DONT LIKE SIG

[7th Fleet]

I have stayed out of this thread for the last couple of days, but the BS has gotten pretty deep in here and a few glaringly wrong things have been posted and need to be addressed.

<<<<<<<By the way, I'd like to see the GLOCK fire the (over pressure) ammo that caused the slide separations. Can you say Kboom with capital K. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


If you can call 18,000 PSI an over pressure round, then that was the problem, but the round in question that caused the injuries with the Beretta, was the 147 grain subsonic at 18K psi. "The military says the problem is the gun - Beretta says its ammunition. The ammunition has a case mouth pressure of 18,000 lbs which is less than Standard Commerical 9mm."
So much for your disinformation, of 70K PSI, check your sources of information before you start posting them as the truth on the web.


<<<<<<<<<Hey 7th fleet, the following statement was correct at some past date (try ten years ago, if not more): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So what, the model guns that the FBI tested are still the same and are still being manufactured and sold to the public to this very day. In the case of the Beretta the only significant difference is the slide retention device they have since added, to retain the slide in case of a fracture. The slides still fracture, they just don't fly off the back and smack the shooters in the face anymore, the slide retention device retains the broken slide on the frame.


Also the Navy SEALS adopted the Sig and will not carry the 92F due to the injury problems. They can live with the cracked frames since they do not endanger their personnel by failing in a harmful manner. The guns are still serviceable even with cracked frames.

Next problem that you people are ignoring is the fact that the FBI's procurement policy states, that any handgun that they adopt must have a service life of at least 40,000 rounds and a barrel life of 20,000 rounds. The Glock pistol can easily meet and exceed these reqirements and none of the alloy framed guns can even approach these numbers.

I quote directly from their manual:
"The FBI intends that the general issue weapon provided to every Agent last for that agents ENTIRE career. To this end, future FBI procurements will require a service life on the order of 40,000 rounds. Service life is defined as the life of the SLIDE and the FRAME, but not the barrel or other parts. The barrel should last 20,000 rounds." This is why the FBI doesn't carry Sigs, Smiths or any other aluminum framed weapon. An alloy framed gun can not pass the durability testing, pure and simple! So if you want your alloy framed gun to last as long as a Glock, buy 4 or 5 spares as backups. LOL

I have never seen this information in any of the general circulation gun magazines and it is not commonly know by laymen, outside of the LEO Firearms Instructor community. If you choose to ignore it, that's cool, but the fact remains that any alloy framed handgun has a limited lifespan and all of your whistling past the graveyard bravado, in defense of your choice of a personal defense weapon is silly at best and grossly uninformed at its worst. The facts that I have posted are straight from the manual, that we LEO Firearms Instructors recieved from the Firearms Training Unit at Quantico Va. This information is easily verified, if anybody wants to drop a dime to their local FBI office and talk to their resident Firearms Instructor.

What is your source other than your oppinions and you know what they say about opinions??????

7th

[DAKODAKID]

Why not just use an HK and be done with all
the BS????
From my MK23 to my P7, I think HK makes the best.
The End..

[J. Parker]

The San Bernardino County Sheriffs dept. is the largest in the country. Glock was in such a hurry to make a fast buck they sent a bunch of DEFECTIVE GLOCKS to the department. Sounds like we've got a QUALITY CONTROL problem to me. Glock Perfection? Keep dreamin' dude. Hey, maybe a few of those G-21's were sent to retailers in your area? Better be careful!

[J. Parker]

Oh wait, I just thought of another Glock debacle. Early nineties, California Highway Patrol (CHP) wants to transition to the 40 CAL pistol. Guess who won? The unassuming S&W 4006. Yeah sure, the G-22's they tested were "prototypes". So what. Surely, Glock wouldn't send anything but the best "prototypes".

[Zander]

"This is why the FBI doesn't carry Sigs,..."

You'd do better if you stopped making such generalizations.

I know several FBI special agents personally; all but one carry a SIG. What's the date of the procurement policy you're quoting? Are you even aware that special agents may choose from several models and aren't restricted to just one?

Federal agencies choose SIG all the time, with the most popular model lately being the P229/.357SIG.

If you want to champion pistols that have a nasty habit of kB!'s and are involved in more ND's than any other pistol, go right ahead, but don't accuse us of not knowing the facts when you are consistently using generalizations and selectively quoting info for the purposes of your argument.

