Script for Shooting Aftermath

[Wagonman]

I have to take issue it is not unreasonable after a traumatic incident to be checked out by a doctor. Even if my posts are discovered apres' shooting I am not making any kind of admission of guilt I am stating that you should be checked out to make sure you are not having a stress induced cardiac arrest and avail your self of any pain reliever that is authorized by ALS SMOs as a preventive measure.

In fact, that is one of the protocols followed by certain pro Police municipalities, protects against liability for the city and excited utterances by a Copper who was just in a life or death situation. I urge every TC victim to at least have the medics check them out just to make sure they are ok what is the issue with seeking medical attention in an incident of a justified shooting. why is it always the Bad Guy that is protected not the Good Guy.

It is not slimy to do everything in your power to protect yourself, you were put in this position by circumstance or in Copper's case by your duty. You can rest assured the BG will be doing everything in their power to get the upper hand. So don't be the noblest convicted Man slaughterer or loser of a civl suit or unemployed Cop

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...you should be checked out to make sure you are not having a stress induced cardiac arrest and avail your self of any pain reliever that is authorized by ALS SMOs as a preventive measure....It is not slimy to do everything in your power to protect yourself, you were put in this position by circumstance...

You're backtracking, and it won't wash. Your asking for medical care has nothing to do with your concern for your health. You've specifically stated that you are recommending seeking urgent medical care without regards to any medical need and for the purpose of delaying talking with police.

In post 64 you wrote

Originally Posted by Wagonman, post 64, emphasis added

....Always make sure you verbalize you are in fear of being killed or seriously injured on the 911 call and upon LEs arrival "I was in fear for my life and I am having chest pains and am in urgent need of medical attention" .....

So if this is something you should always to, it's obviously without regard to whether you are actually having chest pains.

In post 73 you wrote

Originally Posted by Wagonman, post 64, emphasis added

...I am sure you get hooked up to a EKG after a shooting the QRS will be fast enough to warrant 10 MMg of valium and you cannot be questioned while drugged. It is a strategy to get some breathing room after a traumatic incident....

You've flat out said that asking for medical care is a ruse to temporarily avoid talking with police.

You absolutely need to preserve your credibility. Once you are caught in a lie, your credibility is pretty much out the window. Your testimony about what happened will usually be the principal evidence supporting your claim that you were justified in resorting to lethal violence. Lying will not help.

Yes, you have a right to protect yourself from police questioning immediately after a traumatic event. But you don't have to lie. Invoke your right to remain silent, ask for a lawyer or say the things that Massad Ayoob recommends. But don't lie.

As Glenn Dee wrote

Originally Posted by Glenn Dee, post 62

... Dont lie....

[Wagonman]

I am not backtracking. I unequivocally state that after a self defense shooting I would advise not speaking to the Police until I have been medically examined. Saying "I have chest pains" is short hand for I need medical attention. "I am having trouble breathing" is fine also. because if you think you will be feeling ok after a shooting you aren't facing reality. The idea is to give you an amount of time to relax, think, and wait for an attorney.

I am kinda at a loss at the disagreement with an innocuous bit of advice. We (the police) have had training in interrogation tactics and you are not always gonna get a pro CCW Copper responding. so my ADVICE is to delay the interrogation until you are in a better position from a chemical cocktail and a legal representation point of view.

[MLeake]

... the police can't make me do so.

If I'm detained, Miranda applies.

If I'm not detained, I can leave at will.

Tricks aren't required.

I'd only request medical assistance if I actually felt medical assistance were required. For legal assistance, I want a lawyer, not an ambulance.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...I am kinda at a loss at the disagreement with an innocuous bit of advice....

Because it's not innocuous advice. If you need medical attention, by all means get it. But to lie about needing it in order "buy time" (as you have previously put it) is a very bad idea.

And of course delay interrogation, but you need not lie to do it.

I'm kind of at a loss at a police officer suggesting that a victim of a violent crime start off the investigation by telling a lie.

[Wagonman]

You are not telling a lie that is germaine to the investigation. I would posit you are not lying at all just being on the safe side with regard to your health.

I understand Miranda, however, I have seen people not avail themselves of their Miranda protection when the only thing they should say is "I want a lawyer" I am just suggesting something to keep in the back of your mind should the need arise. If my suggestion injures your sense of right and wrong I apologize.

[Glenn Dee]

I think that some of us are putting the cart before the horse. Were being convicted in our minds before the investigation begins. A shooting investigation is almost always conducted by 3 or 4 people. The first officer, his supervisor, the investigator, possibly his supervisor, and at least one forensics tech. 99% of the time they will figure out exactly what happened. Most often they will ask the shooter " what happened?" Giving a simple statement such as "Some guy broke in my picture window, and came in screaming, waving a crow bar" No reason to go into details... If the Investigator asks detailed questions like "how tall was he?" " what was he wearing?", "What exactly was he saying?" at that point you may want to beg off of the questioning, and ask to do it at a later time. I'ts OK to be upset... It's OK to stop to gather your thoughts. No one can tell you how long that should take. Making a rehersed sounding statement will only sound suspicious. Everything thats being suggested here has been tried before. If you need medical attention... you need medical attention. If you dont have anything to say.... say nothing. If you feel that you need a lawyer, by all means tell them you want a lawyer. JUST DONT LIE!!! Dont overcomplicate the situation. Keep it simple, and to the truth... the truth can be proven.... so can a lie

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...If my suggestion injures your sense of right and wrong I apologize.

