.38 spl & .22mag about the same?

ninjatoth · June 12, 2009, 05:24 PM

I was looking at the winchester website comparing ammo.A 38spl 110 grn HP has a velocity of 945fps from a 4" barrel for a muzzle energy of 218FPE.Well,a .22 Magnum 40 grn JHP has a velocity of 1480fps from a 6.5" barrel for a muzzle energy of 195FPE.Say you have a choice of guns,considering prices of ammo,reliability,8 shot cylinder with the 22 vs 6 with most .38s,and stopping power.Which is the better choice as a plinker/self defense gun?You probably give up 125fps by bringing that .22s barrel down to a 4" giving you more like 1355fps=163FPE,but,that's still pretty close to the .38's 218FPE,yet with 2 more shots with the .22 mag.So,what would you pick?

Jim Watson · June 12, 2009, 05:36 PM

I think the velocity decay will be worse due to the rifle powder used in .22 magnum. And energy is not the only and maybe not the best determinant of power. I'd rather have the .38 with good hollowpoints, but would not feel unprotected with .22 magnum. In the early days of the caliber, before expanding pistol bullets were common, one source said a .22 magnum made a worse wound than a .38 (roundnose.) So the opponent would bleed more. But would he fall down as soon?

CraigC · June 12, 2009, 05:37 PM

The .38Spl, hands down. I really wish magazine and ad writers would stop pushing muzzle energy as the be all, end all indication of a cartridge's performance on tissue. By itself it's a meaningless number and far too dependent on velocity, which rapidly diminishes.

Far as I know, they don't use rifle powders in rimfire magnums or small base centerfires. Typically slower burning powders appropriate to magnum pistol cartridges like Lil Gun and H110 or non-cannister equivalents. Velocity changes in the .22Mag follow right along with the .357, .41 and .44Mag's. Figure on a 300-400fps gain from sixgun to rifle. The 1480fps figure is right on, assuming a 1910fps muzzle velocity in a rifle.

ninjatoth · June 12, 2009, 05:42 PM

The only real reason I would pick a .22 mag over a .38 is ammo cost and availability.I personally use different guns for defense and plinking,a .357 and a .22LR.But should I just throw out that idea alltogether of a .22 mag as a defensive round,or accept it as almost as effective as a standard .38 spl?

scottaschultz · June 12, 2009, 05:45 PM

About the same???

I'll take the Winchester 1st, Magtech 2nd for personal defense. For plinking, the .22WMR

Scott

ninjatoth · June 12, 2009, 05:49 PM

I know in my head they aren't the same,it's just when you crunch the numbers they come out close as far as energy.so I ask "the same?"My common sense says the .38 is way better for defense,but,I really wouldn't want to get shot with a .22 mag to prove anything either.btw I really like magtech's .38 ammo

CraigC · June 12, 2009, 06:03 PM

Uh, no! Not even close. While the .22Mag will leave a mighty nasty wound, I would much prefer a larger hole and an exit wound. As I said, energy is meaningless taken by itself.

On paper, the .223 produces more muzzle energy than the .44Mag but which has killed all the African Big Five and which is usually used for prairie dogs and coyotes?

Kreyzhorse · June 12, 2009, 06:37 PM

Energy is a poor measure of a caliber's effectivness. The energy measurement puts a high value on speed while taking a smaller account of weight of moving object.

A .38, with a much higher weight bullet will do much more damage, deposit more energy and have a great chance of exiting than the .22.

I'd go with a .38.

For more on mass vs energy debate, check out Taylor's Knock Out index for more on the debate.

Jim March · June 12, 2009, 07:34 PM

38.

*However*, if somebody is very recoil-adverse because of, say, wrist damage, the 22Mag starts to make a hell of a lot of sense. Loaded 8-up in a snubby, it is not useless as a self defense weapon.

38 is better, but the 22maggie is one of those rounds that we're glad to have around for special needs.

BillCA · June 12, 2009, 08:11 PM

A lot of folks underrate the .22 WMR as a fighting cartridge. While it's not the same as a .38 Special or the .38 +P in terms of stopping power, it is still quite an effective little round.

I'd certainly take the .38 Special over the .22WMR if those were my two choices. the larger initial wound channel plus any additional damage done by expanding JHP bullets makes it the better choice.

At close range with a .22 WMR out of a snubby produces an impressive fireball that'll set your opponent on fire too.

joegator · June 12, 2009, 08:55 PM

The .38 is going to be more effective all around. But the .22 mag is a potent round with much more stopping power than most people give it credit for especially when the barrel lenght is 4 inches or more.

The issue today is the fact that .38 special ammo is hard to find while .380 is next to impossible. .22 mag ammo on the other hand is readily available. Given the choice I'd pick a loaded .22 mag with plenty of practice ammo over an empty .38.

