brits?

Some of your comments make me think that you people here are sunshine patriots.

So, does she need to be gay, black, Jewish, what to garner support in this forum?

Or, does she need to be good in interviews?
I learned from my position as a teacher and an official:
Limit comments. Gives the other side no issue to hang their hat on.
Here, that position is scene as incompetence in public speaking, being a moron, etc.

The comments here are making me SERIOUSLY reconsider my membership here.

I guess you have to be Barack Obama to carry a gun and get support in this forum?

YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED.

REWIND. We all love the 2nd amendment. These people hate it, and fear it. Think NAZI, facist-liberal, whatever it takes to get you that we need to support people that reestablish the existence of the Second Amendment.
My support of that amendment may well cost me a job I currently have. WHY? Facist-liberals. They are as ruthless as Hitler, in enforcing their anti-gun agenda, and, anything that doesn't agree with their political agenda. Be it gay rights, female rights, human rights, etc.
PICK one.

I will say again: THE POLICE CHIEF MADE THIS WOMAN A POLITICAL FOOTBALL, IN HOPE OF GETTING THE STATE LEGISLATURE TO LIMIT THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO FREE CARRY. IF THIS WAS IN TEXAS, HE MIGHT BE BEHEADED.
OPEN CARRY=THE NEW GAY RIGHTS ISSUE...

[Musketeer]

So, does she need to be gay, black, Jewish, what to garner support in this forum?

Or, does she need to be good in interviews?
I learned from my position as a teacher and an official:
Limit comments. Gives the other side no issue to hang their hat on.
Here, that position is scene as incompetence in public speaking, being a moron, etc.

She simply needs to not be an idiot who incites the general public against lawful carry by showing lousy judgment in how she does so.

The comments here are making me SERIOUSLY reconsider my membership here.

I guess you have to be Barack Obama to carry a gun and get support in this forum?

YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED.

No, you just shouldn't be stupid. Personally I am not ashamed one bit for my opinion but if you feel the need to go because of it then nobody is keeping you here.

[Musketeer]

Heck, there may have even been a racist, homophobic, anti-Semitic, immature, Nazi who may also be a lying, adulterous, alcoholic smoker known to have problems with gluttony, porn addiction, and gambling addiction among numerous other "stupid" things there trying to watch the game

and I also wouldn't want him on the sidelines reading Penthouse, swigging Jack Daniels, lighting up near the kids while wearing his Nazi T-Shirt with "Kill all Jews" across the back and a KKK button, eating three pizzas and talking to his bookie.

[Socrates]

Musketeer
Senior Member

Join Date: 2005-09-12
Posts: 3,428

and I also wouldn't want him on the sidelines reading Penthouse, swigging Jack Daniels, lighting up near the kids while wearing his Nazi T-Shirt with "Kill all Jews" across the back and a KKK button, eating three pizzas and talking to his bookie.

Freedom is balanced against government intervention. You want the illusion of perfect safety, have a dictatorship, or oligarchy, that feeds you the myth they are protecting you perfectly, until something like the Rodney King riots exposes their lies, and inability to do what they promise.

Ms. Hain is the new gay. Keep it in the closet....
]

[OuTcAsT]

The point is, that she did nothing wrong other than offend some folks at a public event and on public property, and that shouldn't be a punishable offense.

EXACTLY! And the judge agreed. The thing is, no matter how you "feel" about OC, It is legal in a lot of places, and people (myself included) do so on a regular basis. Why? "Because I can" seems like a good enough answer to a question that (as long as I am within my rights, and the law) is really none of your business.

So, does she need to be gay, black, Jewish, what to garner support in this forum?

Apparently she only needs to give up or "hide" her rights, something that none of these groups will abide.

Keep it in the closet....

That's how it looks :barf:

YOU SHOULD ALL BE ASHAMED.

+1 Socrates

[Musketeer]

Freedom is balanced against government intervention.

Nice soundbite. How about this one?

