"Hard Or Soft...Which Is Better"???

ReserveCop · March 13, 2001, 11:45 PM

My agency has decided to offer us a choice with our new issued body armor.

We can have either a 6"x8" hard metal plate (not ballistic material...but will stop an ice pick, etc.) or a 6"x8" soft plate (ballistic material Level II...but will not stop an ice pick, etc.) to put in the vest's front pocket.

What do you think would be the better option...hard or soft...and why?

Thanks for your opinions.

**Mike Irwin** · March 13, 2001, 11:53 PM

A friend of mine is US Park Police.

They were given pretty much the same choice a couple of years ago, and he went with the hard plate.

Why?

Because it will stop a pointed/cutting weapon thrust to the heart.

A lot of people don't realize that a ballistic vest, unless specially made with layered stainless steel mesh, won't readily stop a knife.

Charmedlyfe · March 14, 2001, 01:31 AM

I've gotta go with the hard plate on this. I've been shot at a whole lot less than I've had someone try to stick something pointy in me. It's a little more uncomfortable, but worth it. The hard plate will also help to absorb some of the blunt trauma from a hit.

Long Path · March 14, 2001, 02:03 AM

I had this exact same choice last year, and went with the soft plate. Why? Well, it's a comfort issue. I wear that thing every night I'm at work. I probably average 45+ hours a week in that thing. And like having a Desert Eagle as a concealed carry piece, if it's not comfortable, it won't get worn.

The real drawbacks to body armor are not just bulk and weight, though those are real, but in rigidity and loss of ease in fluid movement. That really gets to you after a while. If it didn't, we'd all wear it, all the time.

I also question the hard plates' ability to stop ricochets. Most hard plates are on the outside of the vest in a thin cloth pocket in the carrier. A high-angle shot will ricochet off the mettalic plates. Where? Who knows? Depends on the angle of incidence. From below, I might eat one in the chin. A stab with a knife may be stopped at that one particular spot, but I'm also of the opinion that I'm unlikely to get stabbed in that particular spot. That's directly in front of me. Where the hands and arms are. Where the eyes are looking. I'm far more likely to get stabbed in the back or side. (think interview stance. Weak hip is pointed slightly toward subject.)

Now, my soft plate DOES have drawbacks. It doesn't do as much to attenuate blows to the chest. It doesn't stop icepicks. It won't stop most high-powered rifle (very little will). But it's worn each and every night that I'm on duty, which is more than I can say for some of the officers in my dept. that chose the hard plate.

--L.P.

Dave AA · March 14, 2001, 04:20 AM

Go with the "soft plate". you can wrestle a blade alot easier than a bullet. You will probably face a blade more often than an undefended ice pick thrust. Just think long and hard about which will protect your LIFE better.

Ed Brunner · March 14, 2001, 04:31 AM

Would there be any advantage in having both plates?

Mikey · March 14, 2001, 07:08 AM

I just bought my own 6x8 soft trauma plate for my level II vest except I went with a level IIIA trauma plate.

I guess I'm wondering why they are only offering level II plates since I would assume your vest is a level II already. The plates aren't real expensive compared to the cost of a complete level IIIA vest.

Just wondering

Mikey

jadams951 · March 14, 2001, 07:47 AM

My dept now has the soft plate in our issue vests. I too have heard the stories of the ricochet from the hard plate. I don't know where they started and if they are true. Just like everything else it has advantages and disadvantages.

Steve B · March 14, 2001, 07:48 AM

Go with the hard plates, secured into place with duct tape. Don`t forget to put some ceramic plates in a briefcase to deflect head shots. This is SOP for HRMROP (High Risk Mall Related Operations Personnel).

ReserveCop · March 14, 2001, 09:36 AM

Thanks for the suggestions.

How about a third option?

A friend of mine, also a LEO, suggested this:

Something called the T-15 plate made by Second Chance. He said it is made of Titanium...so it has BOTH ballistic and "ice pick" stopping features.

Do any of you use this T-15 plate?

The only possible negative I see is that I would have to BUY this plate (he said it costs about $75 to $80) with my own money as opposed to being ISSUED (i.e. no money out of my pocket) a regular hard or soft plate.

Do you think buying this plate would be a good idea?

Also, Ed suggested using both a hard and soft plate together in the vest pocket...is there any advantage to this idea?

Thanks for your opinions.

Jim V · March 14, 2001, 10:26 AM

a couple of questions. What is the brand of CBA that is being issued? Do you have to wear it or could you buy your own? The reason I ask is because often CBA is not purchased for the best protection provided but fot the best price for an acceptable level of coverage. Read: LOWEST BIDDER.

http://www.secondchance.com is one place to look for answers.

simon jester · March 14, 2001, 12:15 PM

RC,Isn't your LIFE worth the $75- to $80- out of pocket? If I was LEO, I'd take the hit(money) and get it anyway.