CraigC · June 12, 2009, 09:17 PM

Oh I have a tremendous amount of respect for the .22Mag and also don't think it gets the recognition it deserves. I've done enough shooting with it in the field, both rifle and sixgun, to know that I sure as hell wouldn't want to get shot with one!

w_houle · June 12, 2009, 09:32 PM

First rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun, anything else is gravy

Model-P · June 12, 2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

A .38, with a much higher weight bullet will do much more damage, deposit more energy and have a great chance of exiting than the .22.

This statement contradicts itself. Sorry.
If two bullets hit a body with equal amounts of energy, the one that exits also carries with it some of it's energy, thus the body does not absorb all of the initial energy. It is only the bullet that stays in the body that imparts all of it's energy to that body.
I'm no expert, but I agree with what has already been stated, that it is the performance of the bullet with regard to the body that tells the whole story(the entry wound, the exit wound, as well as what the bullet does while in the body), and, yes, this is partially related to energy, but not entirely.

Kreyzhorse · June 12, 2009, 10:06 PM

Quote:

This statement contradicts itself. Sorry.

In hindsight, it does kind of contradict itself.

How about "and / or have a greater chance of exiting."

s4s4u · June 12, 2009, 10:23 PM

Big holes hurt more, 'nuff said.

Doc TH · June 12, 2009, 10:28 PM

K-horse is correct that kinetic energy calculations may be interesting but are not terribly useful for SD considerations.

There are many, many years of experience with the 38 spcl that demonstrate it is an effective round. That would be my choice.

However, the 22 mag is very potent and shows good penetration in ballistic gelatin. One problem is that from a handgun it is quite loud, and some (not all) ammo has a very pronounced muzzle flash, both of which could be an "indoor" issue. But the bigger problem is that there aren't very many semiauto or DA revolvers available in 22 mag.

bluetopper · June 12, 2009, 11:44 PM

About the same? I've never heard of anybody reloading the 22 Mag?

A S&W Model 14, & 148gr cast lead 38 special wadcutters are about as good as it ever gets.

armsmaster270 · June 12, 2009, 11:55 PM

38spl for me I had to use a +P+ 110gr JHP one time it didn't exit DOA on his feet and fell at my feet.

**Tom Servo** · June 13, 2009, 12:41 AM

Kinetic energy is an over-rated factor. Bullets cause damage by inducing blood loss and damage to organs. Everything else is numbers on paper. The larger the bullet, the more trauma, and the more chance of a quick, efficient stop.

Could I protect myself with a .22 WMR? Probably. Do I want to trust my life to "probably?" Probably not.

ninjatoth · June 13, 2009, 08:11 AM

I have a feeling that a .38 wouldn't go through someone,I have doubts that even a .357 would go through someone.

Stinkfactor20 · June 13, 2009, 10:15 AM

Ninjatoth:

Ever hear of "exit wounds"? Either the .38 or .357 can "go through somebody".

All things being equal, the larger diameter bullet is more effective, IMO.

Regards,

Stink

funon1 · June 13, 2009, 10:37 AM

And why cripple the .38 with a 110 grain weak load. Try 158 grain LSWCHP @ 1000fps+ from a carry gun. Then compare it to the 40 grain @1300 from same size gun.

Both can do the job under the best circumstances, but what about the worst? Consider the .38 is throwing almost exactly 400% more lead at a target, and will likely open to at least .50 cal (in my tests) You also have 200% bigger wound channel.

Then consider the .22 mag may penetrate far enough on a perfect shot, but the bullets tend to break up and separate. And since it emits a huge fireball out of small handguns, your first shot at night may be your only.

The .22 mag is best used in a rifle for varmint control (The use for which it is intended) IMHO.

Funon1

.357 mag · June 13, 2009, 10:40 AM

Bullet weight is a big thing in this discussion. A heavier bullet will help "stop" the person as well as put a hole in them.

Its like get hit with a 6oz hammer and a 16oz hammer. Both will hurt. 1 drives nails better.

Stainz · June 13, 2009, 10:40 AM

Several years ago, I chrono-ed Maxi-Mags out of my Ruger 4.6" Anniversary SS, soon to be gone, with the .22 WMR cylinder to get 1470 +/-39 fps. The .22 LR cylinder and Federal Game Shok gave 1023 +/-20 fps. Both were with 40gr bullets. I'll keep my Remington R38S12 +P 158gr LHPSWCs - they make ~860 fps from my 1.9" 642 - that's decent protection. Heck, I'll bet some 148gr full wadcutter target loads at ~670+ fps from that 642 is far better protection than the .22 WMR. Cerainly not as loud.

I helped a friend of my wife's one Sunday - after Church - with her NAA mini-revolver in .22 WMR. Not my idea of protection - but all she had. It beats nothing. Still, even a .32 ACP - like my wife's Seecamp - would be easier to shoot - especially if you had to hit something over a yard away. Her friend shot my 6" 629 - with some mild Magnums - my wife wouldn't even shoot that. You should have seen her smile...

