One feature or concept required for CCW

Brian Williams · October 2, 2002, 12:41 PM

What one feature, concept, dimension etc. do you feel is required for a CCW?
Light weight
Capacity
Color
Sights
Ammo/Caliber
Wife/SO approval
Holster/Carry position

What would look for first when purchasing a Concealable Carry Weapon

Leatherneck · October 2, 2002, 12:42 PM

Reliability

TC

Sleuth · October 2, 2002, 12:52 PM

Reliability, then how it feels in your hand. As long as it is .38spl, 9mm or a larger caliber, the subtle feel is most important.

Confidence breeds Competence! Competence breeds Confidence!

Eric Larsen · October 2, 2002, 12:53 PM

DITTO!

Shoot well

Blackhawk · October 2, 2002, 12:58 PM

Size.

Too small is rare, but it exists.

Too big is common among CCWs.

It's got to be big enough to handle at least 5 or more .32 or bigger cartridges.

It's got to be small enough to "magically appear" in your hand without doing an "ants in your pants dance."

It's got to be big enough so you can consistently hit a 5" target at 7 yards within a second of drawing it.

Obviously, the giants among us can meet the requirements using bigger guns than the smaller ones among us.

Litmus test: Can you produce it from total concealment and hit a 5" target within one second of your decision to act?

And that goes for all the other characteristics of a CCW rig, such as: holster, clothing, etc.

Blackhawk · October 2, 2002, 01:01 PM

Reliability is NOT a feature, guys!

Sleuth · October 2, 2002, 01:10 PM

Blackhawk, I disagree. Reliability is very much THE critical feature in any defensive product. Nothing is worse than to have your life at risk, pull your blaster, and hear "...click...click...click"
There are some models and makes that have such bad reliability records that they should not be considered, even if that means not having a gun! Why, because carrying an unreliable gun lets you THINK you are armed!

Onslaught · October 2, 2002, 01:18 PM

Quote:

I disagree. Reliability is very much THE critical feature in any defensive product.

Reliability is a result, not a feature. A feature can (within reason, and depending on model) be chosen or not from one pistol to the next. I want a slim pistol... I want the Ultralight version, I want the SubCompact model... all physical features. Reliability is a function... more specifically correct functioning, which is the product of effort, QC, skill, technology, etc... but you can't buy the "Extra reliability" model of Heckler and GlockenSigsson.

cslinger · October 2, 2002, 01:27 PM

QC, skill, technology, etc... but you can't buy the "Extra reliability" model of Heckler and GlockenSigsson.

No, but you can buy a SIG, Glock Ruger, HK whatever over a Davis, Jennings etc.

Quality of manufacture leading to reliability is numbers 1, 2, 3. It has to go bang every time I pull the trigger.

Comfort and concealability is next.

Accuracy is 5th, although it has to be at least combat accuracte in my hands for me to own it.

Hemicuda · October 2, 2002, 01:43 PM

Again, RELIABILITY... because if it ain't reliable, then it's a poorly designed, and highly expensive paperweight!

Christopher II · October 2, 2002, 01:45 PM

Okay, if I'm not allowed to say reliability, I'll go with ease of use. Many CCW weapons are too small to manipulate easily, have poorly placed controls, crude sights, and poor trigger action. This will not be much of a help if/when you have to use your carry piece for its intended purpose.

A draw/hit from concealment in under one second is very, very good. In fact, it's probably a little bit rigorous for a typical shooter. Just as an example, a typical Master-level time for 2 As at 10 yards is around 1.5 seconds (surrender start, no cover.) If you can do two hits in 1.5 seconds on a 6" plate 7 yards distant, from concealment, you're probably on the right track (and you can probably spend some more time on movement, weak hand, and position drills...)

- Chris

JMax · October 2, 2002, 01:53 PM

Light weight.

JMax

Blackhawk · October 2, 2002, 02:51 PM

Bring me ANY of your "reliable" guns, and I can make them unreliable in just a few minutes. Just as quickly, I can make them reliable again.

Magic? No. It's just that reliability is the result of the conditions the machine operates under.

It is NOT a feature!

70-101 · October 2, 2002, 02:58 PM

Reliabilty

Hemicuda · October 2, 2002, 03:03 PM

Reliability IS a feature... look at Lorcins, Jennings', Bryco's... they all have "built in UNRELIABILITY" (I know, there ARE exceptions)

inversely, certain guns have a BUILT IN reliability... (Smitty wheelguns, as an example)

it most certainly seems to be a feature that is either present or not present in guns...