With rights come responsibilities.

Note that I have not called for Ms. Hain to have her permit pulled, gun taken, be arrested or anything else of the sort. I do NOT want the gov't involved although she certainly did! I want her to exercise her right responsibly. I have a right to wear a speedo but you don't see me doing it at a kids sporting event (and trust me, you don't want to see me doing it anywhere!).

Her OC was irresponsible on several levels.

1. It does nothing but create ill will towards the carrying public and the 2A. She has only managed to rally some 2A fanatics to her side while at the same time getting on the wrong side of many people who might have been undecided on the issue. Good Work!

2. The presence of an openly carried firearm by someone who is NOT a duly appointed authority figure at a kids sporting event has every possibility and expectation of ESCALATING a situation. As already stated, parents get wildly carried away at these things, fisticuffs ensue and Ms. Hain's OC can be reasonably expected to egg on many people into what is now an altercation involving a firearm.

[zukiphile]

With rights come responsibilities.

While this is an aphorism burned into each of our minds from adolescence, it isn't really true. You can vote irresponsibly but that doesn't mean you thereafter lose your right to vote.

She has only managed to rally some 2A fanatics to her side while at the same time getting on the wrong side of many people who might have been undecided on the issue. Good Work!

I see no evidence of this. This sort of event should just as reasonably bring to the attention of those who never thought about the matter before that soccer moms can carry, and it isn't anything properly the subject of a hubbub.

People in the UK once felt so odd about any of the police being armed that these men once carried with the gun wrapped in a handkercheif and stuffed into a pocket. I imagine they are more accepting now that they've seen it more often.

It doesn't seem possible to habituate people to carrying of arms without letting them know that people carry arms.

I do NOT want the gov't involved although she certainly did!

I see little evidence of this. It seems that if the government in the person of a sheriff takes action against you, the government is already involved.

2. The presence of an openly carried firearm by someone who is NOT a duly appointed authority figure ...

Why would that make a difference? A police officer isn't a generalised authority figure; we don't ask him questions about string theory or economics. He is there is enforce the criminal law.

...at a kids sporting event has every possibility and expectation of ESCALATING a situation. As already stated, parents get wildly carried away at these things, fisticuffs ensue and Ms. Hain's OC can be reasonably expected to egg on many people into what is now an altercation involving a firearm.

By that logic, the police should not be carrying either. The presence of a gun would only cause an already volatile public to get even more carried away, and gun ranges would suffer non-stop "fisticuffs." My experience is that guns shows, ranges and police stations feature generally well behaved people.

The position opposite your intuition is easy to make. The presence of armed parents would tend to discourage lunatic expressions of "team spirit".

[cchardwick]

Her OC was irresponsible on several levels.

1. It does nothing but create ill will towards the carrying public and the 2A. She has only managed to rally some 2A fanatics to her side while at the same time getting on the wrong side of many people who might have been undecided on the issue. Good Work!

2. The presence of an openly carried firearm by someone who is NOT a duly appointed authority figure at a kids sporting event has every possibility and expectation of ESCALATING a situation. As already stated, parents get wildly carried away at these things, fisticuffs ensue and Ms. Hain's OC can be reasonably expected to egg on many people into what is now an altercation involving a firearm.
__________________

So it sounds like you are wanting a law against open carry? If this isn't anti-2nd amendment I don't know what is.

[Musketeer]

So it sounds like you are wanting a law against open carry? If this isn't anti-2nd amendment I don't know what is.

None of you get it or are actually able to read a full post. I have repeatedly NOT called for new laws on this. My concern is the the lack of responsibility shown by her. I do not believe it is the gov't's job to legislate responsibility. There need not be a law on something for it to be right or wrong.

[zxcvbob]

Would she be irresponsible if she were a guy? Or is the whole issue "mommies shouldn't need a gun"? I think that might be a big part of the uproar.