Long Path · March 14, 2001, 02:01 PM

I forgot to go into price. The soft plate, were you to purchase it separately, would cost you about 10-20 bucks more than the hard plate, usually. Usually they stop exactly the same amount as the hard plate, but for the now legendary ice-pick.

I had the option of paying extra into the kitty to get the Ti plate, but hey, I was a poor cop who's also a full-time student. I saw that the trauma plate would turn 6"X8" of my Level II vest into a Level III+. Good deal. I went for it.

I genuinely believe that a concerted stab to a hard plate on my chest would result in the blade tip sliding along the plate until it reached something more soft, like my throat.

Besides, would you be nuts enough to attempt to stab an armed guy with a knife or gun in the VEST?!? Most BG's assume we wear them, and frankly, they're not all that invisible.

ReserveCop · March 14, 2001, 03:52 PM

I believe the new vest that we will be issued is a Level II Safariland with side coverage.

Other than that, I have no further details at this time.

I have not checked, but I believe we can wear the body armor of our choice (i.e. any concealable vest brand or threat level) if we pay for it with our own funds.

Thanks for your opinions.

**Mike Irwin** · March 14, 2001, 04:27 PM

Longpath,

About 10 years ago a hard plate stopped exactly that kind of attack against a Park Police officer who was in uniform and on patrol in SE Washington, DC.

LawDog · March 14, 2001, 04:57 PM

I have to second Long Path on this one. A lot of people don't realize how darned uncomfortable ballistic armour is, and most don't realize how often they flex their torso during the course of a day.

My first armour was IIIa Second Chance with a hard metal 'shank plate'. Lasted about a week before it wound up spending more time in my locker than on my torso. I just got tired of being limited in bending.

My next armour was a II Monarch with a soft IIIa trauma plate. Much better.

If you don't mind wearing the 'shank plate' then by all means: do so. Just bear in mind that your stab protection doesn't do you any good if you're not wearing the armour.

LawDog

Long Path · March 16, 2001, 04:24 AM

Monarch II with IIIa soft plate? That's what I'm wearing right now.

I'm not saying that it can't nor hasn't stopped such an attack; just saying what L.D. is saying-- if it's uncomfortable, it won't get worn. If it's not worn, it doesn't matter what kind of armour you've got.

--L.P.

Steel · March 16, 2001, 11:46 AM

ask the Mall Ninja...one of each for the front and one of each for the back (ducktaped)

311man · July 31, 2008, 10:25 AM

You people need to clear up a few things. First off, you can buy hard or soft TRAUMA plates to insert in the pocket on your bullet proof vest. The sole purpose of adding a trauma plate to your vest is to help absorb some of the energy from a bullet hitting you. Even though your vest stops the bullet from penetrating you, the force of it hitting you can still cause some internal damage. The trauma plate helps reduce some of this force. TRAUMA plates are NOT designed to provide extra ballistic protection, all though obviously a steel plate would help stop a bullet. Also, a hard trauma plate would provide some protection against threats such as getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat or getting stabbed, though this is NOT what they are designed for. You can buy BALLISTIC plates, which are different from TRAUMA plates. Ballistic plates are designed to add extra ballistic protection to your vest and stop higher powered rounds. As far as i know, they do not make soft ballistic plates. They are usually hard plates made of something such as titanium. They are usually pretty thick and heavy and can cost about $200 whereas a TRAUMA plate is usually around $50. So, if you want extra ballistic protection, buy a ballistic plate, NOT a trauma plate. They have two very different purposes.

hoytinak · July 31, 2008, 10:44 AM

Wow...you pulled up a thread almost 7 1/2 yrs old..to tell them (most of whom are very experienced in what they do) they "need to clear up a few things" for your first post?!?.....welcome to TFL.

March 13, 2001, 11:53 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	A friend of mine is US Park Police. They were given pretty much the same choice a couple of years ago, and he went with the hard plate. Why? Because it will stop a pointed/cutting weapon thrust to the heart. A lot of people don't realize that a ballistic vest, unless specially made with layered stainless steel mesh, won't readily stop a knife. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 14, 2001, 04:31 AM	#6
Ed Brunner Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 1998 Location: Natchez, MS, USA Posts: 2,562	Would there be any advantage in having both plates? __________________ MOLON LABE UNTIL IT'S OVER! Ed

