A Declaration of Civil Disobedience - Page 2

Scott Conklin · March 4, 2001, 09:11 AM

That will only work at first. Yes, they will go for each one of us alone but after someones grandfather dies at their hands, and anothers brother, and a friend of a friend, it will be impossible to pursue us one at a time. It takes a certain harsh reality to get things motivated, in this day and age moreso than ever before, but once sufficient insult is given in the deaths and incarceration of loved ones there WILL be fighting "in the streets". Or more likely in the woods and mountains and plains.

Give it time, it's coming.

Oh, hey, AnotherPundit, you are the same one from Warladys and The Mental Militia, right?

Dennis · March 4, 2001, 10:06 AM

AP,

Your opinion of absolute government supremacy is popular these days, but not with me.

You may find this trite and not very "modern", but many Tories had similar defeatist attitudes during the 1700s. They were wrong - as our Founding Fathers and brave ancestors proved to the good English King.

A modern military right now is no more imposing that a "modern military" was then.

- Many military personnel would defect to the side of "We the People", bringing personnel, materiel, and expertise to the side of freedom.

- Many of the civilians whom you consider impotent are former military with considerable experience and expertise.

- No matter how many military people would fight FOR government control, they would be outnumbered. Their supply lines would be vulnerable. They would be unable to trust each other.

The concept of another "American v. American" war is a horrible and frightening concept. I doubt that our government would permit the wide-spread use of military force in our country - it would be counter-productive. May fence sitters would awaken to see what our government has become. Furthermore, it is not necessary to use force to conquer us.

A scenario which is more likely already is in motion - the gradual erosion of our Rights, Liberty and Freedom by compromise, by "reasonable" encroachment, and implementing the gradual slide into government tyranny and our consequent subservience. It's working even as we argue about its existence. But we remain steadfastly ignorant, blissfully secure in our apathy that, "It can't happen here."

It has. It is. It will.

Different · March 4, 2001, 10:21 AM

I'll make a point that I don't ever see discussed. Where are the American military combat units for the most part? Forward deployed overseas.

Thibault · March 4, 2001, 10:51 AM

"Myself I would never make it publicly known my plan or how I was going to break such laws were they enacted, because I feel its almost like walking into your friendly local ATF office and yelling "Hey you suckers, I dont like you, "
Wow, Guerilla1138, with a handle like yours, you really are a model of discretion!
If ATF, or anyone else for that matter, starts going through TFL's membership, whose handle would they feel like looking up first, Lendringser's, mine or yours?

Colombe · March 4, 2001, 01:14 PM

This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I've talked to people who refuse to join gun rights groups or sign gun rights petitions because they were afraid to be on a "list"..Helloooo? First off..if you purchased a new gun in the past decade or so, you're already listed someplace. Secondly, if you don't have the nerve to stand up for what you believe when it's legal to do so, you sure as HELL aren't going to have the backbone to do it when it isn't. Buried guns don't win battles.

Zander · March 4, 2001, 04:40 PM

"If it ever comes to armed resistance, we will lose. Any such fight will be a fight for defiance, not for victory." -- AnotherPundit

...you're wrong; and the entire history of guerilla warfare proves it.

Marko Kloos · March 4, 2001, 09:08 PM

On that note: no army in modern history has ever managed to suppress a determined armed people with the will to fight. Some of the most advanced military forces in the history of warfare have received bloody noses trying it. M-16s and AK-47s versus SKS and Henry-Martini rifles sound like an uneven match, but the defender in those historical examples always had two crucial elements on their side: it was their territory, and they had the will to fight for it.

glock glockler · March 4, 2001, 11:27 PM

Way to go Lendringser, it amazes me that someone who is not even an American citizen yet has far more guts and conviction than many so-called Americans who have watched their freedoms erode steadily but dont see that big a problem with that. I, for one, will be damn proud to call you a fellow citizen in a few months, but I am content to know that you are a Kamerad in arms right now. Let me know when the big day is, I'll send you a bottle of Jack Daniels(you cant get much more American than that

GG

AnotherPundit · March 5, 2001, 07:25 AM

If it ever came to open battling a la the afghans or anything else similar, yes, i'd agree, the guerrillas would win Eventually.