'Anything' beats nothing. Some things just barely, however.

Stainz

June 12, 2009, 05:24 PM	#1
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	.38 spl & .22mag about the same? I was looking at the winchester website comparing ammo.A 38spl 110 grn HP has a velocity of 945fps from a 4" barrel for a muzzle energy of 218FPE.Well,a .22 Magnum 40 grn JHP has a velocity of 1480fps from a 6.5" barrel for a muzzle energy of 195FPE.Say you have a choice of guns,considering prices of ammo,reliability,8 shot cylinder with the 22 vs 6 with most .38s,and stopping power.Which is the better choice as a plinker/self defense gun?You probably give up 125fps by bringing that .22s barrel down to a 4" giving you more like 1355fps=163FPE,but,that's still pretty close to the .38's 218FPE,yet with 2 more shots with the .22 mag.So,what would you pick?

June 12, 2009, 05:37 PM	#3
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	The .38Spl, hands down. I really wish magazine and ad writers would stop pushing muzzle energy as the be all, end all indication of a cartridge's performance on tissue. By itself it's a meaningless number and far too dependent on velocity, which rapidly diminishes. Far as I know, they don't use rifle powders in rimfire magnums or small base centerfires. Typically slower burning powders appropriate to magnum pistol cartridges like Lil Gun and H110 or non-cannister equivalents. Velocity changes in the .22Mag follow right along with the .357, .41 and .44Mag's. Figure on a 300-400fps gain from sixgun to rifle. The 1480fps figure is right on, assuming a 1910fps muzzle velocity in a rifle. Last edited by CraigC; June 12, 2009 at 05:47 PM.

June 12, 2009, 06:37 PM	#8
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Energy is a poor measure of a caliber's effectivness. The energy measurement puts a high value on speed while taking a smaller account of weight of moving object. A .38, with a much higher weight bullet will do much more damage, deposit more energy and have a great chance of exiting than the .22. I'd go with a .38. For more on mass vs energy debate, check out Taylor's Knock Out index for more on the debate. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

June 12, 2009, 07:34 PM	#9
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	38. However, if somebody is very recoil-adverse because of, say, wrist damage, the 22Mag starts to make a hell of a lot of sense. Loaded 8-up in a snubby, it is not useless as a self defense weapon. 38 is better, but the 22maggie is one of those rounds that we're glad to have around for special needs. __________________ Jim March

June 12, 2009, 08:11 PM	#10
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	A lot of folks underrate the .22 WMR as a fighting cartridge. While it's not the same as a .38 Special or the .38 +P in terms of stopping power, it is still quite an effective little round. I'd certainly take the .38 Special over the .22WMR if those were my two choices. the larger initial wound channel plus any additional damage done by expanding JHP bullets makes it the better choice. At close range with a .22 WMR out of a snubby produces an impressive fireball that'll set your opponent on fire too. __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

June 12, 2009, 05:36 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,550	I think the velocity decay will be worse due to the rifle powder used in .22 magnum. And energy is not the only and maybe not the best determinant of power. I'd rather have the .38 with good hollowpoints, but would not feel unprotected with .22 magnum. In the early days of the caliber, before expanding pistol bullets were common, one source said a .22 magnum made a worse wound than a .38 (roundnose.) So the opponent would bleed more. But would he fall down as soon?

June 12, 2009, 05:42 PM	#4
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	The only real reason I would pick a .22 mag over a .38 is ammo cost and availability.I personally use different guns for defense and plinking,a .357 and a .22LR.But should I just throw out that idea alltogether of a .22 mag as a defensive round,or accept it as almost as effective as a standard .38 spl?

June 12, 2009, 05:45 PM	#5
scottaschultz Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2009 Location: Missouri Posts: 392	About the same??? I'll take the Winchester 1st, Magtech 2nd for personal defense. For plinking, the .22WMR Scott

June 12, 2009, 05:49 PM	#6
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	I know in my head they aren't the same,it's just when you crunch the numbers they come out close as far as energy.so I ask "the same?"My common sense says the .38 is way better for defense,but,I really wouldn't want to get shot with a .22 mag to prove anything either.btw I really like magtech's .38 ammo

June 12, 2009, 06:03 PM	#7
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	Uh, no! Not even close. While the .22Mag will leave a mighty nasty wound, I would much prefer a larger hole and an exit wound. As I said, energy is meaningless taken by itself. On paper, the .223 produces more muzzle energy than the .44Mag but which has killed all the African Big Five and which is usually used for prairie dogs and coyotes?

