Carla Scenario Question...

MountainGun44 · April 27, 2000, 03:07 PM

You are being held at gunpoint. Do you have the "element of surprise" working in your favor as you produce your pistol and fire?

I have been involved in many experiments where reaction time was measured. An average person can raise a gun and fire before you can react and fire even if you "have the drop" on him.

Do you pull and fire? Does the thug react by firing or turning away in pain/fear/surprise?

It is interesting how many of us would never carry a .32 into a situation like this if we knew it was going to happen. What does that tell you? I'll stick with my Glock 19 and 15 rounds of 9mm.

Oleg Volk · April 27, 2000, 04:05 PM

Sad part is that people carrying REAL-GUNS(tm) run a higher chance of being made long before encountering trouble of criminal kind. That means some folks have to carry a 22/25/32/380 mousegun or none at all. I, for one, think this is a good scenario to play as it almost completely precludes one-shot instant incapacitation of the opponent and thus requires creative thinking.

Andrewh · April 27, 2000, 04:52 PM

I am afraid I didn't really like it because the bad guys "popped up out of no where." I believe they are out to get you, so live paranoid. So you either watch all the time just out of instinct, or you don't. So I really don't think a BG will be able to surprize me up close and personal like that. Maybe I am naive. I have been all over the world, in some very bad parts of the world and not been surprised like that before. I always had the opportunity to walk away, or get help. Come back for the car later. Get a cab etc...

Art Eatman · April 27, 2000, 05:07 PM

The average reaction time for homo sapiens is 0.2 seconds. Reaction time is the time lag from when you see something to when you tell a muscle to "Do something!" Then, add a bit of time-lag to the time it takes the signal to travel from the brain to the muscle.

(This reaction time is why in a string of cars on a highway, if number one slams on his brakes, number eight hits number seven. Physically impossible to stop in time. Leaving out avoidance, natch...)

If a bad guy has the drop and is within about six feet of you, it is quicker to attack his gun than to try to draw and shoot. If he is cued to shoot only upon your motion, he can't hit you if your techniques are proper.

If you have a gun in your hand, and make the first decision to act, you win.

Way back, Chip McCormick and I were messing around at his range one day. We got to talking about Hollywood's "Let the bad guy draw first" BS. So, we assumed the IPSC "Surrender" pose, facing steel targets. The deal was that Chip couldn't go for his gun before he saw my hand move. Even though Chip is much faster than I am in the normal IPSC process of react to a signal and then draw and fire, I hit the steel plate first, every time. It's that 0.2-second lag. Even if Chip were 0.15, there's just not enough time to catch up. It only takes about 0.8 seconds to draw and fire.

FWIW, Art

Never let the other fella draw first, or make any first move.

Alex Johnson · April 27, 2000, 05:28 PM

I agree with Andrew, I wrote the story, but I don't like it too much either. Your not supposed to like the situation. I wrote it because I know that something like this could happen all too easily to a lot of us. Their was a lot of mistakes on the part of both the man and the women. Neither of them should have been out in that section of town at night. Also, because of the implied sexual tension, they probably weren't being too aware of anything aside from each other. It's easy to say that you are going to be always aware of your surroundings, but as in this situation; a pretty girl inviting a guy home for obvious entertainment, can throw some of the best intentions out the window. And their are other situations that can be equally bad, maybe your angry at your boss, or just had a fight with the wife, any of these things can lower your awareness level. Not mentioned is the possibility of alcohol that may have been consumed. I don't drink when I'm carrying, but I suspect that their are a few who do. As far as the two thugs popping up out of nowhere, while, people can hide behind cars and when it's dark it's easy to not see them. It pays to remember it's probably their neighborhood and they probably know it better than you do. A moment's inattention, such as talking to Carla, is all it takes for somebody to catch you by surprise. I've never been mugged, but I know that their have been a few times when I could easily have been and I consider myself pretty aware of my surroundings. Andrews right, we need to be more aware of are surroundings and the old sane that says an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure is really true here. That said I think these hypothetical situations force us to think about these things. Maybe the people who read these posts will be a bit more aware because of them the next time their walking out the door. Who knows, it might just save somebody's life.

