Injuries at Lakeland, FL gun range

[stevieboy]

Excuse me for being skeptical, really skeptical, about this tale. Non-shooters might find it to be credible but aw, c'mon folks, we're all experienced and we know that the chances of this story being true are about nil. Guns generally don't fire themselves once (although a hangfire isn't out of the question), but they almost never fire themselves three times. I'm with the poster who suggests an AD caused by hanging on to the trigger while putting the gun down followed by discharging two more rounds in the ensuing panic. I strongly suspect that there is much more to this story than was reported.

[N.H. Yankee]

You would think a gun like a Jennings would exhibit limp wrist syndrome and jam., also the ejection port must have been facing away from the bench unless it ejected the empties straight up. When I was a range officer, ALL guns had to have the slide locked back, and magazine removed when set down on the bench.

This is why I am glad to have my own private range behind my house. Sadly it doesn't take many of these instances to get a range closed and give a black eye to public shooting ranges. I can just see this as a future question in Obama care, private health care and life insurance. Do you own a gun, or do you shoot at a public range. I hope everyone recovers and many learned a lesson.

[MLeake]

Although it was idiotic actions that made this happen, I do hope that everyone involved will be o.k.

Generous of you, considering the wife wasn't handling the gun, and the guy in the next stall had nothing to do with how the weapon was handled.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but your comment read very badly. You may have meant it in a nice way, but if so, your meaning didn't come across. It seemed to imply that it's ok not to wish well on those who injure themselves through stupidity. A lot of folks here will refer to natural selection or Darwin awards, but I think most of us will still hope for the full recovery of the inept, not to mention their victims.

A thought on semi-auto weapons going full-auto:

It happened to my group, last week.

I was at a range qual for defense contractors last week, at a public range near Fort Benning, when a semi-auto AR went full auto. Shooter was having a hard time getting a good zero, so the instructor and I tried it out. Trigger seemed rough, compared to those on the two other ARs in use. I was able to achieve a zero-qualifying group, but wasn't happy with the way the trigger broke. The instructor (prior Ranger) tried it, and it fired a two-shot burst. He loaded another three round magazine, to make sure he hadn't flinched or pulled a short reset. First shot fired normally. Second trigger pull produced another two-shot burst.

We turned the weapon in to the gunsmith, to check the sear and disconnect. Suspect the issue causing full auto mode will be related to the crappy trigger pull.

Again, this was a semi-auto, short barreled AR with collapsible stock, not a selective fire M4. It could only go full auto through a malfunction.

If a fairly high grade, high dollar carbine can inadvertently go full auto, I have no trouble believing a low grade, pot metal 9mm pistol could do so. How it started firing in the first place is another question, although a slam-fire or a stuck firing pin plus impact could explain it.

Then again, so could a finger inside the trigger guard, followed by panic.

And the guy should not have put a loaded weapon down on the bench, especially with the muzzle not downrange.

[flcjinflorida]

I wasn't trying to sound like a jerk. I really do hope that the people are alright. I was merely implying that some people believe that the ones who act idiotic believe that they got what they deserved.

I really do believe that this actually happened, but I don't think it was an accident, unless the gun went full-auto because it malfunctioned. I think that even if it did malfunction, the fact that these people have poor gun-handling skills probably contributed to the situation.

[Lashlarue]

I have a Jennings J-22,getting it to fire at all is miracle! I also have a Hi-point 995 carbine that has never hiccuped and will shoot 3 shot groups from 50 yds covered by a quarter, all day long.Thats it on the right, incognito in its ATI stock and built in laser.

[sharpshot71]

I agree the accidental firing and going full auto is hard to belive, but there have been a few claims of people who said the Jennings 9mm malfuctions and goes full auto sometimes, fire on being dropped, and all around dangerous.

It may have been a one in a million occurance, but it is possible, especially with the reputation of the gun.

[omkhan]

Physics as I know, seems not to be applied in this case (if it actually happened as reported) since I assume that the recoil from the first round should have thrown the pistol back and shouldn't have cycle the slide? Murphy in action?

[zombieslayer]

I think there has to be more to it. we keep having people do stupid things in gunshops and shooting ranges more and more each day. At one of my local ranges, we've had like 3 people rent guns and blow their brains out in a year. A lady rented a .40 and then shot her 21 year old son, then turned the gun on herself.

[kayakersteve]

From prveious post:

He got rid of it some way or another. I never asked and he is no longer with us so it's sort of a moot point.

.

Is it a moot point? Did he sell it to someone else??
Perhaps they were from Lakeland Florida?? I hope not. I could not sell a defective gun to anyone. I am not insinuating he did this; just speculation on my part.

[Skans]

Well, for all those people who claim that Jennings guns "jam" and won't fire, this sure proves y'all wrong!