Edward429451 · October 2, 2002, 03:23 PM

OK OK, reliability is not a feature. But it is a concept.

So on that note I vote reliability! And from there we go to...

Size, I suppose. Slimness makes for a nice always carry. Weight has little to do with it for me. At least up to 40 ounces. I do like carrying full size pistols. They are easier to shoot well than their compact counterparts, and if the ballon goes up, what would you really like to have in your hand, a mousegun or a full size serious pistol? Ha! Thought so...

(Don't say a rifle, we're talking CCW for unannounced trouble.)

I suppose that would bring us to holsters. Any full size pistol can be carried comforting if you play around with holster arrangements until you find a setup that'll let you carry what you really want to. So what if you wind up with a drawer full of holsters? You'll have what you need if it goes bad for ya'...

If the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun, then wouldn't the second rule be 'bring enough gun'?

Blackhawk · October 2, 2002, 03:54 PM

Hemicuda,

Semantic antics.

Three USP .45s came down the production line one after the other. One goes through thousands of rounds without a hiccup. The other breaks its slide stop after 50 rounds. The third broke its firing pin within 300 rounds. They sure looked equal, but one was "reliable" and two weren't. And you're saying it's a feature? I want my TBA USP to be one that's reliable, so how do I special order that feature...?

Reliability can be improved in ANY gun by good care and maintenance just as it can be trashed by abuse.

Sleuth · October 2, 2002, 04:40 PM

Yes, but can you make an unreliable gun reliable ? To the point where you would trust your loved ones lives on it? I have seen guns from all manufacturers that had to be sent back, some more than once, to be reliable. Some have even had to be replaced. Perhaps you are the master gunsmith who can fix them all?

When I was employed by a large Federal agency, we selected our service gun by buying samples of the contenders, and taking them to the academy. Trainees were invited to shoot all they wanted, and we kept detailed records of the lowest MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure). Our new hires were frequently experienced State or Local cops. The end result was the selection of a handgun with the highest reliability.
In fact, I cracked the frame on one (after many, many thousands of rounds), and it still functioned 100% That, sir, is reliability

EOD Guy in VA · October 2, 2002, 05:14 PM

Next to reliability, without which I feel everything else is meaningless, I would say width. Width has the most impact on concealability and comfort. Weight isn’t that much of a factor for me if it carries comfortably and I’m confident I’m not printing.

Erik · October 2, 2002, 06:05 PM

Reliability, then width. Or, just width is reliabilty isn't deemed a feature.

Ala Dan · October 2, 2002, 06:13 PM

Greeting's All,

Good thread here Fess!

First and foremost, RELIABILITY! Size, and
capacity would certainly be secondary. The way
the weapon feels in the operator's hands would
also be something to consider. All said and done,
there aren't many quality weapons that I
would feel out of place with.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

**Mike Irwin** · October 2, 2002, 09:17 PM

Reliability is BOTH a feature and a concept.

Only I want ABSOLUTE reliability.

AR-10 · October 2, 2002, 09:49 PM

The first critical requirement that needs to be addressed is not a feature or physical distinction, it is a concept.

The determination to use the weapon if you have to.

Eric Larsen · October 2, 2002, 10:06 PM

Blackhawk...I see your point..seriously. What I and probably a few more people meant was ..some guns are inherently more reliable than others..whether a specific design or perfect machining tolerances or what have you.
Buy a quality piece for carry, have it checked out thoroughly by a good smith and tweak it a tad if you want. All of this assists in the reliability and my faith in the gun.
Noone can guarantee that any gun will work all of the time..not even my fav. snub.....but I still consider reliability the most important "aspect" of any carry gun, regardless of how its portrayed or presented. Just my .02 cents...
Shoot well

Blackhawk · October 2, 2002, 11:26 PM

Well said, Eric.

Reliability comes from a good design, good materials, and well made parts all assembled and fit together appropriately and then mated by the moving parts wearing in over time under the extreme operating conditions of the design. That's what every design engineer strives to achieve, but even so, undetectable flaws in parts will occur, and an example of one of the "very best" will fail.

With machines, thousands of previous successful cycles means nothing about the next one, but our faith that it too will be successful is stronger despite the fact that reliability of machines declines with use rather than improves.

That pesky old law of entropy will not be denied!

