45 ACP load question

BigSlick · July 28, 2005, 02:03 PM

Hi guys,

I'm looking for a powder that fills the case to the point where a double would overflow (or be blatantly apparent).

Looks like two powders that seem to get good reviews are HS-6 and AA#7

Any of you have experience with either of these or another that gives good performance and hopefully burns relatively clean ?

Ramshot Enforcer published data seems to fit the bill, but I have not found any first hand accounts of using it in 45 ACP.

I've looked at data for Blue Dot, but it gets mixed reviews. Power Pistol works pretty well too, just hoping to fill the case a little more.

I will be loading 230MG ball seated to 1.260 OAL

Thanks in advance for the feedback

BigSlick

caz223 · July 28, 2005, 02:46 PM

Unique is great in .45 and a double will definately overflow the case.
I tried it, it definately spills all over, I had to clean it up.
HS-6 is a great powder, I used it in 9mm for years.
It will most likely overflow in the event of a double charge.

Russ5924 · July 28, 2005, 06:16 PM

I would think that as short as the .45ACP case is a good portion of the powders made to day would over flow the case or come darn close.Now the .45 Colt case you would be in trouble.All you have to do is take a little extra care on reloading. But there is a new powder by name Trail boss that is guarantied to over flow the case even .45 Colt but so new not around much yet.

Poygan · July 28, 2005, 07:29 PM

Seems to me that Red Dot is fairly bulky for a given weight. I use it frequently in the .45 ACP. I've tried to use it in 9mm to reduce the possibility of the bullet being forced back into the case during cycling.

rcksil · July 28, 2005, 08:59 PM

...."Unique is great in .45 and a double will definately overflow the case"....
'
'
You have to explain, why would you want a case to overflow with powder? I am about to get started reloading, just wondering.

BigSlick · July 28, 2005, 09:13 PM

Not for me per se. I use Titegroup with 4.7 grains and have so long that I almost don't have any other powder to speak of for the 45 ACP.

I have a new shooting buddy that is taking up reloading. He has read everything he can get his hands on, bought the Lyman, RCBS and a couple of other videos and read every starter guide he has been able to find on the 'net.

He is convinced a higher load density powder is safer. While I don't disagree with his idea, I don't necessarily think a high density load is more or less safe given proper attention to detail.

I couldn't answer his inquiry about a bulky powder that gave good results, so I thought some of the sage reloading pros here would be able to help.

Now, that I have been looking around, it seems that there are some powders that might be a good option for him, but I don't have any personal first hand experience.

As an aside, if the (bulky) powder of choice performs well, I might just try a few hundred for myself.

BigSlick

larryf1952 · July 29, 2005, 11:30 PM

I rarely consider load density in determining a suitable powder for a specific cartridge. I look at operating pressure, burn rate, and desired velocity. The low pressure cartridges like .380, .38 Spl. and .45ACP generally work better with the faster powders like 231, Bullseye, and similar other powders. A slight contradiction to this theory is Accurate #5 and the .45ACP...it is a bit slower, more medium burn rate powder, but was developed for use in the .45, and works well when higher velocities with the light 185JHP's are desired. This is what I shoot most of the time, and I've found some very good loads with this combination, but I also use a lot of Bullseye and 231 for all bullet weights in this caliber.

If one tries to load a slower burning powder in a low pressure cartridge, a lot of unburned powder is usually the result. This is why Blue Dot in a .45ACP is a bad idea, but is an excellent powder in .357 Magnum. This is one instance where I do consider load density as a factor, as a charge of Blue Dot in .357 will substantially fill the case. If I were looking to shoot light, low velocity loads in .357 Magnum (which I don't), then I would look at using a faster burning powder and reducing the charge weights.

In my early reloading days, I tried Blue Dot in .38 Spl. and quickly found that it didn't work well at all. It was too slow for .38 Spl., and I'd end up with the gun and my hands covered in unburned powder. Once I started to understand the concept of matching the powder to the cartridge ballistics, things got a lot better. HS6 continues to be one of my all time favorite powders in 9mm, as it is a medium burn rate powder and is suited to the small case volumes with higher pressures that the 9mm has. Power Pistol and WSF also work well here, as well as a few other powders. Same story with the .40S&W.