BTW, didn't you say you were dropping out of this discussion because we were too stubborn to adopt your conclusions?

I didn't miss you.

[Shake]

Hey 7th fleet, check my previous posts. I've never argued the fact that GLOCKS AREN'T good weapons. It seems if we don't agree with your opinions, we are very obviously stupid.

Kind of funny how OUR posts need to have documentation, but YOURS don't. You quote from an FBI manual that states that they won't use a firearm that won't last 40,000 rounds then tack on the end that they won't use alloy framed guns, blah blah blah. . . (interject 7th Fleet's personal opinion). Read us the part where it says they won't use alloy handguns (i.e. Berettas or SIGS). As other posters have mentioned, they do. Document the fact that a Beretta or a SIG won't last 40,000 rounds.

As far as the (undocumented) statement about the Beretta slide still fracturing, there are a heck of a lot of Berettas 92's and 96's out there Mr. Fleet. When is the last time you read a post here on TFL stating that their Beretta 92 slide had fractured? You would think it would be happening with some regularity since it happened, as you stated before, with subsonic ammo. Do Beretta owners just not shoot their guns? Seems the military would start having a concern about this with all their 92's. Funny you don't hear anything about that. do they use underpressure ammo so their slides won't fail?

The SEALS won't carry 92's becasue of injury problems? Didn't you just enlighten us all as to how Beretta fixed the 92 so that no more injuries would occur?

Please document the fact that the ammo that caused the slide failures in the Beretta's was 18,000 (psi?). Just because you put quotation marks around it doesn't make it gospel truth. Where did you get that info?

I would pose the same question to you: What are your sources other than YOUR opinions? The only qoute you gave was some obscure reference to service life that had nothing to say about alloy framed guns or the SIG and Beretta specifically.

Here is another little tidbit for you, GLOCKS have limited lifespans too. Shocking, but true. Any machine does.

Hope I didn't ruin your day with that revelation.

Give me a break!

Shake

[SigmundSauer]

7th Fleet,

You are right! There is a lot of B.S. floating around this thread and you are adding to it.

I must apologize for posting the business about the 70,000 psi overpressured cartridge it was over 7 months since I was able to cite that number for a military briefing that I delivered. I can't remember the source I extracted that information from and don't really feel like searching for it just to entertain you. However, I assure you that number is no B.S.

40,000 rounds eh? Well I can't speak for current law enforcement deliveries but the official policy from SIG was that they were warranting their P229s in .40 cal to LE agencies to 40,000 rds and that is an aluminum framed pistol. You are right, aluminum framed pistols do not last as long as some other designs. I'm positive you can cite instances of Glocks going a million rounds. I doubt I'll ever shoot that many in my pistol. This blanket statement that all aluminum framed pistols only going 10k is B.S. up and down. Let's see, the Army's JSSAP trials in the '80s involves shooting 20,000 hi pressured NATO rounds in a number of pistols of each type to determine reliability, durability among other things. Both the Beretta and SIGs passed with flying colors. Several years later the P228 was tested by the Army again in 15,000 round trials - similar results. If you've got a SIG whose frame won't go past 10k - you had bad luck, and I'm sure some have. SIG did have some poorly engineered lots of frames that would crack prematurely back in the '80s. Again, as mentioned earlier a cracked frame does not disable the pistol.

Again, I ask you 7th Fleet. I'm sure your Glock will outlast my P226 but I doubt you or I will ever put enough rounds through them to continue this thread tens of thousands of rounds from now. Plus, I doubt your Glock will outlast my sigpro (or outshoot it). Your Glock is a great pistol, my SIGs is a great pistols. If you insist in having a pistol that is less accurate and less reliable than my SIG that may outlast my pistol 10s of thousands of rounds from now -- by all means, entertain yourself.

SS

P.S.

Shake,

I think you asked for a recommendation on a SIG. If you can afford hi-caps I wouldn't hesitate to get a new stainless steel slide P226 in 9mm. If you want a sub-compact for cheap the P239 in 9mm, .40. or .357 SIG is the way to go. If you want a service size pistol that has great ergonomics, will put a Glock to a durability test, and is match accurate, all while preserving your pocket book -- I have been TOTALLY pleased with my sigpro. I've seen them in Shotgun news for between 4 and 5 hundred bucks new. Can't beat that for SIG quality!

