Carbon ring

[tangolima]

Haven't seen much discussion here. But on othere fora, especially long range or bench rest related, hyperventilation is always involved when they mention this term. It could be considered just a small step behind gun blowing up.

Is it really that bad? Is it that hard to remove? I think not. What think you?

-TL

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[rc]

Carbon rings are an accuracy concern to the competition rimfire guys and was a reliability concern for rimfire shooters that switched between long rifle and shorts. Revolver guys complain about this because when they shoot 38s in their 357 revolvers and then try to chamber 357 mag ammo, they sometimes can't until they scrub their chamber. I can verify that's true. Same would apply to using 44 special and 44 mag loads in the same gun without cleaning. The guns will not blow up, but carbon rings can affect accuracy and/or reliability. Rings form right around where the bullets separate from the case so I suppose it can also build up in centerfire rifle chambers but I've never heard about it causing a gun to blow up.

[tangolima]

Reliability such as failure to feed / chamber? They don't talk about that. They do believe it would open the group drastically. It can increase chamber to cause over pressure. All and all, it is something they highly dreaded about.

There are different methods proposed to remove carbon ring. Extreme case is to use reamer to cut it out.

I suppose it is more of a issue because of their tight competition chambers.

-TL


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[rc]

A reamer would be extreme! I use a bronze brush, bore cleaner and some elbow grease. Bronze brushes and bore cleaner or even just oil remove carbon just fine when my revolvers or rimfire chambers get sticky. My cast bullet 357 magnum ammo won't fully seat in the chambers of my 686 when it's time to clean the cylinder usually after shooting some 38s or a lot of 357s. My 22LR Buck mark won't go into battery when I chamber a round without a bump on the slide. Sometimes I get a click and not a bang when shooting. Same for my 10/22 with competition chamber. You'll know when it's been too long between cleanings because you start to notice reliability issues. If cartridges don't chamber smoothly and without assistance, then you have too much wax, lube, lead or carbon built up in your chamber.

[44 AMP]

The entire thing is a bug-a-boo based on incorrect assumptions blown all out of proportion, and claims of danger where there is none, or would be none if proper procedures are followed.

The first incorrect assumption is the idea that you should be able to shoot your gun with anything, forever, without needing to clean it. (and clean it correctly)

The next false assumption is that any chamber overpressure (above listed operating specs) will blow up a gun. It won't, unless your gun is seriously defective.

The most commonly mentioned example is the "crud ring" from shooting .38s in a .357 chamber preventing the chambering of the longer .357 ammo.

It is true, this can happen. Now ask the guys worried about it how many rounds it will take for this to happen.

They won't tell you. They CAN'T tell you. No one knows, there is NO hard and fast number. It all depends on the gun and the specific ammo being shot.

It's possible it could happen after a few rounds. Not likely but not impossible. It might not happen until after a few hundred rounds. And, even if it does, all that means is that you didn't clean your gun soon enough. That's a failure of the user, not the gun or the ammo.

A tight fitting brush, the proper solvents and some effort, done at the right time is all that is needed to clean the fouling out. A regular bore size brush often is not oversized enough, and a larger one may be needed.

If it takes a reamer to remove the fouling you waited WAAAY too long before cleaning.

I will not speak to the accuracy issues faced by match shooters, they may have a point, I don't know, I don't do what they do, or use what they use.

Literally the "problem" is caused by not properly cleaning the gun at the necessary intervals based on what you are shooting. This is a user error, not a gun or ammo flaw.

Ask the guys shooting muzzle loaders and black powder, or the guys shooting black powder cartridge guns, how many rounds can they shoot before they NEED to clean their guns because of fouling?

Same basic principle, all that differs is the degree. You must remove the crud build up or the gun will stop working properly, and in extreme cases, work at all.

[tangolima]

You can accuse all kinds of things against those competition guys. Not cleaning their gun probably won't stick. Between strings that's the first thing they do; cleaning their guns. You know, matching winning and record breaking.