The slow powders are the case fillers, while the fast powders will usually leave a lot of empty space...even a charge of Bullseye in a .380 case will leave unfilled space. Match the powder to the cartridge, don't just try to force a powder to work somewhere it's not suited for, just because you might have "8 pounds of it lying around", and you want to get rid of it.

As for double charges, just be very careful and pay close attention, you should be fine. Figuring out this stuff is the fun part...best of luck...

**Bud Helms** · July 30, 2005, 07:21 AM

rcksil,

The point here is to identify a powder bulky enough to overflow the case if you accidently overcharge, as in drop two charges of powder in the same case, one on top of the other, for the simple reason that it would be readily noticed. In the case of many pistol powders, an acceptable charge for a given bullet weight may be way less than half the remaining case volume after the bullet is seated. A double charge could be dropped in that instance, then the bullet seated and the reloader, after dropping that double powder charge, seats his bullet of choice and off to the range he goes. When he comes to firing that round he has a BIG surprise.

So, it is merely a way of immediately noticing you've overcharged the case. That usually is a doublecharge. The challenge is find a clean burning powder that fills the case volume behind the seated bullet. It's always a compromise.

Another reason to use a bulky powder is to avoid a small volume of powder moving around in a relatively large case volume. There is an entirely different potential problem in really large volume rifle cartridges dowloaded to lower velocities, using reduced volume powder charges. In smaller total volume pistol cartridge cases, this isn't really a problem.

I quickly scanned larryf1952's post immediately above mine. Good general info on load density.

A reloader can't own too many reloading manuals and can't read them too often.

rcksil · July 30, 2005, 06:26 PM

Sensop...great Answer Thanks

Desert Dog · July 31, 2005, 07:36 PM

Regarding the use of AA#7, 10 to 11 grains of the powder will definitely work and there will be no chance of double charge...

BigSlick · August 12, 2005, 02:49 PM

Update:

I picked up a can of HS-6 and AA#5 and loaded a couple of hundred rounds of each to medium published levels.

The AA#5 is a pretty good powder

Snappy, but light recoil, pretty accurate (~2¼" @ 25 yds consistently off a rest) and uniform over the chrono (ES 21 fps). At 8.2 gr it is a little sooty, compared to TG. I think you could shoot this powder all day long without any discerable fatigue.

The HS-6 is a great powder. It burns almost as clean as TG (7.8gr charge), recoil is even lighter (less snap) and it really seems to do well with a 230. I loaded a few 185's and tried them. Accuracy for the 230 ball was great (best group was 1½" @ 25 yds with one flier, otherwise it would have been <1")the 185's opened up a little (3" groups) and left more residue, but I think bumping the charge a bit will help. ES for the 230 was 42, the 185 was 74.

Neither powder will overflow with a double, but both are blatantly apparent. Both meter well.

I am going to use the rest of the AA#5 with some hardcast 230 RN, the HS-6 I am going to work on the 185gr just a bit more to find the sweet spot.

Both powders cost the same, with the nod (so far) going to HS-6 because it burns cleaner and accuracy is very good.

I have a few 230RN plated Berry's that I will try tomorrow with the HS-6 too. I don't know if either will replace TG for my favorite powder for plinking with the 45 ACP, but both are a better option than many out there.

Thanks for the feedback guys

BigSlick

HSMITH · August 12, 2005, 06:00 PM

Try Hodgdon Clays. You get the best of both worlds, high bulk in a fast powder. Clays is also one of the very softest shooting powders made with 230 grain bullets. LOTS of competition shooters are using Clays in 45 becuase it is so soft and clean.

July 28, 2005, 02:03 PM	#1
BigSlick Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Texas of course Posts: 277	45 ACP load question Hi guys, I'm looking for a powder that fills the case to the point where a double would overflow (or be blatantly apparent). Looks like two powders that seem to get good reviews are HS-6 and AA#7 Any of you have experience with either of these or another that gives good performance and hopefully burns relatively clean ? Ramshot Enforcer published data seems to fit the bill, but I have not found any first hand accounts of using it in 45 ACP. I've looked at data for Blue Dot, but it gets mixed reviews. Power Pistol works pretty well too, just hoping to fill the case a little more. I will be loading 230MG ball seated to 1.260 OAL Thanks in advance for the feedback BigSlick __________________ Nobody likes war, but if you find yourself in one - fight for those you serve with and to make the trip home. Show mercy to those that deserve it and a relentless, ruthless, cunning evil to those who don't.