But I just can't see that it would. I don't think there will ever be open battles. There will just be slow, steady, gradual erosion of rights, and slow piecemeal confiscations. They won't go house to house searching; but every time they Do search a house, they'll take what guns they find. . just like they're doing in california now ("Really! we were chasing him Right Through Here!") Not with a bang, but with a whimper.

AnotherPundit · March 5, 2001, 08:21 AM

Oh, one thing I should clarify; it's not that I don't think such an uprising is possible, I just dont' think it's likely to happen until it's too late -- after the guns are gone, etc.

And yeah, I'm all over the place. Proselytizing my site if nothing else :P

Gus~ · March 5, 2001, 10:43 AM

Yeah !
Ditto

Thumper · March 5, 2001, 11:15 AM

Outstanding post.

Gun owners in California are going through their problems because their voices weren't heard above those of the sheeple.

That won't happen in my state. If it does, we'll fight. "They" know that. Because we make it known.

Like DZ said...it would have been SO much easier NOT to dump that tea.

We don't remember John Hancock for writing his name in small print.

"Molon Labe."-Be careful not to say it too loud. Sheesh.

Red Label · March 5, 2001, 03:09 PM

I second the accolades to the original post, and other "defiant" posts here. I am known to those that know me as a rather outspoken critic of the government machine and the sheeple. And I have said aloud many a time to those that would listen, that I when the time came to stand-up for what you believe in, that I would indeed stand.

But, it is my sincere hope that when the s$%t really does hit the fan, that there will be some sort of uniting of the people. Organization is the ONLY way it will work. Chaos and "every man for himself" will NOT work. If the colonials had not been united, they would have gone nowhere. The whole match may have been started by a few in Boston Harbor, but without the people being united, we would be Brits now...

I live in Montana. Just a ways from where the Freemen stand-off occured, and right here in the city where they were tried (hell, they may still be on trial, I don't know...). On the surface, they had "flown the coup". But there were real issues with government. Was there ANY sympathy or public pressure on the Feds to keep it "right"? Not much.
They did things wrong all along the way to get themselves into the situation. But it all started they same way a lot of the same type of things start. Sort of the same way the Boston Tea Party started...

Think about it... for whatever reason, you are unable to pay your outrageously high taxes (in their case -- loan payments), so all of a sudden Uncle Sam steps-in and says he's going to take the land of your family and your ancestors away because you missed a tax payment. I can see why people wanna grab their guns in cases such as this. Whether you are a land-owner or not in this country -- YOU ARE STILL JUST A RENTER! Even if the mortgage is all payed off, if you miss the "rent" payment, you WILL be evicted. I can't believe that people have put up with this as much as they have. I'm pretty sure that this ain't what the founding fathers had in mind.

mpthole · March 5, 2001, 07:41 PM

Excellent Lendringers! I can (sort of) understand some people not wanting to make waves, but it makes me want to print it out, sign it and send it to EVERYONE in congress both locally and at the federal level. ...in fact, I think I will!

Tamara · May 8, 2002, 01:53 PM

I think this one should get bumped every so often.

jmlv · May 8, 2002, 02:11 PM

10 years ago. It appears they were wrong. You think perhaps you may be too? They may get away with your senerio once or twice but word WILL get out. Then its they who will get the surprise.

Edward429451 · May 8, 2002, 02:46 PM

Amen Indeed.

Does this mean we should be checking on our neighbors if we hear small arms fire in the distance?

It makes me wonder how they wouldv'e felt in Waco if they wouldv'e received occasional precision sniper fire from behind the lines. One shot every two to four days is all it would take...