[7th Fleet]

I did not make this information up and I have the manual from the FTU in front of me and admittedly the information is dated (late 80s) but it is still revelant. Since all of the pistols involved, are still currently being manufactured and sold in this country. As I stated earlier the basis for my information , which incidentially probably 99 percent of the people on this board aren't privy to since they are not LEO Firearms Instructors and simply do not have access to it. It was posted in the hopes that someone might find it of interest and of use to them in making the correct decisions. I do not intend to get into a pi$$ing contest with people of unknown skills and qualifications, whats the point? This entire thread is nothing more than a group hug for the Sig line of handguns, from the majority and anyone who states differently is automatically the outsider. I could care less what kinds of firearms that you invest in. For all I know most of the people on this thread aren't even old enough to own a gun, judging from the maturity level shown thus far. But anyone who has been around guns for any length of time knows what the problems with the Beretta were and that the 70K PSI figure posted was a fallacy, it is also common knowledge that the ammo was off the shelf subsonic and nothing more. Why would the FBI include that in a manual along with the other information that I have included? This information was distributed to FBI certified LEO Firearms Instructors all over this country. Like I said check it out.


7th

[Shake]

Hey 7th Fleet,

Sorry, no SIGS in my safe. I'll have to bow out of the "group hug" thing. Like there isn't constantly a GLOCK group hug active on this forum.

You still did not provide reference for your quote of the 70,000 psi rounds. All the documentation I have ever read on the subject indicates that there were TWO documented military (note I said military) slide failures with the Beretta.

I don't care what kind of qualifications you have. If you expect people to take you seriously I suggest you back off your statement saying that the Beretta's that failed did so with subsonic ammo. Imagine the countless rounds of +P ammo that have been shot through hundreds of thousands of Beretta 92's with no failures. I say again, with the numbers of 92's out there, there would be mass threads on this board just regarding the slide failures.

I would have to say that the slide failures in Beretta's have suffered from the same hysteria that Kb's in Glocks have. You know (well, maybe you don't) as well as I that Kb's are very rare in Glocks, yet people insist on not buying Glocks of a certain caliber simply because they are afraid of the whole Kb idea. the difference here is that you may be willing to accept that whole concept in regards to the Glock, but insist on perpetuating false information about Beretta's.

As for your reference to the skills and qualifications of the posters on this BB, remember, you were the first to stoop to the level of actually calling those into question. As far as your skills and qualifications, any idiot can claim any skills and qualifications they want. Just like your obscure quotation from some manual that doesn't support your point in the least (did it say something about alloy framed handguns or did I miss that part?).

You are seemingly upset about your treatment in this thread, but go back and read your posts and see for yourself what a condescending attitude you come off as having. Most people will take some criticisim of their choice of firearms if it is delivered objectively. Of course you are free to do as you like. See what kind of an attitude you develop the next time you are in one of your Glock "group hugs" and someone busts in saying they are a POS. It always goes both ways.

Hey SS, I'll have to do some shopping. I have a friend that has a 229 that is a pretty nice firearm. I'll have to do some research. Thanks for the info.

Shake

[IanS]

Glad all of you are out there studying every minutae of modern handgun design.

But after all these postings I'm reminded of those college discussions that lead into the wee hours of the night w/o any resolutions.

IMHO:

1. Most people who do such "research" on guns probably own more than 1 (more like 20+). So if one breaks just grab the other one.

2. I'm glad other people carry Berettas, Glocks, Kimbers, Sigs, Rugers and HKs. I wouldn't want everyone driving the same car or wear the same shoes as me. They're all interesting with different personalities and the bottom line; they all work.

3. Funny to see so many gun geeks out there. Sort of like the battle between Green Lantern and Superman or Cpt. Kirk vs. Spock.

4. All makes from Sigs, Glocks, Berettas and HKs for me have some deficiency or another. If we could combine the best qualities from each then we'll have a winner. (They tried w/Sigpro and USP) Build quality and accuracy of Sig and HK, durability and fast/consistent reset trigger of Glocks, and the smooth action and positive ejection of the Beretta. Maybe someday.

Oh and by the way the Sig P Series are the BEST!

You can drag out all the "facts" and "tests" you want. I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG!