July 28, 2005, 02:46 PM	#2
caz223 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,429	Unique is great in .45 and a double will definately overflow the case. I tried it, it definately spills all over, I had to clean it up. HS-6 is a great powder, I used it in 9mm for years. It will most likely overflow in the event of a double charge. __________________ I'm not just a gun. I'm YOUR gun. (Hold me.)

July 28, 2005, 06:16 PM	#3
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	I would think that as short as the .45ACP case is a good portion of the powders made to day would over flow the case or come darn close.Now the .45 Colt case you would be in trouble.All you have to do is take a little extra care on reloading. But there is a new powder by name Trail boss that is guarantied to over flow the case even .45 Colt but so new not around much yet. __________________ Russ5924

July 28, 2005, 09:13 PM	#6
BigSlick Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Texas of course Posts: 277	Not for me per se. I use Titegroup with 4.7 grains and have so long that I almost don't have any other powder to speak of for the 45 ACP. I have a new shooting buddy that is taking up reloading. He has read everything he can get his hands on, bought the Lyman, RCBS and a couple of other videos and read every starter guide he has been able to find on the 'net. He is convinced a higher load density powder is safer. While I don't disagree with his idea, I don't necessarily think a high density load is more or less safe given proper attention to detail. I couldn't answer his inquiry about a bulky powder that gave good results, so I thought some of the sage reloading pros here would be able to help. Now, that I have been looking around, it seems that there are some powders that might be a good option for him, but I don't have any personal first hand experience. As an aside, if the (bulky) powder of choice performs well, I might just try a few hundred for myself. BigSlick __________________ Nobody likes war, but if you find yourself in one - fight for those you serve with and to make the trip home. Show mercy to those that deserve it and a relentless, ruthless, cunning evil to those who don't.

July 30, 2005, 06:26 PM	#9
rcksil Member Join Date: July 17, 2005 Location: Long Beach CA Posts: 52	Sensop...great Answer Thanks __________________ Rick In Long Beach NRA Life Member

July 28, 2005, 07:29 PM	#4
Poygan Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2004 Posts: 125	Seems to me that Red Dot is fairly bulky for a given weight. I use it frequently in the .45 ACP. I've tried to use it in 9mm to reduce the possibility of the bullet being forced back into the case during cycling.

July 28, 2005, 08:59 PM	#5
rcksil Member Join Date: July 17, 2005 Location: Long Beach CA Posts: 52	overflow ...."Unique is great in .45 and a double will definately overflow the case".... ' ' You have to explain, why would you want a case to overflow with powder? I am about to get started reloading, just wondering.

July 29, 2005, 11:30 PM	#7
larryf1952 Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2004 Location: KCMO Posts: 615	I rarely consider load density in determining a suitable powder for a specific cartridge. I look at operating pressure, burn rate, and desired velocity. The low pressure cartridges like .380, .38 Spl. and .45ACP generally work better with the faster powders like 231, Bullseye, and similar other powders. A slight contradiction to this theory is Accurate #5 and the .45ACP...it is a bit slower, more medium burn rate powder, but was developed for use in the .45, and works well when higher velocities with the light 185JHP's are desired. This is what I shoot most of the time, and I've found some very good loads with this combination, but I also use a lot of Bullseye and 231 for all bullet weights in this caliber. If one tries to load a slower burning powder in a low pressure cartridge, a lot of unburned powder is usually the result. This is why Blue Dot in a .45ACP is a bad idea, but is an excellent powder in .357 Magnum. This is one instance where I do consider load density as a factor, as a charge of Blue Dot in .357 will substantially fill the case. If I were looking to shoot light, low velocity loads in .357 Magnum (which I don't), then I would look at using a faster burning powder and reducing the charge weights. In my early reloading days, I tried Blue Dot in .38 Spl. and quickly found that it didn't work well at all. It was too slow for .38 Spl., and I'd end up with the gun and my hands covered in unburned powder. Once I started to understand the concept of matching the powder to the cartridge ballistics, things got a lot better. HS6 continues to be one of my all time favorite powders in 9mm, as it is a medium burn rate powder and is suited to the small case volumes with higher pressures that the 9mm has. Power Pistol and WSF also work well here, as well as a few other powders. Same story with the .40S&W. The slow powders are the case fillers, while the fast powders will usually leave a lot of empty space...even a charge of Bullseye in a .380 case will leave unfilled space. Match the powder to the cartridge, don't just try to force a powder to work somewhere it's not suited for, just because you might have "8 pounds of it lying around", and you want to get rid of it. As for double charges, just be very careful and pay close attention, you should be fine. Figuring out this stuff is the fun part...best of luck...