October 2, 2002, 12:41 PM	#1
Brian Williams Senior Member Join Date: September 4, 2001 Location: Lancaster, PA Posts: 1,288	One feature or concept required for CCW What one feature, concept, dimension etc. do you feel is required for a CCW? Light weight Capacity Color Sights Ammo/Caliber Wife/SO approval Holster/Carry position What would look for first when purchasing a Concealable Carry Weapon __________________ Brian <><

October 2, 2002, 12:52 PM	#3
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	Reliability, then how it feels in your hand. As long as it is .38spl, 9mm or a larger caliber, the subtle feel is most important. Confidence breeds Competence! Competence breeds Confidence! __________________ Sleuth

October 2, 2002, 12:53 PM	#4
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	DITTO! Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush

October 2, 2002, 01:10 PM	#7
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	Blackhawk, I disagree. Reliability is very much THE critical feature in any defensive product. Nothing is worse than to have your life at risk, pull your blaster, and hear "...click...click...click" There are some models and makes that have such bad reliability records that they should not be considered, even if that means not having a gun! Why, because carrying an unreliable gun lets you THINK you are armed! __________________ Sleuth

October 2, 2002, 01:27 PM	#9
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	Reliability QC, skill, technology, etc... but you can't buy the "Extra reliability" model of Heckler and GlockenSigsson. No, but you can buy a SIG, Glock Ruger, HK whatever over a Davis, Jennings etc. Quality of manufacture leading to reliability is numbers 1, 2, 3. It has to go bang every time I pull the trigger. Comfort and concealability is next. Accuracy is 5th, although it has to be at least combat accuracte in my hands for me to own it. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

October 2, 2002, 12:42 PM	#2
Leatherneck Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 292	Reliability TC

October 2, 2002, 12:58 PM	#5
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Size. Too small is rare, but it exists. Too big is common among CCWs. It's got to be big enough to handle at least 5 or more .32 or bigger cartridges. It's got to be small enough to "magically appear" in your hand without doing an "ants in your pants dance." It's got to be big enough so you can consistently hit a 5" target at 7 yards within a second of drawing it. Obviously, the giants among us can meet the requirements using bigger guns than the smaller ones among us. Litmus test: Can you produce it from total concealment and hit a 5" target within one second of your decision to act? And that goes for all the other characteristics of a CCW rig, such as: holster, clothing, etc.

October 2, 2002, 01:01 PM	#6
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Reliability is NOT a feature, guys!

October 2, 2002, 01:43 PM	#10
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Again, RELIABILITY... because if it ain't reliable, then it's a poorly designed, and highly expensive paperweight! __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

October 2, 2002, 01:45 PM	#11
Christopher II Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 1999 Location: Germantown, MD Posts: 2,349	Okay, if I'm not allowed to say reliability, I'll go with ease of use. Many CCW weapons are too small to manipulate easily, have poorly placed controls, crude sights, and poor trigger action. This will not be much of a help if/when you have to use your carry piece for its intended purpose. A draw/hit from concealment in under one second is very, very good. In fact, it's probably a little bit rigorous for a typical shooter. Just as an example, a typical Master-level time for 2 As at 10 yards is around 1.5 seconds (surrender start, no cover.) If you can do two hits in 1.5 seconds on a 6" plate 7 yards distant, from concealment, you're probably on the right track (and you can probably spend some more time on movement, weak hand, and position drills...) - Chris __________________ "There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." – Robert Heinlein "Contrary to popular belief, your vote does not matter, and you cannot make a difference." - Bob Murphy, "Picking Neither of Two Evils" My PGP Public Key

October 2, 2002, 01:53 PM	#12
JMax Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2002 Location: New Mexico Posts: 112	Light weight. JMax

October 2, 2002, 02:51 PM	#13
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Bring me ANY of your "reliable" guns, and I can make them unreliable in just a few minutes. Just as quickly, I can make them reliable again. Magic? No. It's just that reliability is the result of the conditions the machine operates under. It is NOT a feature!

October 2, 2002, 02:58 PM	#14
70-101 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2002 Location: virginia Posts: 706	Reliabilty

October 2, 2002, 03:03 PM	#15
Hemicuda Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,757	Reliability IS a feature... look at Lorcins, Jennings', Bryco's... they all have "built in UNRELIABILITY" (I know, there ARE exceptions) inversely, certain guns have a BUILT IN reliability... (Smitty wheelguns, as an example) it most certainly seems to be a feature that is either present or not present in guns... __________________ Hemi. gun and car collector. Rare cars, and rarer guns.