This story is missing something. Missing a lot of things. That Jennings sure seems to be a darn good aim all on its own landing at least 3 shots in people. Let me see if I understand this. Guy loads a magazine and puts it into the Jennings. Racks the slide (can't fire without racking the slide). And, then just puts the gun down on the table????? Pointing down range????? Am I the only one who finds this scenario really odd?

No one loads a gun, racks the slide and puts it down on the table right before they go to change targets. And, if the gun went off while they were changing targets, whats the odds of this many hits out of a magazine that probably holds 6 or 7 rounds?

[MLeake]

Guy loads a magazine, has slide back, puts gun on shelf; places gun in such a way that slide stop releases (not familiar with Jennings, does it have a side mounted slide stop? assume so...) slide goes into battery and weapon slam-fires.

At this point, two things could happen: one - guy had finger inside trigger guard for some reason when he put pistol down, and he panics when weapon fires, flinch firing two more rounds; or, two - weapon has firing pin issue (related to slam-fire, stuck firing pin?) and fires off two more rounds in auto mode before jamming due to lack of resistance against frame.

I could see a stuck firing pin as culprit more easily than imagining somebody would flinch off two additional shots... Especially since the pistol owner (Thourot) was shot in the hand - one would think that would be hard to do if he'd been holding the pistol when it fired.

It will be interesting to see what the lab technicians determine about the pistol.

The article didn't say, but I wonder if the Irish gentleman was in the lane on the far side of the pistol owner's wife. That would make it easier for the rounds to hit the wife and the Irishman, no need for the pistol to spin to hit both of them.

[ATW525]

Especially since the pistol owner (Thourot) was shot in the hand - one would think that would be hard to do if he'd been holding the pistol when it fired.

He was shot in the left hand... assuming he's right handed, it's pretty easy to do and not an uncommon way for people to injure themselves with a negligent discharge.

Actually I can almost see how it would play out in my head... the gun malfunctions and like many people ignorant in firearm safety, he holds it sideways to look at it, his right hand still on the grip and left cupped over the muzzle. His wife leans in on his left side to see what's going on and suddenly the gun fires (either due to a mechanical defect or his actions) and goes full auto in the process.

[MLeake]

... your theory still requires the weapon to go full-auto.

Since one possible cause of this would be the stuck firing pin, a slam-fire is at least as credible as an initial trigger pull followed by a full auto mode.

If I remember correctly, a disconnector failure would require the trigger to be held back - possible if the guy panicked after the first shot. A sear failure could have caused it to fire without trigger actuation. A stuck firing pin would initiate the sequence as soon as the slide went home, no trigger group involvement required.

We'll see what the techs say, but all things considered I think a stuck firing pin is the least complex of all possible causes.

[19eleven]

The story says he reloaded it and set it down for his wife to pickup and start shooting. But it seems that it was in an unsafe position. Id say no matter if it was the guns fault or not, the user is 95% at fault. The reason we have safe handling practices is in case of accidents like this.

[MLeake]

... I don't think anybody would argue differently.

However, whether he actually caused the weapon to fire is a separate issue.

Odds are this will have been a mix of poor handling plus a malfunction. Odds are smaller that it will only have been poor handling, although poor handling definitely occurred.

[markj]

Them Jennings and the Bryco Jennings 9mm have killed a lot of folks in accidental dischages. Look it up.

The problem is the firing pin I think, they loosen up and roll back and forth causing hits on the primers. Seen this in a shotgun too, load it up, slam the reciever and boom it goes, remingtom model 11 will do it. JMHO

[JohnKSa]

The part about the firearm accidentally discharging--even going full-auto is not that hard to believe.

The part that I find implausible is where it spins on the table while firing full-auto. Autopistols tend to be very unreliable if they don't have the resistance of the shooter's hand to hold the frame in place while the slide cycles. I could see it firing once and jamming but not continuing to fire.

I'm not saying the story couldn't happen as told but I am saying I will assume otherwise until someone presents some hard evidence to support the story.

[Sgt127]

That may be the first time in history that one of those POS's actually fired three rounds in a row...

I can see it happening. Loaded it, chambered a round. Sear sheared off and the gun kept firing until it ran out of ammo or jammed. Why did the sear hook break? Who knows. It could have just rounded itself off a little and suddenly slipped off...once it went bang, it kept going bang. For the caliber, its not a little or light gun, I can see it having enough mass to let it get off a few rounds. Thier description of it spinning makes sense.

I had a little Bauer .25 (clone of the Baby Browning) I carried it for years cocked and locked. Then I read somehere that the only thing keeping that gun from firing is a tiny little hook on the firing pin, after much thought, and looking at the relationship of all the parts, I can't believe I carried that thing cocked and locked.

[SP101]

I read in another article published yesterday that their son brought the gun back home to them as a gift when he returned from overseas military service.