April 27, 2000, 03:07 PM	#1
MountainGun44 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Posts: 343	You are being held at gunpoint. Do you have the "element of surprise" working in your favor as you produce your pistol and fire? I have been involved in many experiments where reaction time was measured. An average person can raise a gun and fire before you can react and fire even if you "have the drop" on him. Do you pull and fire? Does the thug react by firing or turning away in pain/fear/surprise? It is interesting how many of us would never carry a .32 into a situation like this if we knew it was going to happen. What does that tell you? I'll stick with my Glock 19 and 15 rounds of 9mm.

April 27, 2000, 04:05 PM	#2
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Sad part is that people carrying REAL-GUNS(tm) run a higher chance of being made long before encountering trouble of criminal kind. That means some folks have to carry a 22/25/32/380 mousegun or none at all. I, for one, think this is a good scenario to play as it almost completely precludes one-shot instant incapacitation of the opponent and thus requires creative thinking.

April 27, 2000, 04:52 PM	#3
Andrewh Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 1999 Posts: 966	I am afraid I didn't really like it because the bad guys "popped up out of no where." I believe they are out to get you, so live paranoid. So you either watch all the time just out of instinct, or you don't. So I really don't think a BG will be able to surprize me up close and personal like that. Maybe I am naive. I have been all over the world, in some very bad parts of the world and not been surprised like that before. I always had the opportunity to walk away, or get help. Come back for the car later. Get a cab etc...

April 27, 2000, 05:07 PM	#4
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	The average reaction time for homo sapiens is 0.2 seconds. Reaction time is the time lag from when you see something to when you tell a muscle to "Do something!" Then, add a bit of time-lag to the time it takes the signal to travel from the brain to the muscle. (This reaction time is why in a string of cars on a highway, if number one slams on his brakes, number eight hits number seven. Physically impossible to stop in time. Leaving out avoidance, natch...) If a bad guy has the drop and is within about six feet of you, it is quicker to attack his gun than to try to draw and shoot. If he is cued to shoot only upon your motion, he can't hit you if your techniques are proper. If you have a gun in your hand, and make the first decision to act, you win. Way back, Chip McCormick and I were messing around at his range one day. We got to talking about Hollywood's "Let the bad guy draw first" BS. So, we assumed the IPSC "Surrender" pose, facing steel targets. The deal was that Chip couldn't go for his gun before he saw my hand move. Even though Chip is much faster than I am in the normal IPSC process of react to a signal and then draw and fire, I hit the steel plate first, every time. It's that 0.2-second lag. Even if Chip were 0.15, there's just not enough time to catch up. It only takes about 0.8 seconds to draw and fire. FWIW, Art Never let the other fella draw first, or make any first move.

April 27, 2000, 05:28 PM	#5
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	I agree with Andrew, I wrote the story, but I don't like it too much either. Your not supposed to like the situation. I wrote it because I know that something like this could happen all too easily to a lot of us. Their was a lot of mistakes on the part of both the man and the women. Neither of them should have been out in that section of town at night. Also, because of the implied sexual tension, they probably weren't being too aware of anything aside from each other. It's easy to say that you are going to be always aware of your surroundings, but as in this situation; a pretty girl inviting a guy home for obvious entertainment, can throw some of the best intentions out the window. And their are other situations that can be equally bad, maybe your angry at your boss, or just had a fight with the wife, any of these things can lower your awareness level. Not mentioned is the possibility of alcohol that may have been consumed. I don't drink when I'm carrying, but I suspect that their are a few who do. As far as the two thugs popping up out of nowhere, while, people can hide behind cars and when it's dark it's easy to not see them. It pays to remember it's probably their neighborhood and they probably know it better than you do. A moment's inattention, such as talking to Carla, is all it takes for somebody to catch you by surprise. I've never been mugged, but I know that their have been a few times when I could easily have been and I consider myself pretty aware of my surroundings. Andrews right, we need to be more aware of are surroundings and the old sane that says an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure is really true here. That said I think these hypothetical situations force us to think about these things. Maybe the people who read these posts will be a bit more aware because of them the next time their walking out the door. Who knows, it might just save somebody's life.