I don't buy their carbon ring voodoo. I clean when I need to. I do minimal scrubbing and let chemicals do the work.

-TL

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[Jim Watson]

I never had the dreaded .38-.357 carbon ring and I shot a lot of wadcutters with a few occasional magnums and no unusual effort at cleaning.

My Nelson .22 Conversion did get to where it would not extract a live round. Larry Nelson said to soak the throat in C4 and brush, which clears out the fouling.

[tangolima]

It is not really about shooting .38spl in .357 or .22 short in .22lr. but rather it is in high-power rifle such as .308 win. or 6.5mm Creedmoor.

Someone would complain all of a sudden his super good shooting rifle shoots lousy and has heavy bolt lift. "Check carbon ring!" they will say in unison.

-TL

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[44 AMP]

Is "check the carbon ring!" match shooter newspeak for "clean your rifle??"

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Is "check the carbon ring!" match shooter newspeak for "clean your rifle??"

Not really. They mean looking, with a boroscope, for a distinct black band in the free bore. If there is one, then it must be the cause of the calamities. Next is to remove the ring. It is above and beyond the routine cleaning ritual.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

Carbon ring? Where and in what? (I am familiar with a ring that can form in a 22lr throat--but that's a far cry from across-the board firearms doomsday).

[tangolima]

Random pick off Google search.

https://www.ctdshooting.com/post/man...he-carbon-ring

-TL

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[stagpanther]

It does happen--but lots of stuff gets blasted into the throat, not just carbon.

[MarkCO]

There is obviously some confusion in this thread as tangolima identified.

In rifles, with some powders and some chambers and pressures in the 55Kpsi and up range, this is not "rough" carbon build up like we see in revolvers and rimfires. It is hard, and can be close to the hardness of industrial diamonds in the extreme case. It does affect the pressure curve, but it's not going to blow anything up. However, change the shape of the curve and we get erratic MVs. Realize that hunting/factory ammo with SDs in the 20s and 30s is common and acceptable. SDs above 10 can blow out groups needed for precision shooting.

Benchrest shooters, PRS shooters manage the copper fouling differently with different purposes, but both may have to deal with the Carbon ring.

[tangolima]

Rifle blowing up is exaggerating, but heavy bolt lift is not uncommon on the other fora.

Apparently carbon ring is not a thing here. The sort of precision we are shooting doesn't need to concern about it perhaps. But we should have noticed the heavy bolt lift. That's why I'm skeptical. Maybe we are not pushing the max load limit often.

-TL

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[MarkCO]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Apparently carbon ring is not a thing here. The sort of precision we are shooting doesn't need to concern about it perhaps. But we should have noticed the heavy bolt lift. That's why I'm skeptical. Maybe we are not pushing the max load limit often.

I do not believe it to be common. I've had it happen once, and I shoot a LOT in comparison to most.

It has likely happened to a few here, but most here don't have long throats or freebore, and unless you are shooting for the best precision possible, most won't ever notice it. Heavy bolt lift only occurs when the carbon ring occurs within the freebore that the ogive is trying to occupy right in front of the case mouth. Some folks will have "carbon ring" and never have heavy bolt lift, in fact, I think that is the rarer condition.

As I get older, I have fallen back to the mode I was in at the end of my motor sports racing...Never get near the edge. Overbuild and run it moderately. I do the same with my loading...if I am at a node that is near max, I spend some extra time to scrutinize the load and make sure I am well back of max pressure. Usually, it is just back it off to the next lower node. If I really need an extra 30 to 50 fps, time for a bigger case.