[Playboypenguin]

Would she be irresponsible if she were a guy? Or is the whole issue "mommies shouldn't need a gun"? I think that might be a big part of the uproar.

Hey! Read all the posts. I already asked that question, copycat.

[zxcvbob]

Sorry about that, Chief!

[Pahoo]

I saw the intervue and still have the same opinion I posted earlier. One thing that I feel got lost in the interview or at least confused, is the distinction of what is legal and what is ethical. Of course she was legal in carrying. In fact, I wish more Socker-Moms could carry. But she showed poor judgement and stupidity by where she carries open. I'll bet she has taken more than a second look at what she did. A measure of acceptance on her unethical conduct is:

• Gun-Grabbers would clearly say that she was wrong in all aspect of this situation. Surprise, Surprise
• A large percentage of fine gun owners on this forum think she was 100% right.
• Another large percentage of fine gun owners on this forum think she is not squeeky clean in her conduct.

On top of that, she was showing a Glock, my word !!! ??

Be Safe, Legal and Ehtical !!!

[Conn. Trooper]

Lets try this theory. Change this story from soccer mom asked not to openly carry to "Police Officer asked to stop openly carrying at a childs soccer game." The vast majority of opinions would change. I can see the replies bashing the cop now. "Why is it ok for the cop and not for me?" "He was already asked by the league not to carry openly to the games and he still does, he should be fired." Etc etc.

Some people are too quick to support a gun owner no matter what the situation. Just because somebody owns a gun does not immediatley make them the 2a poster child. Not every gun owner should be a gun owner, nor does every gun owner possess the common sense needed to carry in a responsible manner.

[OuTcAsT]

My concern is the the lack of responsibility shown by her.

OK Let me get this straight:

1. She was duly licensed to carry concealed...Check.

2. She did not need a license to carry openly...Check

3. She kept the firearm safely holstered in a retention rig...Check

4. There was no law or ordinance that prevented her from OC...Check

5. She even accomodated the people who were "Un-Comfortable" by moving to another area of the field...Check

With all this in mind, please show me a "Lack of Responsibility"

I just gave a list of 5 (Five) responsible actions, this does not include her obvious awareness of her "Responsibility" to protect herself, and family.
It also does not include her evident knowledge of the laws regarding her rights, Hell, she even tried to educate the unwashed masses about the law!

The only thing I see is someone who understands "Responsibility" quite well, and is not compromising her, or her families safety just so someone else will feel "Comfortable".

This nonesense about:

The presence of an openly carried firearm by someone who is NOT a duly appointed authority figure at a kids sporting event has every possibility and expectation of ESCALATING a situation. As already stated, parents get wildly carried away at these things, fisticuffs ensue and Ms. Hain's OC can be reasonably expected to egg on many people into what is now an altercation involving a firearm

Sounds like the old tired "It's for the children" montra with a pretty bow on top.

Please show me, and those like me, how anything she did can be classified as "A lack of responsibility" without just coming out and saying that we should pander to folks who already are "Un-Comfortable" about citizens having a right to carry.

Is this Really still TFL ? <checking for re-directs to Brady.yuk>

[Playboypenguin]

Lets try this theory. Change this story from soccer mom asked not to openly carry to "Police Officer asked to stop openly carrying at a childs soccer game." The vast majority of opinions would change.

Wow, I am betting you are way off base there. This forum is full of cop haters. I am betting alot of them would love to see that happen.

[zxcvbob]

I don't think anyone would ask a cop not to carry -- *anywhere* (except maybe a church/temple/synagogue/mosque/whatever)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect we would be discussing what an idiot the requestor was.

[Conn. Trooper]

My point exactly PBP, I am coming to realize that some people will back her no matter what and I wasting my time presenting a viewpoint they dont agree with. Thats fine, thats why we are all here, at least it hasn't got down to name calling yet. I have had this argument before on open vs. concealed. Open carry supporters are adamant that there way is the right way, so to speak. I disagree but thats what makes this country great, the freedom to choose.