It's not a question of my sense of right and wrong. It's about the practical realities of getting caught up in the legal system.

I have seen lawyers use a past lie, or conduct that one might consider cynical or tricky, to effectively cast doubt on everything someone later says. A lie or a ruse can, and will, be used to attack your credibility. But if you are claiming self defense, it will be important that you be believed. Telling a lie is a lousy way to go about it.

[Wagonman]

How in the world is a prosecutor going to paint a victim of a aggravated assault getting medical attention in a poor light. I am not and would never advise anyone to lie about any aspect of a shooting. I am just passing on a strategy that has been used to protect vulnerable victims in a serious situation. Don't want to take the advice have at it. But, it is still helpful especially for Coppers who Effectively don't have Miranda protection.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...I am not and would never advise anyone to lie about any aspect of a shooting....

That's your story now, but that's not what you said before. Or are you now trying to make a distinction between lying about the shooting itself and lying about having chest pains afterward as a ruse to avoid the police?

In post 77, we looked at some of your past inconsistent statements. As I've quoted in that post you've advised people to claim chest pains even if the claim is untrue, and you've characterized saying so as a trick to gain time.

And you are also now seeing first hand how your prior, ill considered statements can be used to attack your credibility.

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...How in the world is a prosecutor going to paint a victim of a aggravated assault getting medical attention in a poor light....

He wouldn't be. He'd be using the victim's lying about it.

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...Don't want to take the advice have at it...

Of course I won't take it. Why would I consider taking someone's advice to tell a lie and thus jeopardize my credibility.

[Wagonman]

I have gotton some expert advice which has caused me to change my mind regarding CIVILIAN shootings. If you don't think you need medical attention don't request it. But, I would just to be on safe side. Make a short simple statement then remain silent until you receive legal representation. Which is all the request for the medical attention was---not an lie just an aid to keep an over zealous investigator out of your face until you have calmed down.

That said,

That's your story now, but that's not what you said before. Or are you now trying to make a distinction between lying about the shooting itself and lying about having chest pains afterward as a ruse to avoid the police?

No it's not. The fact that you went to the hospital in not germaine to the shooting. You are not lying about the facts of the shooting. Maybe I was too flippant with the chest pains example. It is not a ruse to avoid the police it is a option to delay questioning until you are up for it

He wouldn't be. He'd be using the victim's lying about it.

How in the world would you make that determination?----How do you prove I am not having chest pains?

I am sorry but in the real lawsuit adverse world nobody is going to make an issue of anyone in Police custody obtaining medical attention.

[Frank Ettin]

Wagonman, I'm glad you got the expert advice.

That said --

Originally Posted by Wagonman

...It is not a ruse to avoid the police it is a option to delay questioning...

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the difference in this context between a ruse and an option, when the option is based on telling an untruth.

Originally Posted by Wagonman

How in the world would you make that determination?...

I don't know. But lies have a way of being found out, and when your credibility is so important I submit that it would be foolish to risk your credibility by telling a lie.

[Wagonman]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand the difference in this context between a ruse and an option, when the option is based on telling an untruth.

Like I said, I agree that as a CIVILIAN you should not get medical attention unless you FEEL you need it. If it is an untruth it is an untruth or lie that doesn't affect anything or anyone other than giving you a little breathing room.

I don't know. But lies have a way of being found out, and when your credibility is so important I submit that it would be foolish to risk your credibility by telling a lie.

The only way for this lie to be found out is if you were to tell on yourself. Which, ironically is the reason to take a medical "time out" because a lawyer should never allow you to say anything incriminating.

I agreed with you but you still beat the dead horse.

[Marty Hayes]

Hello all:

Partly because of this thread, I decided to devote the cover article for the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network E-Journal to this particular subject matter. Enjoy.

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...rk_11-2009.pdf

[Wagonman]

Very well reasoned article. I would make the case that KISS would be the best advice.

"He threatened my life, I thought he was going to kill me, I attempted to escape he denied me that opportunity." "There is the weapon he used" I called for police assistance for me and EMS assistance for him" "I wish to sign Aggravated Assault complaints against him"

In the case of the On duty Copper involved in a shooting follow whatever advice given by your legal reps.

[Drummer101]

What I was told to do was to be on the phone with the police and while on the phone yell out what room you are in and that you are armed and will shoot if they come in.

I dont think this is the best thing to do though

[Mas Ayoob]

Wagonman, my brother, it sounds as if after four pages we've all reached consensus.

When the stakes on the table are as large as what we're talking about here, consensus is good.

best to all who contributed here,
Mas

[Wagonman]

+1 Mas