What a terrible time to be a LEO. Used to the only had to look out for BG's. (How come there's not more civil disobediance to the CCW permits?)

The fundemental law boils down to two...

1. Honor and fulfill all contracts you enter into voluntarily and intentionally. (Even verbally. Be as good as your word.)

2. Don't tread on anyones rights in any way. (This is very broad and encompasses everything.)

**Bud Helms** · May 8, 2002, 03:33 PM

I think Lendringser's Declaration goes for freedom loving human's everywhere, not just in America. However, I do see it as our burden and right to show the way. The Declaration is a good step in that direction. It speaks for so many.

Well said, comrad.

Bog · May 8, 2002, 04:28 PM

I had the pleasure of reading Lendringser's Declaration (As I move for it to be known hereforth

) some time ago.

It planted certain seeds in my mind - not least the thought that at Lendringser has the opportunity to make such decisions, and such judgement calls. Where I currently live, I do not. In fact I have in my posession one, count 'em, one penetrative trauma implement that largely gets used for sharpening pencils and opening letters. Projectile weaps? Forget it!

We in Blaireditz have gone to far to even understand most of what's in the Declaration.

Which means I have far to go, I guess

Bog

Calamity Jane · May 8, 2002, 07:06 PM

Thunderous applause for Lendringser.

Bump.

MitchSchaft · May 8, 2002, 07:07 PM

Can it be this easy?

gburner · May 8, 2002, 07:13 PM

Another Pundit.....
I suggest, given your point of view, that you take every weapon you own and immediately turn them in. You have failed to understand that the issue is not the winning or losing, badly or otherwise, but the fight itself; a fight for a God given right, specifically enumerated in our Constitution, to keep and bear arms. Once this right is torn from the fabric of our liberty, all other rights, specified or implied, will become grist in the mill of tyranny.
I pray to God that we never see that day, but if it should come, I pray just as fervently for the resolve to make that fight, despite the odds.
Bravo Lendringser!

Brian Gibbons · May 8, 2002, 10:00 PM

However, I've always thought that it was not prudent judgement to let the "other side" know your thoughts or intentions ...

Torquemada · May 8, 2002, 11:15 PM

Quote:

nudists bearing/baring guns

I think that me running around nude would scare my neighbors more than whatever I'd be carrying

Quote:

pre-dawn raids by ATF/etc.

Well, I'm a night owl, so I s'pose I'd either be first or last

Hawkman · May 9, 2002, 08:23 AM

Another Pundit posted:

"one thing to realize: there will never be a battle in the streets. There will be a thousand million lone arrests and lone confiscations, in a million different solitary pre-dawn homes, and each separate law-abiding citizen will in serial order face tens and hundreds of body-armored, full-auto-armed, paramilitarily trained SWAT/ATF troopsmen, coming into each separate homestead in the small hours of the night with all the power of helicopters and armored vehicles to back them up. It would be a war of highly trained, highly armed, highly organized forces against random assortments of unsupported, untrained, and lightly equipped civilians, and the civilians would lose, lose quickly, and lose badly.

If it ever comes to armed resistance, we will lose. Any such fight will be a fight for defiance, not for victory"

Guess the militia movement is right, then. better go organize.

March 4, 2001, 09:11 AM	#26
Scott Conklin Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2000 Location: B.F.E. Posts: 1,721	Actually, AnotherPundit... That will only work at first. Yes, they will go for each one of us alone but after someones grandfather dies at their hands, and anothers brother, and a friend of a friend, it will be impossible to pursue us one at a time. It takes a certain harsh reality to get things motivated, in this day and age moreso than ever before, but once sufficient insult is given in the deaths and incarceration of loved ones there WILL be fighting "in the streets". Or more likely in the woods and mountains and plains. Give it time, it's coming. Oh, hey, AnotherPundit, you are the same one from Warladys and The Mental Militia, right?