June 12, 2009, 08:55 PM	#11
joegator Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 537	The .38 is going to be more effective all around. But the .22 mag is a potent round with much more stopping power than most people give it credit for especially when the barrel lenght is 4 inches or more. The issue today is the fact that .38 special ammo is hard to find while .380 is next to impossible. .22 mag ammo on the other hand is readily available. Given the choice I'd pick a loaded .22 mag with plenty of practice ammo over an empty .38.

June 12, 2009, 09:17 PM	#12
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	Oh I have a tremendous amount of respect for the .22Mag and also don't think it gets the recognition it deserves. I've done enough shooting with it in the field, both rifle and sixgun, to know that I sure as hell wouldn't want to get shot with one!

June 12, 2009, 09:32 PM	#13
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,391	First rule of a gun fight is to bring a gun, anything else is gravy __________________ How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?

June 12, 2009, 10:23 PM	#16
s4s4u Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2007 Location: MN Posts: 365	Big holes hurt more, 'nuff said.

June 12, 2009, 10:28 PM	#17
Doc TH Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Posts: 633	.38 spcl vs 22 mag K-horse is correct that kinetic energy calculations may be interesting but are not terribly useful for SD considerations. There are many, many years of experience with the 38 spcl that demonstrate it is an effective round. That would be my choice. However, the 22 mag is very potent and shows good penetration in ballistic gelatin. One problem is that from a handgun it is quite loud, and some (not all) ammo has a very pronounced muzzle flash, both of which could be an "indoor" issue. But the bigger problem is that there aren't very many semiauto or DA revolvers available in 22 mag.

June 12, 2009, 11:44 PM	#18
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	About the same? I've never heard of anybody reloading the 22 Mag? A S&W Model 14, & 148gr cast lead 38 special wadcutters are about as good as it ever gets.

June 12, 2009, 11:55 PM	#19
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	38spl for me I had to use a +P+ 110gr JHP one time it didn't exit DOA on his feet and fell at my feet. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

June 13, 2009, 12:41 AM	#20
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	Kinetic energy is an over-rated factor. Bullets cause damage by inducing blood loss and damage to organs. Everything else is numbers on paper. The larger the bullet, the more trauma, and the more chance of a quick, efficient stop. Could I protect myself with a .22 WMR? Probably. Do I want to trust my life to "probably?" Probably not. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

June 13, 2009, 08:11 AM	#21
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	I have a feeling that a .38 wouldn't go through someone,I have doubts that even a .357 would go through someone.

June 13, 2009, 10:15 AM	#22
Stinkfactor20 Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Posts: 42	Ninjatoth: Ever hear of "exit wounds"? Either the .38 or .357 can "go through somebody". All things being equal, the larger diameter bullet is more effective, IMO. Regards, Stink

June 13, 2009, 10:37 AM	#23
funon1 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: WA state Posts: 361	Hardly close, unless you are hunting rabbit And why cripple the .38 with a 110 grain weak load. Try 158 grain LSWCHP @ 1000fps+ from a carry gun. Then compare it to the 40 grain @1300 from same size gun. Both can do the job under the best circumstances, but what about the worst? Consider the .38 is throwing almost exactly 400% more lead at a target, and will likely open to at least .50 cal (in my tests) You also have 200% bigger wound channel. Then consider the .22 mag may penetrate far enough on a perfect shot, but the bullets tend to break up and separate. And since it emits a huge fireball out of small handguns, your first shot at night may be your only. The .22 mag is best used in a rifle for varmint control (The use for which it is intended) IMHO. Funon1 __________________ No Jesus, no peace. Know Jesus, know peace.

June 13, 2009, 10:40 AM	#24
.357 mag Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2008 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 193	Bullet weight is a big thing in this discussion. A heavier bullet will help "stop" the person as well as put a hole in them. Its like get hit with a 6oz hammer and a 16oz hammer. Both will hurt. 1 drives nails better.

June 13, 2009, 10:40 AM	#25
Stainz Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 749	Several years ago, I chrono-ed Maxi-Mags out of my Ruger 4.6" Anniversary SS, soon to be gone, with the .22 WMR cylinder to get 1470 +/-39 fps. The .22 LR cylinder and Federal Game Shok gave 1023 +/-20 fps. Both were with 40gr bullets. I'll keep my Remington R38S12 +P 158gr LHPSWCs - they make ~860 fps from my 1.9" 642 - that's decent protection. Heck, I'll bet some 148gr full wadcutter target loads at ~670+ fps from that 642 is far better protection than the .22 WMR. Cerainly not as loud. I helped a friend of my wife's one Sunday - after Church - with her NAA mini-revolver in .22 WMR. Not my idea of protection - but all she had. It beats nothing. Still, even a .32 ACP - like my wife's Seecamp - would be easier to shoot - especially if you had to hit something over a yard away. Her friend shot my 6" 629 - with some mild Magnums - my wife wouldn't even shoot that. You should have seen her smile... 'Anything' beats nothing. Some things just barely, however. Stainz