[Musketeer]

Lets try this theory. Change this story from soccer mom asked not to openly carry to "Police Officer asked to stop openly carrying at a childs soccer game." The vast majority of opinions would change.

Contrary to what some have suggested here cops are accepted authority figures in our society and as such people are not only accepting of their being armed but generally expect it.

Sounds like the old tired "It's for the children" montra with a pretty bow on top.

Please read my posting again. Kids sporting events have shown a significant tendency to incite violence among immature parents. The presence of that firearm exposed on the hip of someone not recognized as an authority figure (cop) can be fully expected to draw a response from someone already having issues with self control. I have not said DON'T carry it, I just believe it makes sense to keep it concealed since the vast majority of the public is not supportive of open carry at the soccer game! Now she can by law keep doing so and I guarantee the result will be a far more restrictive law being passed on the matter. Good Work!

[zukiphile]

The presence of that firearm exposed on the hip of someone not recognized as an authority figure (cop) can be fully expected to draw a response from someone already having issues with self control.

Why?

A friend who does domestic violence counselling notes that guys who demonstrate their violent anger by punching a hole in the drywall almost never hit a stud and break a hand. They invariably hit hollow drywall.

This suggests that even people who have issues in anger control still have a deliberative process.

I would think that the verbally abusive and aggressive soccer/little league parent who notices armed people in his midst would be inspired to less offensive conduct.

[JohnKSa]

You can vote irresponsibly but that doesn't mean you thereafter lose your right to vote.

I find it quite alarming that anyone believes this.

No, you don't automatically lose your right to vote if you vote irresponsibly, but it certainly can happen. It has happened in the past and the results have NOT been pleasant. Hitler was originally voted into office.

Being foolish or irresponsible can certainly result in having one's rights curtailed, and the resulting rights infringement is NOT automatically restricted to the person who was foolish or irresponsible.

I don't know that I would so far as to say that this woman's actions qualify as foolish or irresponsible, but my guess is that she hasn't done much to positively affect the public's opinion of open carry.

[zukiphile]

I find it quite alarming that anyone believes this.

No, you don't automatically lose your right to vote if you vote irresponsibly,...

Since you concur in the point made, you should not find it alarming.

The existence of a legal right is not contigent upon its responsible exercise. If I've the right to spend my own money, I need not spend it wisely. If I've the right to make decisions about a business I own, I need not make responsible decisions. Either right may be abridged through confiscatory taxation or regulation, but as you imply, this is not an individualised judgment about past actions.

If a "right" is only what people would like us to do, then it isn't what we normally speak of as a right. If we conclude that this woman has a right to carry that is contigent on her only exercising it in manner pleasing to the sheriff and people she meets, she hasn't a right in the ordinary sense.

It has happened in the past and the results have NOT been pleasant. Hitler was originally voted into office.

Exactly. Hitler isn't the result of jews having failed to exercise their right to live more responsibly.

That foolish politics can lead to a restriction of rights is a fair and obvious point. That the limits of an individual right lie only within responsible exercise would be a very different sort of assertion.

[Shorts]

Since many here say OC at a kid's soccer game was irresponsible, where are the responsible locations to OC?

[Socrates]

We are so far down the slippery slope on this one, that we can't see the top. We have constantly given concession to antis, with the result they always want more.

I ref a LOT of kids sporting events. A mom with a gun is going to possibly be a target of comments if for no other reason then half of the parents there are going to have their kid on the loosing side, and, they want to look for any excuse why their kid is loosing, other then he sucks, or his team sucks. It's always my fault the kids can't shoot, foul, and aren't properly coached(that is my fault, because I refuse to coach, and, I'm REAL good at it). In the heat of the moment, stuff is going to get said.

REgardless, that was NOT the problem here. The problem is an elected official, using this soccer mom as a football for his own political agenda, to prevoke the legislature with his illegal actions. THAT IS THE ISSUE, NOT THE SOCCER MOM...