March 4, 2001, 04:40 PM	#31
Zander Junior member Join Date: December 11, 2000 Location: Middle and East Tennessee, USA Posts: 2,059	Nope... "If it ever comes to armed resistance, we will lose. Any such fight will be a fight for defiance, not for victory." -- AnotherPundit ...you're wrong; and the entire history of guerilla warfare proves it.

March 4, 2001, 09:08 PM	#32
Marko Kloos Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Enfield, NH Posts: 5,521	On that note: no army in modern history has ever managed to suppress a determined armed people with the will to fight. Some of the most advanced military forces in the history of warfare have received bloody noses trying it. M-16s and AK-47s versus SKS and Henry-Martini rifles sound like an uneven match, but the defender in those historical examples always had two crucial elements on their side: it was their territory, and they had the will to fight for it. __________________ "The right to buy weapons is the right to be free." --A.E. Van Vogt, The Weapon Shops of Isher the munchkin wrangler.

March 5, 2001, 07:25 AM	#34
AnotherPundit Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2001 Posts: 487	If it ever came to open battling a la the afghans or anything else similar, yes, i'd agree, the guerrillas would win Eventually. But I just can't see that it would. I don't think there will ever be open battles. There will just be slow, steady, gradual erosion of rights, and slow piecemeal confiscations. They won't go house to house searching; but every time they Do search a house, they'll take what guns they find. . just like they're doing in california now ("Really! we were chasing him Right Through Here!") Not with a bang, but with a whimper. __________________ ----------------------- www.AnotherPundit.com

March 5, 2001, 08:21 AM	#35
AnotherPundit Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2001 Posts: 487	Oh, one thing I should clarify; it's not that I don't think such an uprising is possible, I just dont' think it's likely to happen until it's too late -- after the guns are gone, etc. And yeah, I'm all over the place. Proselytizing my site if nothing else :P __________________ ----------------------- www.AnotherPundit.com

March 4, 2001, 10:06 AM	#27
Dennis Staff Emeritus Join Date: November 23, 1998 Location: a small forest in Texas Posts: 7,079	AP, Your opinion of absolute government supremacy is popular these days, but not with me. You may find this trite and not very "modern", but many Tories had similar defeatist attitudes during the 1700s. They were wrong - as our Founding Fathers and brave ancestors proved to the good English King. A modern military right now is no more imposing that a "modern military" was then. - Many military personnel would defect to the side of "We the People", bringing personnel, materiel, and expertise to the side of freedom. - Many of the civilians whom you consider impotent are former military with considerable experience and expertise. - No matter how many military people would fight FOR government control, they would be outnumbered. Their supply lines would be vulnerable. They would be unable to trust each other. The concept of another "American v. American" war is a horrible and frightening concept. I doubt that our government would permit the wide-spread use of military force in our country - it would be counter-productive. May fence sitters would awaken to see what our government has become. Furthermore, it is not necessary to use force to conquer us. A scenario which is more likely already is in motion - the gradual erosion of our Rights, Liberty and Freedom by compromise, by "reasonable" encroachment, and implementing the gradual slide into government tyranny and our consequent subservience. It's working even as we argue about its existence. But we remain steadfastly ignorant, blissfully secure in our apathy that, "It can't happen here." It has. It is. It will.

March 4, 2001, 10:21 AM	#28
Different Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2000 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA Posts: 165	I'll make a point that I don't ever see discussed. Where are the American military combat units for the most part? Forward deployed overseas.

March 4, 2001, 10:51 AM	#29
Thibault Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Location: Middle of nowhere, Northern Quebec Posts: 336	"Myself I would never make it publicly known my plan or how I was going to break such laws were they enacted, because I feel its almost like walking into your friendly local ATF office and yelling "Hey you suckers, I dont like you, " Wow, Guerilla1138, with a handle like yours, you really are a model of discretion! If ATF, or anyone else for that matter, starts going through TFL's membership, whose handle would they feel like looking up first, Lendringser's, mine or yours?