[Woody'sDad]

I am not sure if this is allowed but if not UncleNick can pull it off
I just watched a Hornady podcast (#103 I believe) where they discuss this exact issue
Fellow is a Senior Ballistics Engineer and he goes in depth on it
Both 44Amp and Tangolima are correct in that it is a cleaning issue

I fount the podcast quite informative
I have absolutely no connection with Hornady for full disclosure

[stagpanther]

Comp guys are much more likely to be using precision cut match chambers and close fitting cartridges--so the space tolerances are more likely an issue than your average forum Joe--you should also be concerned about build-up in bolts and firing pins--especially in a semi-auto. I just started watching that podcast, I think it would have helped if they had mentioned overbore which I think is probably a common denominator in these issues. I generally get berated for my obsession of using a hawkeye borescope in all my cleaning sessions , but it's really the only way I know of to get an idea of what's happening in that critical first couple of inches in front of the chamber (not to mention seeing my gas ports evaporate on poorly-cut barrels, but I digress). I do keep an eye on carbon--but I'm generally more concerned about cutting from the initial super-heated gas as that can be relatively easy to happen even when staying within "safe" load parameters on an overbore cartridge.

[labnoti]

The answers are all over the place here because they are not benchrest shooters that are answering.

The bottom line is in benchrest, a competitive shooter is going to clean their rifle every 15 to 20 rounds and they are not likely to shun the use of abrasive bore cleaning compounds like Iosso when they're necessary to remove carbon deposits. They're more interested in winning than preserving their barrels. What good is keeping the barrel forever if it cannot win? Win first, even if it is at the cost of a shorter barrel life. When the barrel is damaged from doing all the things people on the internet warn against, get another barrel and keep winning.

[stagpanther]

The answers are all over the place here because they are not benchrest shooters that are answering.

The bottom line is in benchrest, a competitive shooter is going to clean their rifle every 15 to 20 rounds and they are not likely to shun the use of abrasive bore cleaning compounds like Iosso when they're necessary to remove carbon deposits. They're more interested in winning than preserving their barrels. What good is keeping the barrel forever if it cannot win? Win first, even if it is at the cost of a shorter barrel life. When the barrel is damaged from doing all the things people on the internet warn against, get another barrel and keep winning.

Nor was the OP's question directed solely at benchrest shooters--and I believe it is implicit in his question; is the formation of a carbon ring (or what is perceived to be a carbon ring) inherently dangerous?

[Unclenick]

If you read the article TL linked to, the author seems to have had the issue even in hunting rifles (though to be fair, these were Varmint rifles, which are often built pretty tightly).

I have to say, in all the years I've been shooting, and despite having routinely used a borescope ever since the Hawkeye came out, this carbon issue has never even been on my radar. The one bit of carbon I've had trouble removing has been what accumulated in the corner of the step in the chamber that corresponds to the cartridge case mouth profile and that limits neck length, and if you trim your brass, that doesn't present an interference issue.

The main pressure and accuracy thing I've had issues with in some production barrels is copper accumulation narrowing a bore forward of the throat (where the bullet is traveling as the pressure peaks, upsetting it radially to increase friction). A cleaning problem is that copper and powder fouling will lay down in alternating thin partially covering layers, so some copper dissolving chemistry will slow down trying to get through a carbon fouling layers if it doesn't have adequate detergency or carbon removal abilities of its own (Bore Tech Eliminator has both, which is part of why it works well). But I don't recall any barrel I'd cleared of excess copper still having any visible carbon left other than at the aforementioned location.

I found out by trial and error that wetting that carbonized chamber profile inside corner with Gunzilla and letting it sit overnight would loosen it for patching out cleanly. I'm sure Slip2000 Carbon Killer would soften it for brushing and patching out, too, and much faster. Indeed, I'd be tempted to double-gang a carbon ring by letting the Carbon Killer soften it for ten or fifteen minutes, patching it out, and then using Boretech C4 and patches for final carbon removal to see If I couldn't avoid the brushes altogether.

But before I went there, I'd have to see the problem first. Drat! Now I'm going to be doing some range scoping after every shot, looking for this issue to appear. Bother!

[MarkCO]

^ I shoot a lot, and I have match chambers and I've seen it once in my own rifles. It's something to be aware of, but not obsess over.

[Unclenick]

I am wondering if it is related to specific powder types or pressure ranges.