[Ala Dan]

And the new owner's of SigArms vow to keep them the best.
Yes, that's right Mr. Michael Luke and Mr. Thomas Ortmeier
private investors from Emsdetten, Germany vow to keep the
tradition going offering "world class" excellence in all
SigArms product's. To quote Mr. Hermann Kloetzer, "SigArms, Inc. will continue to supply consumers and law enforcement agencies with the highest quality products without any interruption of service or supply". So, 7th
Fleet I'm staking my money and claim to fame with these
guy's; as I feel their involvement and committment will
further strengthen SigArms, Inc. *** Quoted from an
article in The American Rifleman magazine, page 31 dated
Feb. 2001.


Respectfully,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member, 20 year veteran LEO

Sig-Sauer firearms yesterday, today, and tommorrow to
protect and serve a free nation; so divided that it's citizens can't even agree on a President!!!

[Richard]

I own a P220, P226, and P228. all of these pistols are very accurate and I have never had a bobble with any of them. I prefer 1911A11 pistols but I would bet my life, which I adore, on a Sig. Do I have any complaints with them? Yes, the P220 leads up fast so I shoot jacketed bullets in it, The P226 is too large for a 9mm, and I am not crazy about their triggers. My favorite of the three I own is the P228. Regards, Richard

[Edited by Richard on 01-17-2001 at 11:45 AM]

[Don Gwinn]

I love my 220, but I will never buy a new one. Too much money when I can buy a used one and get just about the same performance. A lot of people pay between $450 and $550 for 220's in great condition.

[BB]

I don't like 'em. They don't feel right in my hand, I think they have excessive muzzle flip and the triggers suck. I'm sure they are plenty reliable. The SIG P210s are nice, but far more expensive than they are worth IMO.

[Doug 29]

Richard

Might try a Bar-Sto Barrel in that 220. I have one in a 1911 .45 and it hasn't leaded yet! Just a couple of patches with Hoppe's #9 and it's clean! Accuracy is superb.

My Sig 229, .40 S&W, will lead a very small amount after shooting several hundred rounds. I load a 175 gr. SWC, with a medium amount of WSF. As far as the trigger on a sig, my 229 has a little creep, but is smooth as butter and at the lbs. listed in the owner's manual. I like it very much. It is different from my 1911 and I can't go immediately from one to the other and still shoot good groups. I need some dry-firing to adjust to each trigger.

[TunnelVision]

I like Sigs!

[Tecolote]

Let's get things straight around here, it's SIG Sauer not SIG. If you own a P10 you own a Swiss made SIG, if you own any of the Classic series or a sig pro you own a German or US made SIG Sauer. Now that I got that off my chest I feel better.

Again the CHP myth rears its head. Peter Kokalis, the respected technical editor for SOF says this: "Unfortunately, Glock was pressured into submitting two prototype caliber.40 S&W pistols to the California Highway Patrol (CHP) only for examination and moderate test firing. Inappropriately, the pistols were subjected to the extensive trials designed to provide information for adoption of a new handgun for CHP. The prototypes' magazines had been converted from 9mm Parabellum and failed to hold the slide open. A crack developed on the breech face of the slide. The Glock pistol was not adopted and most certainly they will never again submit unproven prototypes for tests of this type. It goes without saying that series-production caliber .40 S&W Glock pistols have been redesigned to correct these deficiencies." http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/40/23/index.htm

SIG Sauer Classics with stamped slides are great, but they're high maintenance. If you carry one daily you need to spend time wiping it down, applying CLP, doing this and that. GO over to http://www.sigforum.com and read the posts about the gouging on the alloy frames of the other Classic pistols. Hardcore SIG Sauer fans call it normal wear, I know gouging when I see it. I had a P228 that was tearing pieces off the frame. SIGArms call it normal, I call it a defect and traded the thing off. SIG Sauers also like lube, can't run them dry because they'll lock. Glocks are a completely different breed. They can run dry, heck they'll work with sweat for lube. Like it or not Gaston Glock changed the pistol world when he and his team of engineers came up with the Glock. They're tough as nails, go anywhere handle anything pistols. Are they perfect? No, nothing made by man is perfect. Some have had Glock lemons, some have had kB!s, and they just don't fit the hands of some shooters. They've proven their worth again and again, however. If you don't like Glocks don't buy them. Mr Glock won't miss your business one bit. If you don't like SIG Sauers don't buy them, SIGArms will manage without your money. But please don't slam these two fine products. For me and to defend my loved ones, Glock has proven itself again and again. Until I have one fail I'll keep the faith.

