READ BEFORE POSTING! World Trade Center Terror Attack? - Page 12

oberkommando · September 11, 2001, 07:34 PM

It takes it down by melting the supporting structure and he weight above does the rest.

C.R.Sam · September 11, 2001, 07:54 PM

Structural steel isn't very structural when subjected to fire. That is why steel skeleton buildings that are to be occupied have non structural fire resistant covers over all the important beams. Used to use asbestos blanketing; now plaster, drywall etc are used. Big single story buildings leave the beams exposed. Less stress from above and easy to evacuate.

Not hard to imagine the impact stripping the insulation from a lot of key steel beams. Then it doesn't take long for a fire of that magnitude to weaken the house of cards to the point where it collapses.

Even without an explosion or heavy impact, fire is a very real danger on high rise buildings.

The MGM Grand building didn't have an explosion, yet the fire damage was such that the building wasn't considered salvagable.

These buildings suffered from both heavy explosive force and massive fires.

No need for cutters.

Sam

Jody Hudson · September 11, 2001, 08:23 PM

Well, I know about 40 pages of technical details MORE than I did before about skyscraper construction and about that of the WTC in particular.

Also, I suspect that the fuel in those few floors and what went down the elevator shafts and stairs did, after an hour get the temperature up high enough to dramatically weaken those several floors almost at once.

The design being all perimeter support then may have had as many as 10 floors weakened almost simultaneously and those fell on the ones below. I can visualize it much differently now. In the areas where the previous bombing was, there were lots of pilars supporting the floors all through the middle areas. In the upper floors there were none.

I sincerly apologize for my heated antagonism about this situation and appreciate everyone staying civil toward me!

I hope that one of our proposed responses is to build back an even larger, stronger, more advanced building; one which can be an exercise in the best that international cooperation can achieve and that the building serve as a monument to our planetary cooperation. Perhaps it could be a monument to something good that all nations could support with important corporate, government and social head quarters from around the world. Perhaps it could be an international monument of understanding; greater in size and usefullness than any before it. And hopefully it can be dedicated to edify the Universal God whomever and whatever that may be for each of us. Not a sermon; just a thought.

lonegunman · September 11, 2001, 08:44 PM

Any body considered that the hijackers may have had biological weapons on board ???

A little bit of Anthrax goes a long way... but I guess we wont find out for a week or so.

TheBluesMan · September 11, 2001, 09:02 PM

I'm no expert on biological weapons, but someone who is told me the following:

There is no way that Anthrax (a virus) could have survived the heat of the fire.

**Rich Lucibella** · September 11, 2001, 09:04 PM

My point also Dave.....
Biologicals (that can survive airborn [very few] or waterborn) are much more effectively disseminated in the water supply.....not in an inferno.
Rich

labgrade · September 11, 2001, 09:27 PM

Not to be a "strange one" or anything, but, if I were to do such a deed, I'd have already planted the biologicals (incubation time + Xdays) to spread & infect just prior to & only using this latest as a diversion to the "real threat."

May be that "the bugs" should have already kicked in & the timing was merely off by a day or so .....

This is truly worse than any Clancy-read.

Pray that "this" is only what we have yet to see .....

OF · September 11, 2001, 09:47 PM

We are through the looking-glass.

- Gabe

OF · September 11, 2001, 09:57 PM

Reports now that NYPD (?) has just arrested 2 men in a truck full of explosives near the GWB. Enough explosives to bring down the bridge.

- Gabe

**Rich Lucibella** · September 11, 2001, 10:04 PM

Gabe-
SOURCE PLEASE.
Rich

OF · September 11, 2001, 10:30 PM

Just heard it on CBS news, channel 11 outside Seattle. Dan Rather reported it, about a half-hour ago. Haven't heard anything since.

whitebear · September 11, 2001, 10:30 PM

A high-ranking NYPD official just said, during Juliani's press conference, that three men in a van were arrested on the Jersey side of the George Washington bridge, and are being questioned by the FBI - NO explosives were found in the van.

**Rich Lucibella** · September 11, 2001, 10:32 PM

Rather, huh?
Wrong again, Dan.
Rich

OF · September 11, 2001, 10:33 PM

~300 NYC Firefighters are currently missing.

[press conference: Comissioner Thomas von Essen (sp?)]

OF · September 11, 2001, 10:37 PM

Why I quoted Dan Rather, I have no idea...