March 14, 2001, 10:26 AM	#11
Jim V Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 1999 Location: SE Michigan - USA Posts: 4,038	Reserve Cop,....... a couple of questions. What is the brand of CBA that is being issued? Do you have to wear it or could you buy your own? The reason I ask is because often CBA is not purchased for the best protection provided but fot the best price for an acceptable level of coverage. Read: LOWEST BIDDER. http://www.secondchance.com is one place to look for answers. __________________ *MOLON LABE* If it ain't metal, single stack & single action, it ain't a 1911 no matter what it looks like. 1911 Forum THE TUBBY CURMUDGEON

March 14, 2001, 12:15 PM	#12
simon jester Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2000 Location: Gardena,ca,USA Posts: 199	RC,Isn't your LIFE worth the $75- to $80- out of pocket? If I was LEO, I'd take the hit(money) and get it anyway. __________________ Every Man Should Have A Rifle Henry Lawson 1907 So I sit and write and ponder, while the house is deaf and dumb, Seeing visions "over yonder" of the war I know must come. In the corner – not a vision – but a sign for coming days Stand a box of ammunition and a rifle in green baize. And in this, the living present, let the word go through the land, Every tradesman, clerk and peasant should have these two things at hand. No – no ranting song is needed, and no meeting, flag or fuss – In the future, still unheeded, shall the spirit come to us! Without feathers, drum or riot on the day that is to be, We shall march down, very quiet, to our stations by the sea. While the bitter parties stifle every voice that warns of war, Every man should own a rifle and have cartridges in store! Proud TFL member # 5231

March 14, 2001, 04:27 PM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Longpath, About 10 years ago a hard plate stopped exactly that kind of attack against a Park Police officer who was in uniform and on patrol in SE Washington, DC. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 13, 2001, 11:45 PM	#1
ReserveCop Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 364	My agency has decided to offer us a choice with our new issued body armor. We can have either a 6"x8" hard metal plate (not ballistic material...but will stop an ice pick, etc.) or a 6"x8" soft plate (ballistic material Level II...but will not stop an ice pick, etc.) to put in the vest's front pocket. What do you think would be the better option...hard or soft...and why? Thanks for your opinions.

March 14, 2001, 01:31 AM	#3
Charmedlyfe Junior member Join Date: October 11, 2000 Location: SC Posts: 799	I've gotta go with the hard plate on this. I've been shot at a whole lot less than I've had someone try to stick something pointy in me. It's a little more uncomfortable, but worth it. The hard plate will also help to absorb some of the blunt trauma from a hit.

March 14, 2001, 02:03 AM	#4
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	I had this exact same choice last year, and went with the soft plate. Why? Well, it's a comfort issue. I wear that thing every night I'm at work. I probably average 45+ hours a week in that thing. And like having a Desert Eagle as a concealed carry piece, if it's not comfortable, it won't get worn. The real drawbacks to body armor are not just bulk and weight, though those are real, but in rigidity and loss of ease in fluid movement. That really gets to you after a while. If it didn't, we'd all wear it, all the time. I also question the hard plates' ability to stop ricochets. Most hard plates are on the outside of the vest in a thin cloth pocket in the carrier. A high-angle shot will ricochet off the mettalic plates. Where? Who knows? Depends on the angle of incidence. From below, I might eat one in the chin. A stab with a knife may be stopped at that one particular spot, but I'm also of the opinion that I'm unlikely to get stabbed in that particular spot. That's directly in front of me. Where the hands and arms are. Where the eyes are looking. I'm far more likely to get stabbed in the back or side. (think interview stance. Weak hip is pointed slightly toward subject.) Now, my soft plate DOES have drawbacks. It doesn't do as much to attenuate blows to the chest. It doesn't stop icepicks. It won't stop most high-powered rifle (very little will). But it's worn each and every night that I'm on duty, which is more than I can say for some of the officers in my dept. that chose the hard plate. --L.P.

March 14, 2001, 04:20 AM	#5
Dave AA Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 1999 Posts: 407	Go with the "soft plate". you can wrestle a blade alot easier than a bullet. You will probably face a blade more often than an undefended ice pick thrust. Just think long and hard about which will protect your LIFE better.

March 14, 2001, 07:08 AM	#7
Mikey Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Location: Tennessee Posts: 885	I just bought my own 6x8 soft trauma plate for my level II vest except I went with a level IIIA trauma plate. I guess I'm wondering why they are only offering level II plates since I would assume your vest is a level II already. The plates aren't real expensive compared to the cost of a complete level IIIA vest. Just wondering Mikey

March 14, 2001, 07:47 AM	#8
jadams951 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: Houston, Texas USA Posts: 295	My dept now has the soft plate in our issue vests. I too have heard the stories of the ricochet from the hard plate. I don't know where they started and if they are true. Just like everything else it has advantages and disadvantages.

