ADVICE: Which route for an ultra accurate 1911?

[Mylhouse]

I'm in search of a 1911 to be my bullseye gun. I want it to be CAPABLE of 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards, even if I can't do that with me behind the gun.

Let's say the three choices available to me that I'm aware of all cost the same amount of money. Here's the choices:

1) Les Baer Premier II, used, no 1.5" accuracy guarantee, with adjustable sights.

2) Rock River Arms Standard Match, used, 1.5" accuracy guarantee, but with fixed sights.

3) Buy a used Kimber Custom Classic Target for ~$600, and take it to a reputable 'smith for a fitted Kart or Barsto barrel, fitted bushing, trigger job, and possibly tighten and lap slide to frame.

I don't care much for name recognition and resale value. I keep what I shoot.

First, which would you choose? Second, would option #3 give me the accuracy I seek or does a pistol need to be built for accuracy from the ground up?

Thanks, and I will take all your opinions into consideration. Hope you're all enjoying the Labor Day weekend!

[Tamara]

Option #3 could work out fine if the 'smith knows his stuff. Have you considered Acc-U-Rail?

[WESHOOT2]

Baer, Rock River, modify THESE as needed.

Mine is Caspian, of course, with Bar-Sto, Brown, EGW, Nowlin, McCormick and Caspian parts. Bomar rear, Wolff springs, Robar NP3, Mag-Pac mags. "Smithed by friend, tweaked and melted by me.
Accurate.......

Accu-Rails don't make a gun more accurate, they make the slide fit tighter. Barrel and its fitment are the critical components of accuracy. Call Irv Stone. Or Ed Brown.

I've handled stunningly accurate stock Kimbers, but from your list I'd pick #2 and add my own sights.

Let us know what you decide.

[ArmySon]

Some advice, while there are many fine smiths across the US that can be beautiful and highly functional carry 1911's, there aren't many that can build bullseye guns. So becareful with the smith you choose. Make sure he's reputable among the bullseye crowd.

The trick is properly fitting a barrel with a decent slide to frame fit. If the barrel isn't damn near perfectly fitted, you won't get that pin point 1.5" accuracy @ 50 yards. I've seen guns built by very well-known, magazine cover smiths that can't fit a bullseye gun barrel if their lives depended on it. It's one reason many of em build 'tactical', 'carry' guns.

My personal choice would be Mike Curtis but he retired. Another good choice is Chuck Rogers from Rogers Precision, Arizona.

Bullseye is a totally different ball game.

Best of luck!

[Mylhouse]

Weshoot,

Could I just slap on a set of adjustables on option #2, or would I have to have a smith alter the rear of the slide above the firing pin stop?

Son,

I'm not saying I disagree with you, but if very few smiths are capable of building a Bullseye gun, then are the guys at Les Baer and Rock River F.O.S. about their 1.5" guarantees? It seems to me that if you have a 1911 with adjustable sights and the 1.5" accuracy, then you have a more than capable bullseye gun. Or am I missing something? I've only been shooting a 1911 for the last 3 years, so I'm still learning and I'm all ears.

[Mylhouse]

Chuck Rogers and Don Williams (both in the same neck of the woods) were at the top of my list as far as smiths go for option #3.

P.S. Any good places to get Pho Tai in Pennsylvania?

[JohnK]

I would go with option #1, that way you've got the gaurentee and don't have to muck around with finding another smith to modify your gun.

"Could I just slap on a set of adjustables on option #2, or would I have to have a smith alter the rear of the slide above the firing pin stop? "

That would depend on which adjustables you wanted to put on it and what was already on the gun. Chances are yes, any adjustable you want to put on a quality gun like what you want to build will require machining the slide.

[WESHOOT2]

Yes, you can easily(?) fit an adjustable sight to your slide (based on existing sight cut).

A gun capable of 1.5" @ 50 yds offers 'bullseye' accuracy, but is not necessarilly a "Bullseye" gun.
A Bullseye gun might wear a rib that carries the unbelievably adjustable sighting system, and often the gun is set up to shoot ultra-soft 'sissy' ammo exclusively for Bullseye competition. Other modifications abound.

Or you can act like me and regardless of shooting discipline, just show up and "run what you brung".

Let us know...

[Mylhouse]

JohnK,

Option #1 doesn't come with the accuracy guarantee, only #2 does.

Weshoot,

I'm not going to go too crazy with the thing. I plan on using regular ole adjustable open sights. I'm not one for 'sissy' loads, even if that's what most of those guys shoot. I'll shoot whatever handloads I come up with that cycle well, shoot POA/POI once I get my sights dialed in, and that group well. I'm a weekend hacker that just wants to have fun and develop better shooting techniques (hold, breathing, trigger pull, poise, etc), not a Camp Perry hopeful. I just want to start off on the right foot with the right gun so any mistakes will be my own.