- Gabe

whitebear · September 11, 2001, 10:43 PM

Don't worry about it, Gabe. It's been a long day, and we all suffer lapses in judgement occasionally.

OF · September 11, 2001, 10:46 PM

Thanks whitebear!

In other good news, the local Q13 TV station out here in Seattle is reporting that 2 people have called out to relatives in Seattle on their cell phones from the basement of the WTC!. They say that they are not the only people trapped under there.

(This was on AP and the local station here, not reported by Mr. Rather, so it very may well be true)

- Gabe

oktagon · September 11, 2001, 11:05 PM

TheBluesMan,

You were almost right in stating that BW could survive the explosion and subsequent fire. Anthrax, which is not a virus actually, but a sporoforming bacteria will withstand significant heat and shock in its spore state (the only way anthrax can be used as airborn BW). The heat generated by the explosion ad fire is MUCH above the temperature at which any protein or nucleic acid canm remain intact. so, unless the bug was packed in containers that were suppose to be ejected at the very monent of impact (unlikely), the chances are nul. There are much easier ways of delivering BW to the target then by running an airliner into building.

Glock_Racer · September 11, 2001, 11:13 PM

A horrible tragedy. I pray for the victims. Nevertheless, the aggressors will pay...

J. Parker · September 11, 2001, 11:31 PM

Frankly, I'm to tired to read all the posts but recently pilots have been complaining that their cabin doors are to flimsy. That they should be made of metal instead of whatever there're made of. Cabin access is just to easy. Sad, but true.
I told my kids to pray before bed. I'm tired, going to bed.
Sincerely, J. Parker

Chris Pinkleton · September 12, 2001, 12:23 AM

Wish I could've got on as this was happening -- had to leave to the phone free for calls.

I think the dialogue here was probably more reasoned and balanced than all the crud on the tube--if I see one more "America Under Seige" montage/graphic I'm going to be sick. I've never seen anything so crass in my life -- the horror's not even over and the media can't wait to turn the whole thing in to a video game. I eventually switched over to The Learning Channel which had a feed from BBC America, which at least covered this hideous day with a bit of dignity.

I now know how my Grandparents felt in Decenber 1941. It's a lesson I hope my generation never has to face again.

Just venting -- sorry guys&gals but everyone else in the house is finally asleep and I didn't know what else to do . . .and never before have I been so tempted to break my own personal injunction about not posting any language I would be afraid to have my grandmother see. Luckily I did my loud swearing alone in the house this morning.

Fondest wishes to all with NYC relatives,
ChrisP.

Time for a stiff drink and (hopefully) bed. If I can get the screams out of my head.

Seeker · September 12, 2001, 01:25 AM

If I were the Bad Guys, whoever they maybe, I'd make more airplanes crash when they start flying again. I'd have many sleepers in place ready to go.

HankB · September 12, 2001, 07:43 AM

Gas data point for Austin, TX: Regular $1.339, up from $1.319 yesterday.

On the Jeff Ward radio program (KLBJ 590AM, Austin)yesterday afternoon around 4:30 CDT there was an interview with Admiral Robert Inman, USN (Ret.) This guy - now a professor at UT - is a former CIA director, so hopefully he's not as ignorant as the usual talking heads.

Heavily paraphrased (I was in traffic, so I couldn't pay full attention to the radio) here's what I remember: He said there are four possible origins of the attack 1.Osama Bin Ladin 2.The various Palestinian organizations 3.Iraq 4.Iran. Said that #1 with help from #3 and/or #4 is most likely. Inman also complained that the CIA has a hard time recruiting the best and the brightest since their recruiters were kicked off of so many Ivy League universities. Also said the CIA is hamstrung, since they're not allowed to spy domestically, even on foreign nationals once they hit our shores. Claimed rules prohibited them from working with "bad" people overseas. Implied that the FBI should've done better. He also mentioned that our inability to monitor Osama Bin Ladin can be traced to press releases from the previous administration that revealed we were tracking him via cell phone traffic, which caused him to alter his routine. (Now here's where things become a bit worrisome.) Inman stated that the terrorists must have coordinated their actions with cell phones, and it's the inability of our FBI and CIA to monitor cell traffic that's to blame for this tragedy. He repeatedly stated that we as Americans have to become a more disciplined society and be willing to give up some of our privacy so that our intellegence agencies can find terrorists here. Hmmm...