March 4, 2001, 01:14 PM	#30
Colombe Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2000 Posts: 274	This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine. I've talked to people who refuse to join gun rights groups or sign gun rights petitions because they were afraid to be on a "list"..Helloooo? First off..if you purchased a new gun in the past decade or so, you're already listed someplace. Secondly, if you don't have the nerve to stand up for what you believe when it's legal to do so, you sure as HELL aren't going to have the backbone to do it when it isn't. Buried guns don't win battles.

March 4, 2001, 11:27 PM	#33
glock glockler Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2000 Location: Portsmouth, NH, USA Posts: 905	Way to go Lendringser, it amazes me that someone who is not even an American citizen yet has far more guts and conviction than many so-called Americans who have watched their freedoms erode steadily but dont see that big a problem with that. I, for one, will be damn proud to call you a fellow citizen in a few months, but I am content to know that you are a Kamerad in arms right now. Let me know when the big day is, I'll send you a bottle of Jack Daniels(you cant get much more American than that GG

March 5, 2001, 10:43 AM	#36
Gus~ Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2000 Posts: 111	Yeah ! Ditto

March 5, 2001, 11:15 AM	#37
Thumper Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2000 Location: Sugar Land, Tx Posts: 1,507	Lendringer... Outstanding post. Gun owners in California are going through their problems because their voices weren't heard above those of the sheeple. That won't happen in my state. If it does, we'll fight. "They" know that. Because we make it known. Like DZ said...it would have been SO much easier NOT to dump that tea. We don't remember John Hancock for writing his name in small print. "Molon Labe."-Be careful not to say it too loud. Sheesh.

March 5, 2001, 03:09 PM	#38
Red Label Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2001 Location: Urban Montana? Posts: 304	I second the accolades to the original post, and other "defiant" posts here. I am known to those that know me as a rather outspoken critic of the government machine and the sheeple. And I have said aloud many a time to those that would listen, that I when the time came to stand-up for what you believe in, that I would indeed stand. But, it is my sincere hope that when the s$%t really does hit the fan, that there will be some sort of uniting of the people. Organization is the ONLY way it will work. Chaos and "every man for himself" will NOT work. If the colonials had not been united, they would have gone nowhere. The whole match may have been started by a few in Boston Harbor, but without the people being united, we would be Brits now... I live in Montana. Just a ways from where the Freemen stand-off occured, and right here in the city where they were tried (hell, they may still be on trial, I don't know...). On the surface, they had "flown the coup". But there were real issues with government. Was there ANY sympathy or public pressure on the Feds to keep it "right"? Not much. They did things wrong all along the way to get themselves into the situation. But it all started they same way a lot of the same type of things start. Sort of the same way the Boston Tea Party started... Think about it... for whatever reason, you are unable to pay your outrageously high taxes (in their case -- loan payments), so all of a sudden Uncle Sam steps-in and says he's going to take the land of your family and your ancestors away because you missed a tax payment. I can see why people wanna grab their guns in cases such as this. Whether you are a land-owner or not in this country -- YOU ARE STILL JUST A RENTER! Even if the mortgage is all payed off, if you miss the "rent" payment, you WILL be evicted. I can't believe that people have put up with this as much as they have. I'm pretty sure that this ain't what the founding fathers had in mind.

March 5, 2001, 07:41 PM	#39
mpthole Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2001 Location: SW WI Posts: 462	Excellent Lendringers! I can (sort of) understand some people not wanting to make waves, but it makes me want to print it out, sign it and send it to EVERYONE in congress both locally and at the federal level. ...in fact, I think I will!

May 8, 2002, 01:53 PM	#40
Tamara Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 11, 2000 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 16,002	I think this one should get bumped every so often. __________________ MOLON LABE! 2% Unobtainium, 98% Hypetanium. The Arms Room: An Online Museum.