October 2, 2002, 03:23 PM	#16
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	OK OK, reliability is not a feature. But it is a concept. So on that note I vote reliability! And from there we go to... Size, I suppose. Slimness makes for a nice always carry. Weight has little to do with it for me. At least up to 40 ounces. I do like carrying full size pistols. They are easier to shoot well than their compact counterparts, and if the ballon goes up, what would you really like to have in your hand, a mousegun or a full size serious pistol? Ha! Thought so... (Don't say a rifle, we're talking CCW for unannounced trouble.) I suppose that would bring us to holsters. Any full size pistol can be carried comforting if you play around with holster arrangements until you find a setup that'll let you carry what you really want to. So what if you wind up with a drawer full of holsters? You'll have what you need if it goes bad for ya'... If the first rule of gunfighting is have a gun, then wouldn't the second rule be 'bring enough gun'?

October 2, 2002, 03:54 PM	#17
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Hemicuda, Semantic antics. Three USP .45s came down the production line one after the other. One goes through thousands of rounds without a hiccup. The other breaks its slide stop after 50 rounds. The third broke its firing pin within 300 rounds. They sure looked equal, but one was "reliable" and two weren't. And you're saying it's a feature? I want my TBA USP to be one that's reliable, so how do I special order that feature...? Reliability can be improved in ANY gun by good care and maintenance just as it can be trashed by abuse.

October 2, 2002, 04:40 PM	#18
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	Yes, but can you make an unreliable gun reliable ? To the point where you would trust your loved ones lives on it? I have seen guns from all manufacturers that had to be sent back, some more than once, to be reliable. Some have even had to be replaced. Perhaps you are the master gunsmith who can fix them all? When I was employed by a large Federal agency, we selected our service gun by buying samples of the contenders, and taking them to the academy. Trainees were invited to shoot all they wanted, and we kept detailed records of the lowest MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure). Our new hires were frequently experienced State or Local cops. The end result was the selection of a handgun with the highest reliability. In fact, I cracked the frame on one (after many, many thousands of rounds), and it still functioned 100% That, sir, is reliability __________________ Sleuth Last edited by Sleuth; October 2, 2002 at 05:34 PM.

October 2, 2002, 05:14 PM	#19
EOD Guy in VA Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 233	Next to reliability, without which I feel everything else is meaningless, I would say width. Width has the most impact on concealability and comfort. Weight isn’t that much of a factor for me if it carries comfortably and I’m confident I’m not printing.

October 2, 2002, 06:05 PM	#20
Erik Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1999 Location: America Posts: 3,479	Reliability, then width. Or, just width is reliabilty isn't deemed a feature. __________________ Meriam Webster's: Main Entry: ci·vil·ian Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\, Function: noun, Date: 14th century, 1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law, 2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1, — civilian adjective

October 2, 2002, 06:13 PM	#21
Ala Dan Member in memoriam Join Date: August 13, 1999 Location: In The HOT, Humid, and Mu Posts: 6,116	Greeting's All, Good thread here Fess! First and foremost, RELIABILITY! Size, and capacity would certainly be secondary. The way the weapon feels in the operator's hands would also be something to consider. All said and done, there aren't many quality weapons that I would feel out of place with. Best Wishes, Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

October 2, 2002, 09:17 PM	#22
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Reliability is BOTH a feature and a concept. Only I want ABSOLUTE reliability. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 2, 2002, 09:49 PM	#23
AR-10 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2001 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,182	The first critical requirement that needs to be addressed is not a feature or physical distinction, it is a concept. The determination to use the weapon if you have to.

October 2, 2002, 10:06 PM	#24
Eric Larsen Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2001 Location: Bountiful....Ut. Posts: 3,226	Blackhawk...I see your point..seriously. What I and probably a few more people meant was ..some guns are inherently more reliable than others..whether a specific design or perfect machining tolerances or what have you. Buy a quality piece for carry, have it checked out thoroughly by a good smith and tweak it a tad if you want. All of this assists in the reliability and my faith in the gun. Noone can guarantee that any gun will work all of the time..not even my fav. snub.....but I still consider reliability the most important "aspect" of any carry gun, regardless of how its portrayed or presented. Just my .02 cents... Shoot well __________________ If they dont know you have a gun.....then I did alright! If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice......Rush

October 2, 2002, 11:26 PM	#25
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,040	Well said, Eric. Reliability comes from a good design, good materials, and well made parts all assembled and fit together appropriately and then mated by the moving parts wearing in over time under the extreme operating conditions of the design. That's what every design engineer strives to achieve, but even so, undetectable flaws in parts will occur, and an example of one of the "very best" will fail. With machines, thousands of previous successful cycles means nothing about the next one, but our faith that it too will be successful is stronger despite the fact that reliability of machines declines with use rather than improves. That pesky old law of entropy will not be denied!