Dead · September 12, 2001, 07:44 AM

THings are getting back to normal around here, except there are no planes in the skies, other than a few military jets.. That actually makes it rather peaceful when I think about it. (I am right by any airport)

Cell phones to blame for this???? WHAT? That is crazy! Only those who took part in these acts are to blame, not the tools they used.

maxinquaye · September 12, 2001, 10:15 AM

As found on MSNBC...

"Meanwhile, sometime around 10 a.m., United Flight 93, headed to San Francisco from Newark, N.J., crashed into a field about 80 miles from Pittsburgh.
An emergency dispatcher in Westmoreland County, Pa., received a cell phone call at 9:58 a.m. from a man who said he was a passenger locked in the airplane’s bathroom, said dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer.
"We are being hijacked. We are being hijacked!" Cramer quoted the man as saying. "He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, and we lost contact with him."
Officials originally presumed the hijackers were trying to crash the jet into Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland. But Attorney General John Ashcroft later told members of Congress that the plane was believed to have been turning toward Washington.
The Miami Herald reported Wednesday that a passenger on Flight 93, Tom Burnett, called his wife and indicated that he and other passengers were about to try to overpower the hijackers.
Burnett told his wife that somebody on the plane had been stabbed, said the Rev. Frank Colacicco, of St. Isidore’s Church in Danville, Fla. "We’re all gonna die, but three of us are going to do something," Burnett told his wife, according to Colacicco. He added: "I love you, honey," before the call ended. "

How many lives did Burnett and others save by sacrificing their own? These people should be recognized!

September 11, 2001, 08:23 PM	#278
Jody Hudson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware Posts: 1,140	Well, I know about 40 pages of technical details MORE than I did before about skyscraper construction and about that of the WTC in particular. Also, I suspect that the fuel in those few floors and what went down the elevator shafts and stairs did, after an hour get the temperature up high enough to dramatically weaken those several floors almost at once. The design being all perimeter support then may have had as many as 10 floors weakened almost simultaneously and those fell on the ones below. I can visualize it much differently now. In the areas where the previous bombing was, there were lots of pilars supporting the floors all through the middle areas. In the upper floors there were none. I sincerly apologize for my heated antagonism about this situation and appreciate everyone staying civil toward me! I hope that one of our proposed responses is to build back an even larger, stronger, more advanced building; one which can be an exercise in the best that international cooperation can achieve and that the building serve as a monument to our planetary cooperation. Perhaps it could be a monument to something good that all nations could support with important corporate, government and social head quarters from around the world. Perhaps it could be an international monument of understanding; greater in size and usefullness than any before it. And hopefully it can be dedicated to edify the Universal God whomever and whatever that may be for each of us. Not a sermon; just a thought. __________________ We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware. Our Site: www.Kate-Jody.com

September 11, 2001, 09:02 PM	#280
TheBluesMan Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 15, 1999 Location: Ohio Posts: 7,558	I'm no expert on biological weapons, but someone who is told me the following: There is no way that Anthrax (a virus) could have survived the heat of the fire. __________________ -Dave Miller ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ! NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Personal Protection. Tick-off Obama - Join the NRA Today - Save $10

September 11, 2001, 09:04 PM	#281
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	My point also Dave..... Biologicals (that can survive airborn [very few] or waterborn) are much more effectively disseminated in the water supply.....not in an inferno. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

September 11, 2001, 10:04 PM	#285
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Gabe- SOURCE PLEASE. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

September 11, 2001, 10:30 PM	#287
whitebear Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 1999 Location: Tulsa, America Posts: 159	A high-ranking NYPD official just said, during Juliani's press conference, that three men in a van were arrested on the Jersey side of the George Washington bridge, and are being questioned by the FBI - NO explosives were found in the van. __________________ Tony TFL Member since 8/4/1999 Member #1931 "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."

September 11, 2001, 07:34 PM	#276
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	It takes it down by melting the supporting structure and he weight above does the rest.

September 11, 2001, 07:54 PM	#277
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Structural steel isn't very structural when subjected to fire. That is why steel skeleton buildings that are to be occupied have non structural fire resistant covers over all the important beams. Used to use asbestos blanketing; now plaster, drywall etc are used. Big single story buildings leave the beams exposed. Less stress from above and easy to evacuate. Not hard to imagine the impact stripping the insulation from a lot of key steel beams. Then it doesn't take long for a fire of that magnitude to weaken the house of cards to the point where it collapses. Even without an explosion or heavy impact, fire is a very real danger on high rise buildings. The MGM Grand building didn't have an explosion, yet the fire damage was such that the building wasn't considered salvagable. These buildings suffered from both heavy explosive force and massive fires. No need for cutters. Sam

September 11, 2001, 08:44 PM	#279
lonegunman Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2001 Location: deep in georgia Posts: 1,724	Any body considered that the hijackers may have had biological weapons on board ??? A little bit of Anthrax goes a long way... but I guess we wont find out for a week or so.