...all my ammo is not recommended for Glocks ammo....

[WESHOOT2]

MMC, Bomar, Caspian, Novak, Kings, McCormick, Wilson.....plenty of adjustables.
Some will (probably) fit your cut.

Suggest load development starting with.....(drumroll).....Bullseye. Federal or CCI primer, IMI case (acceptable alternative -- Starline), LEE "U" undersized Carbide sizing die, and rigorous loading technique and process.

(So what if MY 1911 prefers a 230g Golden Saber bullet over a normal pile of W231; your results may vary.)

[JohnK]

Are you sure Les Baer doesn't gaurentee that? The last line on http://www.lesbaer.com/comp.html says "Caliber: .45 ACP; .9mm w/supported chamber Ask about our 11/2" guarantee!
". If you ask for it I'm sure they can build it. Most of their guns have a 3" @ 50 yard gaurentee, but they do build them to shoot better, I'm sure for a price, when that's what the customer wants.

[Tamara]

Accu-Rails don't make a gun more accurate, they make the slide fit tighter.

Yes, but the since the barrel locks up to the slide, it's kinda nice having the slide pointing in roughly the same direction every time the gun returns to battery, no?

[Jeff OTMG]

I would suggest that you contact a smith to build it before investing thousands in a gun that does not use the good parts. Royce Weddle in Norman, Ok regularly accurized Colts using Douglas barrels (no they don't make one for a 1911, but if you start with a 10" barrel blank you can make one including the compenstor) that would Ransom Rest to 1" at 50 yards back in the 1980's. That was $700 to make and fit the barrel to your gun, just to give you an idea, 15 years ago. Alex Hamilton in San Antonio is another that can do work like that. Day and Hallock use to build a good gun, but are getting beyond their prime to say the least. Check the smiths who have built guns for the last ten years top 1911 Camp Perry shooters as well you will also find what the top shooters are using as a basis for the gun. I had one built on a Colt frame, using a NM slide, and Kart barrel. Go custom.

[Singlestack]

I suggest you check out Clark Custom. They have been building bullseye guns a long time. I own one of thier pieces and it is FAR better than I can shoot it.

http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/

[45Colt]

on the web and ask your question. There are beaucoup bullseye smiths who do only that kind of work lurking there. Be aware that there is a difference between a wad gun and a ball gun, and that will make a difference, too. (Like weshoot2 says, they make all kinds for bullseye.) Phrase your question so it reflects what you want to achieve from your gun, and they will give you the straight and skinny. HTH
Walt

[WESHOOT2]

As long as my sights and barrel line up the rest is moot.

Of course, my eyes don't line up with anything..........




---------------------------------------------

"all my blindness is old-age blindness"

[Mylhouse]

I have taken all of your posts into consideration (although I'm a little bit foggy on what Jeff OTMG recommends). I checked out Clark's website, and although his prices look very fair, and he surely knows his stuff, he only guarantees 3" @ 50 yards.
45 Colt, do you have a link for the Bullseye list?


I think that I will go with #2 so that I will have something right now and immediately start shooting with it.

When I get the RRA, I will probably sell my Mini 14 and Beretta 92, buy a Kimber Classic Target, and take it to Chuck Rogers or whatever to have #3 and whatever else is needed to make it respectable. It will probably take a while, so the hopefully the RRA will do nicely in the meanwhile!

The whole point is, I want to have a gun that is capable in the Bullseye arena that I can shoot in matches with. But I don't want a 'dedicated' bullseye gun. I want to still be able to use it in IDPA or IPSC if need be. (Just like I don't shoot Open class in IPSC, because I don't want a gun that's only useful in THAT arena)

"Run what I brung" is going to be my new motto! Can I use that Weshoot?

[Peter M. Eick]

Get the Baer. I have 3 now, 2 with the 1.5" guarantee, and yes they really will do it.

I was out this week with my 10mm 1.5" guarantee Baer and I easily get 5 shot groups off a bench with it that would pass. Also it is not as "tight" as you might guess. It is easy to press check after only 2000 rnds. Excellent gun expecially the Heavyweight Monolith frame.

Now my 1.5" premier II 38 super is a real tack driver. No problems here. I would gladly recommend one to anyone. It is tighter then the 10mm but still reasonably easy to press-check.

Finally the premier II 45 is not a 1.5" guarantee. It is just a tactical rounded version. It actually is the tightest of the bunch and it is the oldest and most heavily shot. I did not check, but it has around 5000 rnds down it. (I know not much to a die hard 1911 man, but I have a lot of pistols and not much time).

If you would like do a search for on my name for pictures of the 10mm over on glocktalk and I think I posted pictures of the 38/45 grouping on the firingline but I do not remember.

Anyway, go with the Baer and do not look back.