July 30, 2005, 07:21 AM	#8
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	rcksil, The point here is to identify a powder bulky enough to overflow the case if you accidently overcharge, as in drop two charges of powder in the same case, one on top of the other, for the simple reason that it would be readily noticed. In the case of many pistol powders, an acceptable charge for a given bullet weight may be way less than half the remaining case volume after the bullet is seated. A double charge could be dropped in that instance, then the bullet seated and the reloader, after dropping that double powder charge, seats his bullet of choice and off to the range he goes. When he comes to firing that round he has a BIG surprise. So, it is merely a way of immediately noticing you've overcharged the case. That usually is a doublecharge. The challenge is find a clean burning powder that fills the case volume behind the seated bullet. It's always a compromise. Another reason to use a bulky powder is to avoid a small volume of powder moving around in a relatively large case volume. There is an entirely different potential problem in really large volume rifle cartridges dowloaded to lower velocities, using reduced volume powder charges. In smaller total volume pistol cartridge cases, this isn't really a problem. I quickly scanned larryf1952's post immediately above mine. Good general info on load density. A reloader can't own too many reloading manuals and can't read them too often.

July 31, 2005, 07:36 PM	#10
Desert Dog Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 1999 Location: Deep East Texas Posts: 474	Regarding the use of AA#7, 10 to 11 grains of the powder will definitely work and there will be no chance of double charge... __________________ Yes, in fact I do have a 454... in more ways than one. "No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority" - Thomas Jefferson

August 12, 2005, 02:49 PM	#11
BigSlick Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Texas of course Posts: 277	Update: I picked up a can of HS-6 and AA#5 and loaded a couple of hundred rounds of each to medium published levels. The AA#5 is a pretty good powder Snappy, but light recoil, pretty accurate (~2¼" @ 25 yds consistently off a rest) and uniform over the chrono (ES 21 fps). At 8.2 gr it is a little sooty, compared to TG. I think you could shoot this powder all day long without any discerable fatigue. The HS-6 is a great powder. It burns almost as clean as TG (7.8gr charge), recoil is even lighter (less snap) and it really seems to do well with a 230. I loaded a few 185's and tried them. Accuracy for the 230 ball was great (best group was 1½" @ 25 yds with one flier, otherwise it would have been <1")the 185's opened up a little (3" groups) and left more residue, but I think bumping the charge a bit will help. ES for the 230 was 42, the 185 was 74. Neither powder will overflow with a double, but both are blatantly apparent. Both meter well. I am going to use the rest of the AA#5 with some hardcast 230 RN, the HS-6 I am going to work on the 185gr just a bit more to find the sweet spot. Both powders cost the same, with the nod (so far) going to HS-6 because it burns cleaner and accuracy is very good. I have a few 230RN plated Berry's that I will try tomorrow with the HS-6 too. I don't know if either will replace TG for my favorite powder for plinking with the 45 ACP, but both are a better option than many out there. Thanks for the feedback guys BigSlick __________________ Nobody likes war, but if you find yourself in one - fight for those you serve with and to make the trip home. Show mercy to those that deserve it and a relentless, ruthless, cunning evil to those who don't.

August 12, 2005, 06:00 PM	#12
HSMITH Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2002 Posts: 2,019	Try Hodgdon Clays. You get the best of both worlds, high bulk in a fast powder. Clays is also one of the very softest shooting powders made with 230 grain bullets. LOTS of competition shooters are using Clays in 45 becuase it is so soft and clean.