September 11, 2001, 09:27 PM	#282
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Not to be a "strange one" or anything, but, if I were to do such a deed, I'd have already planted the biologicals (incubation time + Xdays) to spread & infect just prior to & only using this latest as a diversion to the "real threat." May be that "the bugs" should have already kicked in & the timing was merely off by a day or so ..... This is truly worse than any Clancy-read. Pray that "this" is only what we have yet to see .....

September 11, 2001, 09:47 PM	#283
OF Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2000 Posts: 2,239	We are through the looking-glass. - Gabe

September 11, 2001, 09:57 PM	#284
OF Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2000 Posts: 2,239	Reports now that NYPD (?) has just arrested 2 men in a truck full of explosives near the GWB. Enough explosives to bring down the bridge. - Gabe

September 11, 2001, 10:30 PM	#286
OF Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2000 Posts: 2,239	Just heard it on CBS news, channel 11 outside Seattle. Dan Rather reported it, about a half-hour ago. Haven't heard anything since.

September 11, 2001, 10:32 PM	#288
Rich Lucibella Staff Join Date: October 6, 1998 Location: South Florida Posts: 10,229	Rather, huh? Wrong again, Dan. Rich __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

September 11, 2001, 10:33 PM	#289
OF Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2000 Posts: 2,239	~300 NYC Firefighters are currently missing. [press conference: Comissioner Thomas von Essen (sp?)]

September 11, 2001, 10:37 PM	#290
OF Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2000 Posts: 2,239	Why I quoted Dan Rather, I have no idea... - Gabe

September 11, 2001, 10:43 PM	#291
whitebear Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 1999 Location: Tulsa, America Posts: 159	Don't worry about it, Gabe. It's been a long day, and we all suffer lapses in judgement occasionally. __________________ Tony TFL Member since 8/4/1999 Member #1931 "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."

September 11, 2001, 10:46 PM	#292
OF Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2000 Posts: 2,239	Thanks whitebear! In other good news, the local Q13 TV station out here in Seattle is reporting that 2 people have called out to relatives in Seattle on their cell phones from the basement of the WTC!. They say that they are not the only people trapped under there. (This was on AP and the local station here, not reported by Mr. Rather, so it very may well be true) - Gabe

September 11, 2001, 11:05 PM	#293
oktagon Junior member Join Date: April 1, 2000 Posts: 357	TheBluesMan, You were almost right in stating that BW could survive the explosion and subsequent fire. Anthrax, which is not a virus actually, but a sporoforming bacteria will withstand significant heat and shock in its spore state (the only way anthrax can be used as airborn BW). The heat generated by the explosion ad fire is MUCH above the temperature at which any protein or nucleic acid canm remain intact. so, unless the bug was packed in containers that were suppose to be ejected at the very monent of impact (unlikely), the chances are nul. There are much easier ways of delivering BW to the target then by running an airliner into building.

September 11, 2001, 11:13 PM	#294
Glock_Racer Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2000 Location: PRK Posts: 299	A horrible tragedy. I pray for the victims. Nevertheless, the aggressors will pay... __________________ U can't touch this

September 11, 2001, 11:31 PM	#295
J. Parker Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2000 Location: Ephrata, wa. USA Posts: 1,338	Frankly, I'm to tired to read all the posts but recently pilots have been complaining that their cabin doors are to flimsy. That they should be made of metal instead of whatever there're made of. Cabin access is just to easy. Sad, but true. I told my kids to pray before bed. I'm tired, going to bed. Sincerely, J. Parker

September 12, 2001, 12:23 AM	#296
Chris Pinkleton Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 123	Wish I could've got on as this was happening -- had to leave to the phone free for calls. I think the dialogue here was probably more reasoned and balanced than all the crud on the tube--if I see one more "America Under Seige" montage/graphic I'm going to be sick. I've never seen anything so crass in my life -- the horror's not even over and the media can't wait to turn the whole thing in to a video game. I eventually switched over to The Learning Channel which had a feed from BBC America, which at least covered this hideous day with a bit of dignity. I now know how my Grandparents felt in Decenber 1941. It's a lesson I hope my generation never has to face again. Just venting -- sorry guys&gals but everyone else in the house is finally asleep and I didn't know what else to do . . .and never before have I been so tempted to break my own personal injunction about not posting any language I would be afraid to have my grandmother see. Luckily I did my loud swearing alone in the house this morning. Fondest wishes to all with NYC relatives, ChrisP. Time for a stiff drink and (hopefully) bed. If I can get the screams out of my head. __________________ "FINE WEAPONS/THE RIGHT TO BUY WEAPONS IS THE RIGHT/ TO BE FREE" --A.E. van Vogt, "The Weapons Shop," 1942. "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