March 14, 2001, 07:48 AM	#9
Steve B Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2000 Location: Maynard, MA Posts: 106	Go with the hard plates, secured into place with duct tape. Don`t forget to put some ceramic plates in a briefcase to deflect head shots. This is SOP for HRMROP (High Risk Mall Related Operations Personnel).

March 14, 2001, 09:36 AM	#10
ReserveCop Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 364	Thanks for the suggestions. How about a third option? A friend of mine, also a LEO, suggested this: Something called the T-15 plate made by Second Chance. He said it is made of Titanium...so it has BOTH ballistic and "ice pick" stopping features. Do any of you use this T-15 plate? The only possible negative I see is that I would have to BUY this plate (he said it costs about $75 to $80) with my own money as opposed to being ISSUED (i.e. no money out of my pocket) a regular hard or soft plate. Do you think buying this plate would be a good idea? Also, Ed suggested using both a hard and soft plate together in the vest pocket...is there any advantage to this idea? Thanks for your opinions.

March 14, 2001, 02:01 PM	#13
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	I forgot to go into price. The soft plate, were you to purchase it separately, would cost you about 10-20 bucks more than the hard plate, usually. Usually they stop exactly the same amount as the hard plate, but for the now legendary ice-pick. I had the option of paying extra into the kitty to get the Ti plate, but hey, I was a poor cop who's also a full-time student. I saw that the trauma plate would turn 6"X8" of my Level II vest into a Level III+. Good deal. I went for it. I genuinely believe that a concerted stab to a hard plate on my chest would result in the blade tip sliding along the plate until it reached something more soft, like my throat. Besides, would you be nuts enough to attempt to stab an armed guy with a knife or gun in the VEST?!? Most BG's assume we wear them, and frankly, they're not all that invisible.

March 14, 2001, 03:52 PM	#14
ReserveCop Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 364	I believe the new vest that we will be issued is a Level II Safariland with side coverage. Other than that, I have no further details at this time. I have not checked, but I believe we can wear the body armor of our choice (i.e. any concealable vest brand or threat level) if we pay for it with our own funds. Thanks for your opinions.

March 14, 2001, 04:57 PM	#16
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	I have to second Long Path on this one. A lot of people don't realize how darned uncomfortable ballistic armour is, and most don't realize how often they flex their torso during the course of a day. My first armour was IIIa Second Chance with a hard metal 'shank plate'. Lasted about a week before it wound up spending more time in my locker than on my torso. I just got tired of being limited in bending. My next armour was a II Monarch with a soft IIIa trauma plate. Much better. If you don't mind wearing the 'shank plate' then by all means: do so. Just bear in mind that your stab protection doesn't do you any good if you're not wearing the armour. LawDog __________________ "The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer." --The 13th Warrior Bona na Croin The LawDog Files

March 16, 2001, 04:24 AM	#17
Long Path Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 1999 Location: N. Texas Posts: 5,899	Monarch II with IIIa soft plate? That's what I'm wearing right now. I'm not saying that it can't nor hasn't stopped such an attack; just saying what L.D. is saying-- if it's uncomfortable, it won't get worn. If it's not worn, it doesn't matter what kind of armour you've got. --L.P.

March 16, 2001, 11:46 AM	#18
Steel Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 504	ask the Mall Ninja...one of each for the front and one of each for the back (ducktaped)

July 31, 2008, 10:25 AM	#19
311man Junior Member Join Date: July 31, 2008 Posts: 1	You people need to clear up a few things. First off, you can buy hard or soft TRAUMA plates to insert in the pocket on your bullet proof vest. The sole purpose of adding a trauma plate to your vest is to help absorb some of the energy from a bullet hitting you. Even though your vest stops the bullet from penetrating you, the force of it hitting you can still cause some internal damage. The trauma plate helps reduce some of this force. TRAUMA plates are NOT designed to provide extra ballistic protection, all though obviously a steel plate would help stop a bullet. Also, a hard trauma plate would provide some protection against threats such as getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat or getting stabbed, though this is NOT what they are designed for. You can buy BALLISTIC plates, which are different from TRAUMA plates. Ballistic plates are designed to add extra ballistic protection to your vest and stop higher powered rounds. As far as i know, they do not make soft ballistic plates. They are usually hard plates made of something such as titanium. They are usually pretty thick and heavy and can cost about $200 whereas a TRAUMA plate is usually around $50. So, if you want extra ballistic protection, buy a ballistic plate, NOT a trauma plate. They have two very different purposes.

July 31, 2008, 10:44 AM	#20
hoytinak Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 5,721	Wow...you pulled up a thread almost 7 1/2 yrs old..to tell them (most of whom are very experienced in what they do) they "need to clear up a few things" for your first post?!?.....welcome to TFL.