May 8, 2002, 02:11 PM	#41
jmlv Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2001 Location: PA AMERICA STARTS HERE! Posts: 739	Pundit, The soviots thought the same thing about afganistan 10 years ago. It appears they were wrong. You think perhaps you may be too? They may get away with your senerio once or twice but word WILL get out. Then its they who will get the surprise. __________________ JMLV NEW PA RESIDENT TFL ALUMNUS MOLON LABE!

May 8, 2002, 02:46 PM	#42
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Amen Indeed. Does this mean we should be checking on our neighbors if we hear small arms fire in the distance? It makes me wonder how they wouldv'e felt in Waco if they wouldv'e received occasional precision sniper fire from behind the lines. One shot every two to four days is all it would take... What a terrible time to be a LEO. Used to the only had to look out for BG's. (How come there's not more civil disobediance to the CCW permits?) The fundemental law boils down to two... 1. Honor and fulfill all contracts you enter into voluntarily and intentionally. (Even verbally. Be as good as your word.) 2. Don't tread on anyones rights in any way. (This is very broad and encompasses everything.)

May 8, 2002, 03:33 PM	#43
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	I think Lendringser's Declaration goes for freedom loving human's everywhere, not just in America. However, I do see it as our burden and right to show the way. The Declaration is a good step in that direction. It speaks for so many. Well said, comrad.

May 8, 2002, 04:28 PM	#44
Bog Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2002 Location: England. Where Great Britain used to be. Posts: 775	I had the pleasure of reading Lendringser's Declaration (As I move for it to be known hereforth ) some time ago. It planted certain seeds in my mind - not least the thought that at Lendringser has the opportunity to make such decisions, and such judgement calls. Where I currently live, I do not. In fact I have in my posession one, count 'em, one penetrative trauma implement that largely gets used for sharpening pencils and opening letters. Projectile weaps? Forget it! We in Blaireditz have gone to far to even understand most of what's in the Declaration. Which means I have far to go, I guess Bog __________________ Venetian Blinds: Sunlight with Scanlines.

May 8, 2002, 07:06 PM	#45
Calamity Jane Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2001 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 899	Thunderous applause for Lendringser. Bump. __________________ CJ “The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

May 8, 2002, 07:07 PM	#46
MitchSchaft Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2001 Posts: 1,197	Can it be this easy?

May 8, 2002, 07:13 PM	#47
gburner Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2001 Location: at the intersection of naivete and cynicism Posts: 1,365	Surrender? Another Pundit..... I suggest, given your point of view, that you take every weapon you own and immediately turn them in. You have failed to understand that the issue is not the winning or losing, badly or otherwise, but the fight itself; a fight for a God given right, specifically enumerated in our Constitution, to keep and bear arms. Once this right is torn from the fabric of our liberty, all other rights, specified or implied, will become grist in the mill of tyranny. I pray to God that we never see that day, but if it should come, I pray just as fervently for the resolve to make that fight, despite the odds. Bravo Lendringser!

May 8, 2002, 10:00 PM	#48
Brian Gibbons Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 388	Commendable Words ... However, I've always thought that it was not prudent judgement to let the "other side" know your thoughts or intentions ...

May 9, 2002, 08:23 AM	#50
Hawkman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2000 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 445	Another Pundit posted: "one thing to realize: there will never be a battle in the streets. There will be a thousand million lone arrests and lone confiscations, in a million different solitary pre-dawn homes, and each separate law-abiding citizen will in serial order face tens and hundreds of body-armored, full-auto-armed, paramilitarily trained SWAT/ATF troopsmen, coming into each separate homestead in the small hours of the night with all the power of helicopters and armored vehicles to back them up. It would be a war of highly trained, highly armed, highly organized forces against random assortments of unsupported, untrained, and lightly equipped civilians, and the civilians would lose, lose quickly, and lose badly. If it ever comes to armed resistance, we will lose. Any such fight will be a fight for defiance, not for victory" Guess the militia movement is right, then. better go organize.