September 12, 2001, 01:25 AM	#297
Seeker Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: Lacomb, Oregon Posts: 1,393	If I were the Bad Guys, whoever they maybe, I'd make more airplanes crash when they start flying again. I'd have many sleepers in place ready to go. __________________ Molon Labe Seeker "The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson Don't Tread On Me! "Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -Thich Nhat Hanh

September 12, 2001, 07:43 AM	#298
HankB Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2000 Location: Central Texas, outside of Austin Posts: 1,698	Gas data point for Austin, TX: Regular $1.339, up from $1.319 yesterday. On the Jeff Ward radio program (KLBJ 590AM, Austin)yesterday afternoon around 4:30 CDT there was an interview with Admiral Robert Inman, USN (Ret.) This guy - now a professor at UT - is a former CIA director, so hopefully he's not as ignorant as the usual talking heads. Heavily paraphrased (I was in traffic, so I couldn't pay full attention to the radio) here's what I remember: He said there are four possible origins of the attack 1.Osama Bin Ladin 2.The various Palestinian organizations 3.Iraq 4.Iran. Said that #1 with help from #3 and/or #4 is most likely. Inman also complained that the CIA has a hard time recruiting the best and the brightest since their recruiters were kicked off of so many Ivy League universities. Also said the CIA is hamstrung, since they're not allowed to spy domestically, even on foreign nationals once they hit our shores. Claimed rules prohibited them from working with "bad" people overseas. Implied that the FBI should've done better. He also mentioned that our inability to monitor Osama Bin Ladin can be traced to press releases from the previous administration that revealed we were tracking him via cell phone traffic, which caused him to alter his routine. (Now here's where things become a bit worrisome.) Inman stated that the terrorists must have coordinated their actions with cell phones, and it's the inability of our FBI and CIA to monitor cell traffic that's to blame for this tragedy. He repeatedly stated that we as Americans have to become a more disciplined society and be willing to give up some of our privacy so that our intellegence agencies can find terrorists here. Hmmm... __________________ To be kind to your enemy is to be cruel to yourself - Sun Tzu

September 12, 2001, 07:44 AM	#299
Dead Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: AoW Land, USA Posts: 1,968	THings are getting back to normal around here, except there are no planes in the skies, other than a few military jets.. That actually makes it rather peaceful when I think about it. (I am right by any airport) Cell phones to blame for this???? WHAT? That is crazy! Only those who took part in these acts are to blame, not the tools they used. __________________ Dead [Black Ops] www.therallypoint.org

September 12, 2001, 10:15 AM	#300
maxinquaye Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2000 Posts: 546	Heros who deserve MUCH more then a snippet... As found on MSNBC... "Meanwhile, sometime around 10 a.m., United Flight 93, headed to San Francisco from Newark, N.J., crashed into a field about 80 miles from Pittsburgh. An emergency dispatcher in Westmoreland County, Pa., received a cell phone call at 9:58 a.m. from a man who said he was a passenger locked in the airplane’s bathroom, said dispatch supervisor Glenn Cramer. "We are being hijacked. We are being hijacked!" Cramer quoted the man as saying. "He heard some sort of explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, and we lost contact with him." Officials originally presumed the hijackers were trying to crash the jet into Camp David, the presidential retreat in Maryland. But Attorney General John Ashcroft later told members of Congress that the plane was believed to have been turning toward Washington. The Miami Herald reported Wednesday that a passenger on Flight 93, Tom Burnett, called his wife and indicated that he and other passengers were about to try to overpower the hijackers. Burnett told his wife that somebody on the plane had been stabbed, said the Rev. Frank Colacicco, of St. Isidore’s Church in Danville, Fla. "We’re all gonna die, but three of us are going to do something," Burnett told his wife, according to Colacicco. He added: "I love you, honey," before the call ended. " How many lives did Burnett and others save by sacrificing their own? These people should be recognized!