[J. Parker]

Tecolote; CHP myth- I understand WHY the Glock's broke but why would the factory send marginal samples in the first place? Not a real smart business move. Same thing happened when they sent those G-21's to the San Bernardino County Sheriffs Department. Sounds like a quality control problem to me. I can say "just go over to the Glock Forum" as easy as you can say "just go over to the Sig Forum". ALL pistols have their problems as I think we can agree on. I don't slam Glock's, I simply offer a different opinion based on my own experience. Best Regards, J. Parker

[Tecolote]

J. Parker,

I responded to the CHP myth, which is a myth. Glock sent them pistols to examine not to put through testing. CHP did the testing without authorization. So in effect it wasn't Glock's fault, how could they anticipate someone else's actions? To say that Glocks failed CHP testing and S&W passed is unfair. The details must be included. I don't mention San Bernardino so why do you bring it up? As I understand it they had an issue with G21 mags that Glock immediately addressed. In fact they still issue G21s and G17s to their officers.

I don't get the reference you make to my suggestion to visit http://www.sigforum.com My intent was to point out a dedicated web site where mostly loyalists post. Even there you'll find complaints of frame gouging. If the loyalists complain than that tells me something. I had a terrible experience with frame gouging. Later I learned it's common on SIG Sauer pistols, so I reiterate go to the sigforum and do a search and you'll find plenty of posts. I agree that people should go over to http://www.glocktalk.com There loyalists complain about kB!s So your point is what? Bottom line, Glocks rock. Compare the agencies that have had problems with the thousands of agencies that have gotten top performance and one outweighs another. I'm sure it's the same with SIG Sauer.

[J. Parker]

Tecolote; It's all about brand loyalty. What pistol did a person start with? What experience does that person have with a certain line of pistols? Brand loyalty is strong and it's certainly understandable. You like Glock's. I like Sig-Sauer's. May the debate rage eternal....J. Parker

[Tecolote]

J. Parker,

It's great to have a site like this where discussions can be had.

Actually I like both SIG Sauers and Glocks. I think they each have their advantages and disadvantages. Now if only someone would make a P225 in .40 with a Tenifer slide and polymer frame, well then, that would be Perfection.

[J. Parker]

My favorite size Glock is the G-19/23. Why didn't they come out with a G-19 size in 45 cal? Oh well. Best Regards, J. Parker

[Zander]

"I did not make this information up and I have the manual from the FTU in front of me and admittedly the information is dated (late 80s) but it is still revelant."

Late '80's?!? LOL!!!

You'll gladly ignore the proof that Glock pistols in .40 Auto had an unfortunate habit of going kB!, won't you? And you'll ignore the hush-hush re-design by Gaston's troops.

Your information is dated; your conclusion is...well, silly.

To be blunt, you don't know what you're regurgitating.

If you don't like SIGs, fine, but don't spend your time in an attempt, using dated material and specious anecdotal info, to slam one of the greatest combat pistols manufactured today.

"...probably 99 percent of the people on this board aren't privy to since they are not LEO Firearms Instructors..."

Yep...and we don't know the secret handshake either. What's your point?

"I do not intend to get into a pi$$ing contest with people of unknown skills and qualifications, whats the point?"

Do you mean other then the fact that you are wrong?

"This entire thread is nothing more than a group hug for the Sig line of handguns, from the majority and anyone who states differently is automatically the outsider."

Oh, dear...you've been presented with facts and you're going to whine that they are unfair. Did you vote for Gore?

"For all I know most of the people on this thread aren't even old enough to own a gun, judging from the maturity level shown thus far."

Well, there you are -- anyone who opposes your elitism is of necessity not smart enough to own a firearm.

Is this the point [again] where you tell us you're mad and you're gonna take your ball and go home?

Bye!

[Zander]

"Peter Kokalis, the respected technical editor for SOF says this: "Unfortunately, Glock was pressured into submitting two prototype caliber.40 S&W pistols to the California Highway Patrol (CHP) only for examination and moderate test firing."

Pressured? If you want your product adopted, you submit samples for tests. Is that "pressure"?

"Inappropriately, the pistols were subjected to the extensive trials designed to provide information for adoption of a new handgun for CHP."

Ummm...let's see -- they submitted "prototypes" of a pistol of questionable design that had already shown an unhealthy tendency to blow up during use.

My goodness! ... we can't have pistols submitted for testing actually subjected to tests!

Why...that's...that's unAmerican!

[Zander]

Oops...sorry for the duplicate post.